[Red Liner]

I wonder what used diesel I will get for 5 lakhs in bangalore...

[jessie007]

Interesting information - A presentation document titled 'SIAM's position on Diesel' (2011). Many of the points stated still hold true.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by jessie007

Interesting information - A presentation document titled 'SIAM's position on Diesel' (2011). Many of the points stated still hold true.

Interesting read. Very little detail in the presentation though for someone who is interested.

The audacity that SIAM had to try and abolish the saying that Diesels are for the rich, was stunning though. Their answer was, 95% of diesel vehicles are under the million rupee range
A third of our population is below the international poverty line and roughly 70% live on less than a 100rs per day. 1 in 3 malnourished kids across the globe, are Indian. So in terms of sheer numbers, anyone who is able to own a Tata Nano, nevermind a million buck car, is relatively "rich". This organization is basing their hypothetical "rich" person on the perception of people who already own 6-7 lakh rupee cars. That, I feel, is unacceptable.

[dark.knight]

As a person who would like our environment to be better preserved, & with some basic knowledge in chemistry these are my humble views.

Which fuel is a very sensitive issue to be discussed in car forums, with the purists who feel gasoline is a leaner fuel which results in the car being lighter, quieter with easy torque and lesser particulate emissions at a much lower cost. The diesel owners in turn justify their decision by saying that the initial extra cost will be displaced by savings on regular driving, more resale with better high end torque and lesser maintenance. Diesels are without doubt noisier even in modern engines with balancer shafts but that point is quickly rubbished off as perception and something to get used to.

The truth is both fuels emit CO2, though very marginally less in diesel. Petrol cars emit slightly more O3+CO whereas diesels emit much larger volumes of NOx (particulate matter) which when inhaled outside over a period of time causes breathing related problems. The NOx also creates acid rain (polluted rainwater). All these side-effects are happening on a daily basis, any manufacturer who refutes these claims is simply protecting their interests or have zero knowledge in science.

Personally my preference is petrol but let that not make me seem biased in what really, are 2 differently polluting fuels. Most of the damage is already done by refineries before the fuel even reaches our car. State of things being what they are, we can only use our vehicles judiciously, service them as scheduled and do regular emission checks. It's the only way we can get the one thing we've always gotten for free - life sustaining pure oxygen.

[prakash_ajp]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

As a person who would like our environment to be better preserved, & with some basic knowledge in chemistry these are my humble views.

I agree with all your points and thanks for highlighting those.

Among those points where you mention that both engine options are equally polluting (and I agree) I see petrol being the right choice who is concerned about environment - for it indirectly encourages you to use your car lot lesser, which results in lesser emission

[racer_ash]

Originally Posted by prakash_ajp

I agree with all your points and thanks for highlighting those.

Among those points where you mention that both engine options are equally polluting (and I agree) I see petrol being the right choice who is concerned about environment - for it indirectly encourages you to use your car lot lesser, which results in lesser emission

True. The only way to knock senses into our brains is to make the fuel cost substantially high. As per me, money can be generated and regenerated since it is only a piece of paper. But the damage to the environment is irreversible. And we have already done enough damage that if our next generation were to question us, we would have to hang our heads in shame. It pains me to see so many people driving single on their cars. For some it may be unavoidable, but for many others, it is quite avoidable with some degree of inconvenience.

That said, in a country like India, we need more efficient (in terms of transit time as well as the use of fuel)public transport systems. We should have more and more metros and BRTS that would encourage people to shift base from their dear cars to these modes of transport which are way more eco-friendly.

I strognly feel that research should concentrate on developing alternate sources of power. Fuel cells are the ones that come into my mind. If we can spend Billions of dollars to send hi-tech robots to Mars, we should also spend similar money to develop such Green technologies to save our planet. After all, we only have one Home in an otherwise vast expansion of nothingness.

[blacksport]

Originally Posted by racer_ash

I strognly feel that research should concentrate on developing alternate sources of power. Fuel cells are the ones that come into my mind. If we can spend Billions of dollars to send hi-tech robots to Mars, we should also spend similar money to develop such Green technologies to save our planet. After all, we only have one Home in an otherwise vast expansion of nothingness.

True, but who should do it? The government? The concept of administered progress is tried and failed again and again. Now, when it comes to private corporations, they are already doing the research and would definitely be a reality when it becomes financially viable. The least we can do is to encourage such companies by buying their products? Buy a Reva for a bit of encouragement? Never, right? Until it becomes a mainstream product. It is a vicious cycle.

[racer_ash]

Originally Posted by blacksport

True, but who should do it? The government? The concept of administered progress is tried and failed again and again. Now, when it comes to private corporations, they are already doing the research and would definitely be a reality when it becomes financially viable. The least we can do is to encourage such companies by buying their products? Buy a Reva for a bit of encouragement? Never, right? Until it becomes a mainstream product. It is a vicious cycle.

But buying an electric vehicle is only shifting the point of pollution away from exhaust tube of the IC engine to the exhanust chimney of the power plant. We are still dependant on fossil fuels for generating a majority of the electricity. Even though large scale electric production is more efficient than a small IC engine burning the same fuel, with the huge amount of transmission losses and inefficient feeders, the carbon footprint still remains. Thus the need for alternate sources like fuel cells which do not cause any such pollution of the sorts.

While I agree that companies are doing their bit of research, I am only worried that the government does nothing on their part by way of providing subsidies and budget allocations like they do for the space programme.

I think we are deviating from the main topic but just wanted to put my views forward saying, it would be good if we had a third option called None of the above.

[drsingh]

Originally Posted by racer_ash

But buying an electric vehicle is only shifting the point of pollution away from exhaust tube of the IC engine to the exhanust chimney of the power plant. We are still dependant on fossil fuels for generating a majority of the electricity. Even though large scale electric production is more efficient than a small IC engine burning the same fuel, with the huge amount of transmission losses and inefficient feeders, the carbon footprint still remains. Thus the need for alternate sources like fuel cells which do not cause any such pollution of the sorts.

Fuel cells are a dead end. You need electricity to separate hydrogen and oxygen.

Decentralized renewable power like the solar powered tesla superchargers is a step in the right direction.

This will create competition and even the monopolies of inefficient power utilities will be forced to compete and invest in efficiency.

These are largely political problems. Unless a visionary like Elon Musk comes along and forces the lethargic establishment to compete and take notice.

[sgiitk]

@drsingh; I do tend to agree a bit that electrolysis for H extraction is currrently a no Go in India. However, I think in Iceland they are running a fleet of buses in Reykjavik using Methanol.

Electric cars can have a future, but currently Lithium is in increasingly short supply. So how will the batteries be made?

[drsingh]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@drsingh; I do tend to agree a bit.

Electric cars can have a future, but currently Lithium is in increasingly short supply. So how will the batteries be made?

Lithium is not in short supply. It's a matter of perception. Lithium in a Lithium ion battery is max 5% of the battery. More like salt on salad.

Tesla Motors in the USA is building a Lithium ion gigafactory in the US that will double Lithium ion battery production in the world in next 3-4 years. That will drive down costs and make the market bigger. Samsung and LG are the other big players in the game. I'm sure they will step up production to meet demand.

And the big Chinese players like BYD will step in too when the major automotive players move to an all electric road map using Lithium ion batteries.

You should search for TESLA motors road map and listen to what Elon Musk has to say. He's the man with the plan in this direction.

[TheARUN]

There has been another price hike and the most important thing is that the new Government has continued on the diesel price policy, the difference is now 16 rupees

The only thing that will stand in favour of diesel in the future is that even if they cost the same to buy, diesel and petrol, diesel vehicles will give better mileage

Looks like the game is moving diesel's way

[gsurya]

Originally Posted by TheARUN

There has been another price hike and the most important thing is that the new Government has continued on the diesel price policy, the difference is now 16 rupees

The only thing that will stand in favour of diesel in the future is that even if they cost the same to buy, diesel and petrol, diesel vehicles will give better mileage

Looks like the game is moving diesel's way

The key is Euro 5 standard. Getting Diesel there will need 60K crores of investment & will result in increase of prices. In Europe the difference between Diesel & Petrol price is less than 10% - thats what it eventually needs to get to here too.

[Atif]

Originally Posted by TheARUN

There has been another price hike and the most important thing is that the new Government has continued on the diesel price policy, the difference is now 16 rupees

The only thing that will stand in favour of diesel in the future is that even if they cost the same to buy, diesel and petrol, diesel vehicles will give better mileage

Looks like the game is moving diesel's way

Hi Arun,

Today's Petrol price is 74.71(Chennai) and diesel is 61.18(Chennai and increasing by 50 paisa/month). The difference comes to around Rs.15.

Now, considering the case of petrol engines, giving mileage of 21KMPL (As advertised by Maruthi for Celerio) and Diesel giving 23KMPL (DDIS engine), would it be advisable to go for diesel enigne, as it will attract a premium of 1 lakh minimum as premium upfront and the interest to be paid incase of long tenure.

So, what do u think is better in terms of low maintenance cost in a long run say for 3yrs ?

[KarthikK]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

I wonder what used diesel I will get for 5 lakhs in bangalore...

Plenty of choices if you're open to exploring different ages and segments of cars , but if you're looking for something no-nonsense, a Swift, i20 or a Punto can be yours for that budget range. Of course, the Swift would hold a better resale over contemporaries and has a more efficient service backup too. Being open to petrols will give you a plethora of options!