[Parm]

by launching BS3, they are testing the waters to see the demand and sale of the Gurkha., it looks like FM wants to play safe.

and if the deman justify, they might bring in Gurkha II, the one with CRDe, ofcourse at a higher price!

lets hope the production versions are not for Barbie Doll fan club!
(good one Kundun)

[4x4addict]

I personally think this is a problem with many family run companies where some kid takes over without any real world experience. Senior management is either incompetent or scared to say the truth to them.

[jeepbug]

Originally Posted by Parm

by launching BS3, they are testing the waters to see the demand and sale of the Gurkha., it looks like FM wants to play safe.

@Parm, i read the complete thread of all the guys, reading yours in the end gave me solace that some people at least under stand what is good for indian customers under 10 lac bracket, except for the plastic bumpers and skirts they have improved it in all departments.I have owned and sold 2011 model gurkha supposedly the second last ever made and now own a 2008 model gurkha which i bought recently , and a close friend owns 2009 model, believe me in all three models 2008 model is the best viz. interiors, engine response, build quality and above all fit and finish. imho gurkha far outweighs thar in level of ride comfort.
People buy a thar for around 770000 here in chandigarh,
add a hard top for 35000-55000, get bumpers changed another 7000-10000, some buy an innova seat for rear bench replacement, some even change front seats 10000-25000 more is spent on seats, so around 80000 rs are spent after buying a new thar , now for 20000 extra rupees you are getting factory fitted diff locks front and rear separate, what else we want,
but still its our "follower" mentality that restricts our decision making capacity. we just follow the trend.
my other 2 offroad vehicles are rhd mahindra CJ3B petrol and a murdered CJ3b (dieselised) for hard core offroading , i have had a gypsy in past and one of my best friends has a 550 ex army , i personally feel that nothing beats cj3b petrol in dry offroading and cj340 for wet offroading , gurkha has its own sense of security and comfort during long expeditions, which in my opinion thar cannot give i prefer yet not to put my gurkha where i put my diesel jeep.

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

Exactly, that's why i used the word in the quote! An established company must have thought about these factors, especially the market position, target audience , feasibility etc etc. For a jeep, that does not have ABS( i know thar also does not , but its priced much lower,but since this fellow is priced much higher, that would have earned it some brownie points), commanding a price of 8 big ones is simply no no. When a much better vehicle(read thar) with a much better A.S.S is available at a lesser cost why would people be willing to buy a not-so-known brand that too by giving a premium?

Its purely my personal opinion that force motors marketing/sales team went over ambitious(read greedy) while deciding the pricing of this one!

As you said, lets see the actual numbers !

@sagarpadaki ,reading all your posts i just want to ask you a very pertinent question, have u driven a thar or a gurkha on roasd or offroad, and which other vehicle have u done offrading in ever?
Please do answer me as i really want to understand how can some one be so radical about his/her opinions if they have not driven a vehicle.
P.S. i own a gurkha and jeep cj3b petrol and have driven extensively most of the offroad vehicles on sale in india below 25 lacs.
regards

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by jeepbug

@Parm, i read the complete thread of all the guys, reading yours in the end gave me solace that some people at least under stand what is good for indian customers under 10 lac bracket, except for the plastic bumpers and skirts they have improved it in all departments.I have owned and sold 2011 model gurkha supposedly the second last ever made and now own a 2008 model gurkha which i bought recently , and a close friend owns 2009 model, believe me in all three models 2008 model is the best viz. interiors, engine response, build quality and above all fit and finish. imho gurkha far outweighs thar in level of ride comfort.
People buy a thar for around 770000 here in chandigarh,
add a hard top for 35000-55000, get bumpers changed another 7000-10000, some buy an innova seat for rear bench replacement, some even change front seats 10000-25000 more is spent on seats, so around 80000 rs are spent after buying a new thar , now for 20000 extra rupees you are getting factory fitted diff locks front and rear separate, what else we want,
but still its our "follower" mentality that restricts our decision making capacity. we just follow the trend.
my other 2 offroad vehicles are rhd mahindra CJ3B petrol and a murdered CJ3b (dieselised) for hard core offroading , i have had a gypsy in past and one of my best friends has a 550 ex army , i personally feel that nothing beats cj3b petrol in dry offroading and cj340 for wet offroading , gurkha has its own sense of security and comfort during long expeditions, which in my opinion thar cannot give i prefer yet not to put my gurkha where i put my diesel jeep.


@sagarpadaki ,reading all your posts i just want to ask you a very pertinent question, have u driven a thar or a gurkha on roasd or offroad, and which other vehicle have u done offrading in ever?
Please do answer me as i really want to understand how can some one be so radical about his/her opinions if they have not driven a vehicle.
P.S. i own a gurkha and jeep cj3b petrol and have driven extensively most of the offroad vehicles on sale in india below 25 lacs.
regards

I have not driven either of them.I agree.I made the pricing statement purely from a market perspective since its available only in BS3 currently(meaning restricted market) and its priced higher than its competitor having a BS4 option.When a BS4 version comes , it will, in all probablity be priced higher. But do tell me,since i am unaware of it, what makes gurkha a better choice over thar in highway driving and off-roading? I want to understand

[roy_libran]

Regarding Pricing:

The Hard Top 4WD is priced spot on. BS3 or not! It offers more VFM than anything else in this class. It's USP's have been covered elsewhere on this thread, so no point repeating.

The Soft Top 4WD is priced plain lunar mad. Just cannot understand how you can ask for so much money without giving an AC and HT, and lesser interiors. Force Motors, if you are listening, look at this one urgently. Price this below the Thar CRDe, and this will be the one that flies off the shelves. Give AC as an optional fitment as well.

The Hard Top 2WD - Why do you even need to offer this? Who is ever going to consider this against a Scorpio, Safari, Bolero etc.? It does not come with four doors, and the competition offers significantly better interiors and NVH? This is a stupid diversification of your product portfolio and one that takes you away from your core strengths, and you could have spent that incremental money and energy on better things for the 4WD ones!

Just my thoughts...

[powertrain]

Originally Posted by jeepbug

@Parm, i read the complete thread of all the guys, reading yours in the end gave me solace that some people at least under stand what is good for indian customers under 10 lac bracket, except for the plastic bumpers and skirts they have improved it in all departments.

Hello jeepbug,
First of all, let me admit the fact that I've not driven/owned a Thar or Gurkha. But I'm all set to plonk my money in a reliable, no-nonsense 4wd. I don't know if it'll be the Thar, Gurkha or the upcoming Tata 4wd. And I was eagerly anticipating the launch of the Gurkha. And I have to say that I'm not excatly happy.
Being a happy owner of Gurkha, I would like to ask you something.
- Will you buy a new Gurkha today?
- Dont you feel that you're be overcharged for what you get?
For Eg - Mahindra launched a completely grounds-up Scorpio in 2002 with a 2.6L DI engine that produced 109 bhp @ around 6.5L, if my memory serves me correct.
I understand the fact that in the last 10-11 years, the cost have gone up significantly,but it's not as if FM has given us anything new. Apart from headlamps & dashboard,everything is pretty much the same. Refined,yes but nothing new.

Any one with a decent knowledge about automobiles will tell you that increasing the engine size to make more bhp is not the most efficient way to make power. Heck,if that's the case then why do the h** do we need turbo's. And the engineers at FM have done just that. And I'm pretty sure that the avg. figures of the new Gurkha will be lower that that of the old Gurkha or Thar.

Would you call that new or improved?!

I understand that the Thar's not perfect & Mahindra has cut corners, but it's at least corners that can be set straight. Things like hard-top, seats,snorkel & diff. locks can be added/changed. Can we change the Gurkha's engine??!!
At least Mahindra / BD Sir has given a relatively modern mechanicals to work with.
I hope that I'm not asking for the moon but I truly believe that FM could have give us a CRDI hard top Gurkha @ 8.5L with snorkel/ diff locks as options. It could have satisfied a larger customer base.

Regards,
Varun

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by powertrain

I understand that the Thar's not perfect & Mahindra has cut corners, but it's at least corners that can be set straight. Things like hard-top, seats,snorkel & diff. locks can be added/changed. Can we change the Gurkha's engine??!!
At least Mahindra / BD Sir has given a relatively modern mechanicals to work with.

This is exactly why jeepbug asked about offroading experience. You don't need CRDe for offroading. CRDe is for on-road driving. NA engine are better suited for the kind of offroading that happens in India.

[Kandisa]

Like many people i was also eagerly anticipating what Force finally comes up with. I am not much bothered about that shockingly modified black+orange model, the 'triple 4 tagline' or the awkward color schemes displayed. May be Force has just gone a bit overboard because of the so called 'media launch'. If not any other option, they are definitely going to offer the vehicle in black and that should satisfy most of the prospective buyers. Once the official brochure is available in their website, hopefully we will get to see some less-flashy variants.

Looking at the fit and finish level of previous generation models, the new-gen Gurkha is definitely more than acceptable from an utility vehicle perspective. More so, keeping in mind the kind of finish levels the initial batches of Mahindra Thar had!! Though it doesn't make sense to launch a BS3 model in present scenario, i would like to believe this is just to convey the message that the vehicle has been revamped and the BS4 version is on its way. Pricing of the top end 4wd hard top is really good, again keeping in mind the prices of available models in the market, and i do hope the BS4 version will not shoot much beyond (or will be just around) the magic figure of 10 L on road. At least hopefully people don't need to fiddle with core mechanical parts like braking and stuff and run around for a plethora of modifications, some of which are absolutely necessary, to make a brand new vehicle suitable for practical use.

Though, all said and done, again, it is not for the masses (and i am not trying to attach any macho image here ). And knowing the reputation of the company, people who plan to buy a 4wd vehicle within the next 6 months or so, should also not wait for this product. But for someone like me who has been living with an old jeep for quite some time and need some good time for monetary replenishment, the new Gurkha does look to be very promising provided Force comes up with a decently expanded network of sales and services. Time to save money for grabbing a BS4 version in a 3 years time line .

[tsk1979]

What is the kerb weight of the New gurkha? I could not find it mentioned anywhere.

[powertrain]

Originally Posted by Samurai

This is exactly why jeepbug asked about offroading experience. You don't need CRDe for offroading. CRDe is for on-road driving. NA engine are better suited for the kind of offroading that happens in India.

Point taken Sam. But then it raises 2 questions:-

- How many of us have the liberty to own 2 cars,1 off roader & a regular car for normal use?

- Agreed that NA engines are better suited for off roading, but does that mean that CRDI engines cannot be adapted for off roading? I believe that the Thar provides a fine balance between on road performance & off road ability.If I'm correct,most of the hard-core 4wd's in the international scene run on CRDI engines.

All I'm saying is that FM could have given us a CRDI engine at this price,especially when they have not significantly upgraded any other aspect of what is an able offroader.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
P.S - I've nothing against the Gurkha. In fact,Dr.Mohan's Gurkha is my wallpaper!!

MODS - I hope we are not going

Regards,
Varun

[Harbir]

Do we know exactly how much of the gelandwagen is under the Gurkha?

Is it the same frame and suspension? same articulation? similar traction in muddy or uneven terrain?

Do the mechanicals have reliability equal to the gelandwagen?

or is this this only remotely related to the gelandwagen?

More specifically, if a gelandwagen expert took the gurkha apart, how many parts would he find that would swap directly with a real gelandwagen?

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by powertrain

Point taken Sam. But then it raises 2 questions:-
- Agreed that NA engines are better suited for off roading, but does that mean that CRDI engines cannot be adapted for off roading? I believe that the Thar provides a fine balance between on road performance & off road ability.If I'm correct,most of the hard-core 4wd's in the international scene run on CRDI engines.

The way I understand this, and open to correction here from the experts:
Low Displacement CRDI engines would not be able to match the torque characteristics required in an off-roader, at low RPMs (800 to 1500 band). They will typically generate a respectable level of Torque above 1500 RPM, up to around 2200 RPM.
To achieve the desirable low end Torque characteristics, you need to have large displacement (long stroke) engines, which again pushes up the vehicle costs significantly, pricing it out of the target consumers in India. That's why we have not yet seen this happen in India.
There is another aspect - The NA Engines, have ridiculously long lives, and very low failure rates, which is not true (yet) for CRDIs.

[codelust]

Originally Posted by powertrain

For Eg - Mahindra launched a completely grounds-up Scorpio in 2002 with a 2.6L DI engine that produced 109 bhp @ around 6.5L, if my memory serves me correct.
I understand the fact that in the last 10-11 years, the cost have gone up significantly,but it's not as if FM has given us anything new. Apart from headlamps & dashboard,everything is pretty much the same. Refined,yes but nothing new.

Not really an accurate comparison. You'll have to compare the pricing of the 2002 4x4 Scorpio with the Gurkha to make it more apples-to-apples. A 4x4 has two of the following - driveshafts, diffs and other assorted bits and pieces. And as mentioned elsewhere on the thread, you can't ignore the cost of the diff locks.

Originally Posted by powertrain

I understand that the Thar's not perfect & Mahindra has cut corners, but it's at least corners that can be set straight. Things like hard-top, seats,snorkel & diff. locks can be added/changed. Can we change the Gurkha's engine??!!
At least Mahindra / BD Sir has given a relatively modern mechanicals to work with.
I hope that I'm not asking for the moon but I truly believe that FM could have give us a CRDI hard top Gurkha @ 8.5L with snorkel/ diff locks as options. It could have satisfied a larger customer base.

There are at least 3 different HT options in the market now for the Thar, they all come with their own issues and nowhere close to a good factory fitted HT. You'll be surprised how much of a niggle a leaky HT can be when you're touring or offroading and there's heavy rain or snow. I can tell you, it is not fun at all. It is even worse fun attempting for the nth time to get it fixed.

Nor is the case that the Thar is a new platform. From putting together the various obvious & non-obvious hints by BD and gang, what I understand is that they had to put together a vehicle using only the existing parts bin.

For a tourer or an offroader what matters is bulletproof reliability, ability to cruise at ~100 KPH on the highways without wobbling and good stopping power - in a package that is non-complicated, preferably with an engine that produces a lot of torque. A new engine is not going to be cheap to introduce (the price will go up) and the vehicle is certainly not going to move major volumes. M&M can afford to do that with a Scorpio or a Bolero because those models move volumes.

None of this is to say I love the state of affairs. I wish I could get my dream 4x4 at ~8L with AC, HT and decent interiors. But, I don't think it will happen.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

What is the kerb weight of the New gurkha? I could not find it mentioned anywhere.

+1 to that question.

Also, did the old one have an immobilizer? Is it there in the new one too?

[Kandisa]

Originally Posted by codelust

..For a tourer or an offroader what matters is bulletproof reliability, ability to cruise at ~100 KPH on the highways without wobbling and good stopping power - in a package that is non-complicated...

You said it all. There is no purpose of having a good engine, capable of doing 140+, when the vehicle doesn't have a supporting braking system to make it stop even at a speed around 90.

Originally Posted by Harbir

Do we know exactly how much of the gelandwagen is under the Gurkha?

May be in the inverse proportion as their prices

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by Harbir

Do we know exactly how much of the gelandwagen is under the Gurkha?

Is it the same frame and suspension? same articulation? similar traction in muddy or uneven terrain?

Do the mechanicals have reliability equal to the gelandwagen?

or is this this only remotely related to the gelandwagen?

More specifically, if a gelandwagen expert took the gurkha apart, how many parts would he find that would swap directly with a real gelandwagen?

Nada, Zilch, Zero. The only thing Gurkha has in common with the older G-Wagen is the basic body line.

Power Train != Gwagen
Chasis != Gwagen
Differentials/Axle != Gwagen

The Gurkha and G-wagen share the same relationship the Ambassador shares with the Porche 911, i.e They both have round headlights.