[spiler]

Originally Posted by amalji

Where did you get the info from?
============But engine will continue to come from Japan.

Sorry i was wrong. Yes the Etios Diesel engines & transmission are imported from Japan as you rightly mentioned. Its in the case of Innova/T-Fort that they import from Thailand.

[nkrishnap]

Originally Posted by amalji

One thing that the new launch has done to the old customers ( like me ) is the increase in resale value. My friend ( Vinu ) will be selling his old Liva ( probably, he is still in 2 minds whether to go for the new Liva or stick with the old one ) for 5.9 lakhs ( He had bought the Liva GD 1 year, 2 months back for 6.1 lakhs on the road price ). Just 20,000 depriciation after 1 year of usage is great. I also thought about changing the car for the new model. Then decided against it. Decided to take the harder route.
That's to research more on the technical changes on the new model that makes the NVH so much better and make the changes accordingly. I got a good contact in Toyota for discussing these stuffs as well.

The resale is too good to be true. Your friend's sheer luck got him that price. I have personally experienced the pathetic resale value of Liva. That was one of the reason why sold it, simply could not digest the offers made from the Toyota U Trust division itself. The outside market was not good either.

Originally Posted by sups

This is too good to be true. Is the 5.9L quoted price by toyota themselves in case of exchange? I thought the new launch would make the resale price very pathetic for the old model?

Whatever launch or upgrades happens to the Etios twins, it does not command a good resale value inspite of being a product from Toyota, atleast in Bangalore.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

The resale is too good to be true. Your friend's sheer luck got him that price. I have personally experienced the pathetic resale value of Liva. That was one of the reason why sold it, simply could not digest the offers made from the Toyota U Trust division itself. The outside market was not good either.

Whatever launch or upgrades happens to the Etios twins, it does not command a good resale value inspite of being a product from Toyota, atleast in Bangalore.

1. Was your Liva Petrol or Diesel ? I'm talking about Diesel and he did have multiple quotes in the range of 5.75 Lakhs and above. So, I don't consider that as sheer luck.
2. Facelift and price hike does have an impact on resale value of a car. In Liva's case, there were multiple price hikes and even increase in taxes.
3. In Cochin and generally in Kerala, there are a lot of buyers for a Toyota for the simple reason that there are a lot of people who had already experienced the reliability of a Toyota while working in middle east.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

They should be incurring huge import costs on the engine & transmission then! They should have looked at localizing these 100% without compromising on the quality of components and price the car even better.

Toyota and Hyundai decided against manufacturing diesel engines in India because of the unpredictable policy of diesel pricing by our central government. Regardless, I would always prefer a Made in Japan engine and transmission, even if it comes at a premium of 30,000 or so.

Our second car - The Maruti 800 first model was made in Japan, and it offered absolutely hassle free performance for the 5 years of ownership. We had bought that car for Rs. 60,000 and when we sold it after 5 years, we got 63,000. Even now, after more than 2 decades, I hear that the car runs fine.

The initial batch of Qualis for which engines were manufactured in Japan fetched a great resale value after 4 to 5 years when production switched to Thailand. Even Qualis had to fight the initial negative sentiments from the market where the critics said that Toyota released an outdated model in India. But, when years passed by, people started recognizing the hassle free ownership experience of a Toyota.

Originally Posted by subratasenn

Amalji, I would be waiting for your post on this. What have they done in the new Etios/Liva that makes the NVH substantially lower? Even I am sure they can be added on to my existing car.

I had a talk with the technical head on this yesterday as well. What I can confirm is that he is actively trying to experiment on his own old model Liva.
Yesterday, we also discussed the areas where additional damping was done and to try out alternate damping material of same or superior quality used by Toyota on the facelifted models.
So, this is what we are trying to find out now.

1. In addition to the hydraulic mounts, where else did Toyota add extra damping materials. We have identified 2 areas as of now?
2. Is there a quality difference in the damping material used ?

Once, we get answers to the above 2 question, I'll explore ways to replicate the same effect using alternate ways.

There is also an update regarding the hydraulic engine mounts. Only the right mount is changed compared to previous model. The left mount remains the same. So, even to switch to the new mounts, the cost should be less than 4,000/- only.

Originally Posted by subratasenn

I love my car at 10K+ kilometre, only seven month old. It's a lovely car, and I intend to keep it for at least another three years.
Most of the changes in the new Etios/ Liva do not bother me much. They have, thankfully not changed the heart of the car. Only we need to know the trick to reducing the NVH. That would be enough for me!

I plan to keep it for 10 years because I feel the car is worth it. Unless ofcourse, the Toyota Dear Qin is as practical and cheap to maintain as the Etios.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

...Whatever launch or upgrades happens to the Etios twins, it does not command a good resale value inspite of being a product from Toyota, atleast in Bangalore.

+1. I remember talking about a pre-owned Liva which had done very few kilometers. The value quoted by the A$$ was quite unlike Toyotas (can't recollect it now). And I remember telling my friend that we can get it for even lesser price.

[nkrishnap]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

+1. I remember talking about a pre-owned Liva which had done very few kilometers. The value quoted by the A$$ was quite unlike Toyotas (can't recollect it now). And I remember telling my friend that we can get it for even lesser price.

Whatever the model or year the Etios/Liva are, they do not command the resale value like an Innova does though both are from Toyota's stable.

If I had retained my Liva any longer, the market value of it would have been lesser than the outstanding loan amount within the first year. . It simply would have been a liability to atleast to me.

You can find both petrol and diesel Etios and Liva for quite a lesser price in Bangalore.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

+1. I remember talking about a pre-owned Liva which had done very few kilometers. The value quoted by the A$$ was quite unlike Toyotas (can't recollect it now). And I remember telling my friend that we can get it for even lesser price.

Could you please give me contact information regarding any broker who might be having a Liva GD / GDSP ? This is for a potential buyer.

Tried searching Toyota U-Trust. With Petrol, yes there are a lot available. With Diesel, there is not even a single Liva Diesel car for sale in Toyota U-Trust.

Also, called up Vinu to know the quote he received from Toyota U-Trust. He told that the highest quote he got was from Toyota U-Trust, Kozhikode - 5.65 lakhs ( provided he buys the new car from them ). So, that's reasonable resale even from Toyota resale. He is still very hesitant to sell his Liva GD and has asked for 6 Lakhs from the potential buyer who quoted 5.9 Lakhs

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by amalji

Could you please give me contact information regarding any broker who might be having a Liva GD / GDSP ? This is for a potential buyer. ...

The one which I was talking about, was with Advaith Advantage in Bangalore. That was about 3-4 months back. I believe you are looking for one in Kerala; will definitely let you know when I come across one.

[subratasenn]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

The one which I was talking about, was with Advaith Advantage in Bangalore. That was about 3-4 months back. I believe you are looking for one in Kerala; will definitely let you know when I come across one.

Well, looking in Kolkata, I couldn't find any for my friend. Getting a GD Liva second hand is equally difficult in Kolkata. Even an Etios. If Liva/Etios are cheap in Bengalore, you may consider sending them here.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by subratasenn

Well, looking in Kolkata, I couldn't find any for my friend. Getting a GD Liva second hand is equally difficult in Kolkata. Even an Etios. If Liva/Etios are cheap in Bengalore, you may consider sending them here.

One of the reasons for low re-sale in Bangalore could be the taxi market. Off-late, there are huge number of taxis doing the airport runs and this might have ruined the market value of Etios / Liva.

[subratasenn]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

One of the reasons for low re-sale in Bangalore could be the taxi market. Off-late, there are huge number of taxis doing the airport runs and this might have ruined the market value of Etios / Liva.

A good taxi market should be good for a car. In Kolkata, besides regular Amby, all the white taxis are Swift Dzire and Tata Indigo. May be that helps Etios here.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

They should be incurring huge import costs on the engine & transmission then! They should have looked at localizing these 100% without compromising on the quality of components and price the car even better.

Agreed. Now if Toyota localizes engine and transmission of Etios/Liva, that should bring the cost further down. Now, the question is, how much is Maruti Suzuki overpriced in India?

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by subratasenn

...Now, the question is, how much is Maruti Suzuki overpriced in India?

The sales figures say that people don't bother much about Maruti over pricing "some" of their cars which also means Maruti has struck the right chords with the mass market consumers!

Inspite of the legendary Toyota quality, people still have a problem with the pricing of the Etios/Liva models. If Toyota had priced Etios / Liva couple of ten thousands of rupees lesser than Swift / Dzire, it may have enjoyed better numbers and people might have been tempted to overlook the cheap interiors.

And what now Toyota is focusing to bring in the facelifts, those should have been there in the first version itself. I am still NOT sure people are going to give it a second thought, until & unless they re-design the centre console too.

If Toyota had brought a similar looking console, seats & interiors like the Swift, and then priced it at a premium, people would have preferred Liva over the Swift I believe.

I am a common man & the way I see Figo's success :

Figo has cheap interiors; but then it's priced cheaper too
Figo has lesser power; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has lesser refinement; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has lesser FE; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo does not have rear PW; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has more space than Swift; AND it's STILL priced lesser
Figo has better ride quality; AND it's STILL priced lesser

[KarthikK]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

Inspite of the legendary Toyota quality, people still have a problem with the pricing of the Etios/Liva models. If Toyota had priced Etios / Liva couple of ten thousands of rupees lesser than Swift / Dzire, it may have enjoyed better numbers and people might have been tempted to overlook the cheap interiors.

And what now Toyota is focusing to bring in the facelifts, those should have been there in the first version itself. I am still NOT sure people are going to give it a second thought, until & unless they re-design the centre console too.

If Toyota had brought a similar looking console, seats & interiors like the Swift, and then priced it at a premium, people would have preferred Liva over the Swift I believe.

I am a common man & the way I see Figo's success :

Figo has cheap interiors; but then it's priced cheaper too
Figo has lesser power; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has lesser refinement; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has lesser FE; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo does not have rear PW; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has more space than Swift; AND it's STILL priced lesser
Figo has better ride quality; AND it's STILL priced lesser

+1 to this, Swiftnfurious!
I agree totally, especially with the last part. When I was in the market for a diesel hatch, I observed that the bare bones Liva G.D SP was terribly overpriced for the features list (no defogger, no tacho, etc) and quality of interiors it offered. In fact, it costed slightly higher than the Figo Titanium top end variant which came with all the bells and whistles. Both were retailing at around 7.3L back then.

Like what you mention, the brand value of these Etios twins in Bangalore has taken a hit due to the taxi image. Of late, there are large fleets of airport taxis consisting of yellow board Etios sedans. Maybe Toyota should have restricted the sale for taxi usage a bit, like how Tata placed restrictions on Vista from entering taxi fleets.

Though Liva is a good all rounder from the Toyota stable, I wouldn't really categorize Liva as competition for bigger diesel hatches like the i20 / Punto / Fabia / Polo, at least not until Liva offers a V.D in the lineup (still does not after facelift??). I always wondered why they should not offer a loaded variant when everyone in the market does. I know at least a couple of relatives who liked but skipped the Liva just for this reason - only a bare bones version was available when they were ready to pay more for a Toyota with features.

A Liva V.D would help a lot in taking the competition to the bigger diesel hatches. It is otherwise a good, balanced car which has all the proper backing of a fantastic brand and service network.

Originally Posted by subratasenn

A good taxi market should be good for a car.

Not necessarily true. In my opinion, it destroys the desirability factor for prospective (white-board) private owners. India is largely a sentimental society where a car is viewed as a status symbol with show-off value. Many people stay away from buying Taxi-branded cars fearing that they will be ridiculed by friends and family. Indica suffered from the same effect, the Logan suffered from the same effect and I have personally seen people overlooking the Etios sedan for the same reason here in Bangalore. In my opinion they should have just restricted the Etios sales from flooding taxi fleets here, like how Maruti has restricted Ertiga sales for yellow board owners.

Thankfully the Liva does not suffer too much from the Taxi image problem, but the sedan does, at least in Bangalore.

[Vid6639]

This was the first feedback I gave to Toyota in 2011 when we had gone to review the Liva and Etios diesel in 2011.

I specifically questioned why there was no V-D or Vx-D variant when even Maruti has launched the Swift ZDi which is loaded. The response was that diesel model will only be targeted at people who have very high monthly running and they usually don't opt for high end features since they want to reduce monthly expenses.

I didn't buy that and even now it's the same story. People look at the Liva and then to Ford Figo Titanium or Ritz ZDi. The Liva gets ignored cause it is more like the taxi variant.

While the Etios has received much needed upgrades and the V-D SP model is a good option, it's still priced higher than it should be. I think it is more than 1lakh over the Dzire.

[nkrishnap]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

I am a common man & the way I see Figo's success :

Figo has cheap interiors; but then it's priced cheaper too
Figo has lesser power; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has lesser refinement; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has lesser FE; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo does not have rear PW; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has more space than Swift; AND it's STILL priced lesser
Figo has better ride quality; AND it's STILL priced lesser

+1. The price with the Liva espcially has gone wrong and the sales numbers only justifies it.

Originally Posted by KarthikK

Thankfully the Liva does not suffer too much from the Taxi image problem, but the sedan does, at least in Bangalore.

Off late, the Liva is seen quite a few yellow boards. There is no such restriction for the yellow board on the Liva. In face, Liva is slowly taking up the Vista- yellow board space.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

While the Etios has received much needed upgrades and the V-D SP model is a good option, it's still priced higher than it should be. I think it is more than 1lakh over the Dzire.

Rightly put, not only it is receiving upgrades, but also increasing the prices with each upgrade on an already overpriced car. The upgrades here is not adding features, its changing the interior color combination and the improving the NVH

[amalji]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

The sales figures say that people don't bother much about Maruti over pricing "some" of their cars which also means Maruti has struck the right chords with the mass market consumers!

Maruti over prizing happens because Maruti have to pay a royalty of 5% to Suzuki. ie, for a 7 Lakh Swift, they pay Rs. 35,000 as Royalty to Suzuki.
Maruti's advantages are its sales and service network which reaches every nook and corner of the country. So, almost anything that Maruti manufactures becomes a hit. Had Dzire been manufactured by any other company in India, it would have sold less than 1000 per month.

And there is a myth going the rounds that Maruti is cheap to maintain. My uncle who liked the Liva raised a concern that he heard Toyota is a foreign brand and hence costlier to maintain than a Maruti. I showed him my mother's Liva's service bills, and he understood that there is no other diesel car cheaper to maintain than an Etios/Liva. But, the fact is that people still 'think' that Maruti is cheaper to maintain while facts says that even a current generation Ford vehicle is cheaper to maintain than a Maruti.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

Inspite of the legendary Toyota quality, people still have a problem with the pricing of the Etios/Liva models. If Toyota had priced Etios / Liva couple of ten thousands of rupees lesser than Swift / Dzire, it may have enjoyed better numbers and people might have been tempted to overlook the cheap interiors.

The fact is Toyota chose to invest the money elsewhere. While Maruti invested on better interiors and a powerful engine, Toyota invested on practicality, reliability, a better drivable engine ( read combo of bigger engine and smaller turbo aka better city drivability ) and even better parts used inside the engine like in the case of piezo electric injectors. The former is easier to identify for the customer since they are seen more clearly. The later is in accordance with the Toyota philosophy of creating durable, practical and ergonomic cars.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

And what now Toyota is focusing to bring in the facelifts, those should have been there in the first version itself. I am still NOT sure people are going to give it a second thought, until & unless they re-design the centre console too.

I agree, these should have been there in the first version itself. Especially the NVH and colour combinations. The red ( an old looking red ) and black combination used on the VXD variants of Etios was one of the worst colour combinations I've ever seen. Not sure, what the designers were thinking.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

If Toyota had brought a similar looking console, seats & interiors like the Swift, and then priced it at a premium, people would have preferred Liva over the Swift I believe.

Again, Toyota design philosophy is not according to what people want from them. It's according to what they think makes sense to the people in long run. So, as you mentioned, the easier bet would have been to give a car like the Swift and charge a premium. That would have sold for sure. I'm glad that Toyota didn't do that and instead concentrated on giving a car with good fundamentals at the cost of gizmos. But would I have preferred a car with a strong fundamentals and gizmos ? Yes, I certainly would.

The same question was asked to Toyota chief in India regarding why they didn't take the easier route of introducing the Yaris, and his answer was that Yaris would have been an easy release for Toyota. But, then it would have taken the same fate as the Jazz which was considered over-prized inspite of being such a fantastic package.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

I am a common man & the way I see Figo's success :

Figo has cheap interiors; but then it's priced cheaper too
Figo has lesser power; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has lesser refinement; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has lesser FE; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo does not have rear PW; but then it's priced lesser too
Figo has more space than Swift; AND it's STILL priced lesser
Figo has better ride quality; AND it's STILL priced lesser

And Ford India still continues to be a loss making company in India. The question is if Ford sells a car on loss, should Toyota do the same thing or not ? And Toyotas are not known to do that anywhere in the world. So, why should they do that in India which is after all a small market for them. They would instead hold on to their design philosophies.

Having driven the Fiesta to Munnar and back recently, the experience of driving an Etios is much superior ( read peppier, more ergonomic ). The difference was felt as soon as I switched cars after the trip.

And even though, the Indian customers have given average response to Etios/Liva, it's not the same in South Africa. The Etios/Liva started at number 7, stabilized at number 4, and now is at number 2 and 3 as far as sales is concerned. The only cars that sell more in number there are Toyota Hilux and VW Polo.

Originally Posted by KarthikK

+1 to this, Swiftnfurious!
Like what you mention, the brand value of these Etios twins in Bangalore has taken a hit due to the taxi image. Of late, there are large fleets of airport taxis consisting of yellow board Etios sedans. Maybe Toyota should have restricted the sale for taxi usage a bit, like how Tata placed restrictions on Vista from entering taxi fleets.

Toyota's are taxi market's favorite in many parts of the world, and it continues to be so in India. Their previous releases like Innova and Qualis were pouched by taxi fleets for the hassle free experience and practicality it offers. The easiest way to shy away taxi customers is to cramp interior space and reduce boot space. And I'm glad Toyota did not do it.

Originally Posted by KarthikK

A Liva V.D would help a lot in taking the competition to the bigger diesel hatches. It is otherwise a good, balanced car which has all the proper backing of a fantastic brand and service network.

+1 to that. I find it completely illogical that Toyota does not have a VD variant for Liva

Originally Posted by Vid6639

I specifically questioned why there was no V-D or Vx-D variant when even Maruti has launched the Swift ZDi which is loaded. The response was that diesel model will only be targeted at people who have very high monthly running and they usually don't opt for high end features since they want to reduce monthly expenses.

Toyota got it wrong there. People in India buy diesel to drive more kms, not to save on cost. In most cases, the monthly expenditure will remain the same.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

While the Etios has received much needed upgrades and the V-D SP model is a good option, it's still priced higher than it should be. I think it is more than 1lakh over the Dzire.

But, then Dzire cannot be called a sedan. It's an extended hatch with a boot space comparable to Ford Figo.