[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by ashlil

Really? Environmental concern is storm in a tea cup?


Have you been following this issue with some interest or is is it just a knee jerk reaction from you? The old lorries have been banned. The big lorries that are not Delhi-bound will be diverted.



Isn't there already a fine on burning garbage? Just recently the NGT increased the fine.


The ban on big diesel engined cars is one of the measures and not the only one. "They" have done more than that.



I think most would agree that somebody who can buy a car with a 2 litre diesel engine is pretty much above average joe. So I fail to see the coffin of average joe, let alone the nail.


Maybe so. But on this occasion, it is not very evident.

We can argue endlessly. That does not make the legislation right.
What about Auto rickshaws (Petrol + Kerosene driven ones), and motorbikes and mopeds and small goods trucks and all the rest of the polluters?

Fact is that we have bans galore but little or no enforcement.
Diesel vehicles alone cannot be said to be the root cause of all pollution in India. There are a myriad other reasons as well, some of which have been outlined above.

You're asking about me and a possible knee jerk reaction. I am stating that this ban itself is a knee jerk reaction on the part of government and this type of reaction is very typical in situations where no one has seriously thought things through properly.

The "soft target" for Indian Government and every "socialist/activist/apologist" out there is still the consuming class of people - those who pay taxes and get pretty much nothing back as ROI!

[McLaren Rulez]

I doubt this half measure will be in any way effective. It gives the impression of doing something but that's all it does.

It makes more sense to hike diesel prices in a progressive fashion and make it expensive to drive around in large inefficient cars. Same goes for the odd-even rule (hiking petrol prices is far more logical).

[heydj]

Via Delhi every day other state vehicles pass, these need to be stopped. A blanket ban needs to be there across North India and every vehicle needs to adhere to pollution norms.

I say don't ban anything, instead have super strong pollution norms with fines up-to 1% of vehicle value every-time caught without pollution certificate.

[GrammarNazi]

http://m.economictimes.com/industry/...medium=twitter
Link : Registration banned Effective From January 1, 2016 ?

How naive of us to think this was judicial activism !

We ALL know December is a low sales month. Moreover many people deferred their SUV purchase decision waiting for GST.

Car sales would be routed through other states & registered by 31st in Delhi & NCR.

This panic buying will exhaust alot of the leftover stock that car makers generally dispose through deep discounts.

Activists think that courts are doing a good job, car makers make a bumper dhamaka before the new year.

In January next year, this ruling would be stayed until they can "find a better method" to prevent pollution. Sale of fresh stick resumes.

Oh! And children are relieved they don't have to go to school coz its 'too polluted' outside.

Kejriwal will honestly get the roads vacuumed & this'll create the impression that a drastic reduction has been achieved.

[rdhawan15]

Originally Posted by vagu

My views might sound a bit harsh and idealistic but I was born and raised up in Delhi and hate to see in its current state. Its just become a city of traffic jams. I really hope that people cooperate and Delhi becomes breathable again.

It is good to know that you care for Delhi. I am born and brought up in Delhi too. Coming to the current set of problem, you need to understand that Delhi's current population of 25 million or 2.5 crore has doubled since 1990. There is absolutely no space or infrastructure in this tiny city to support so many people. The SC and the Government can go on making new laws and serve bans left-right and centre. But, nobody seems to be giving a thought to the fundamental problem of the city. I mean how can the city support so many people?

What we see on the roads is a failure of urban planners and successive Governments who have been at the helm.

Pollution, that we see in Delhi today, is a result of uncontrolled migration into Delhi. And, why do we only talk about Air Pollution. Look at Delhi's water or for that matter soil.

The city needs immediate attention. However, a piece-meal approach by populist Governments can only mean that more and more migrants will drop in each year and the entire land, air and water will be exploited and misused by all.

So, for someone who cares for his health, he needs to move out of Delhi. Sadly, that is the only way it appears that one could live a life of peace and healthy happiness.

Source of Delhi's population numbers: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/d.../1/370786.html

[ashlil]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

We can argue endlessly. That does not make the legislation right.

We don't have to argue at all. Feel free to stop anytime. I believe we are arguing because we think we have a point and we feel the need to share it. What makes legislation right, then? Is it not the logic behind it? If it is the logic, should it not be argued?

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

What about Auto rickshaws (Petrol + Kerosene driven ones), and motorbikes and mopeds and small goods trucks and all the rest of the polluters?

The same judgment includes direction to convert all taxis to CNG. I have pointed out before that ban on large engined diesel cars is just one of a multi-pronged strategy. But, that is beside the point. Let's agree that not all sources of pollution have been addressed. So what? Should we wait till every single pollutant has been taken care of before we act? Why?

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Fact is that we have bans galore but little or no enforcement.

So what? Just because there is little enforcement of anti-eve-teasing laws, should we legalize eve-teasing?

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Diesel vehicles alone cannot be said to be the root cause of all pollution in India. There are a myriad other reasons as well, some of which have been outlined above.

There is NO root cause (other than existence of human being) for all pollution in India. Pollution is result of a myriad of reasons (as you, yourself, have so eloquently put). The proposed solution is also multi-pronged. I have been pointing this out again and again, there have been other initiatives as well.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

You're asking about me and a possible knee jerk reaction. I am stating that this ban itself is a knee jerk reaction on the part of government and this type of reaction is very typical in situations where no one has seriously thought things through properly.

I asked you about possibility of a knee jerk reaction on your part, simply because you have completely ignored other initiatives. In past few months there have been several rules/controls/orders by NGT, Delhi government, central government and the courts. The ban on diesel car is just one ruling among many others.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

The "soft target" for Indian Government and every "socialist/activist/apologist" out there is still the consuming class of people - those who pay taxes and get pretty much nothing back as ROI!

Here, "soft target" is an euphemism for people having enough spare cash to buy cars with more than 2lts engine. Not exactly soft, are they? I protest your branding of "socialist/activist/apologist" and I don't think you get to certify who is socialist and who is nationalist. Besides, there is a vast consuming class of people between a nano and a Jetta, who are not affected by this ruling. They may not get anything back for their taxes, but that has little relevance to the ruling in discussion.

[Guna]

Someone would have already posted these, but this is going to happen and the SC decision will be self defeating

1. SUVs will have smaller capacity but yet higher power output engines
2. Many SUVs will now have bellow 2000 cc engines (normal ones, not the high forced induction type). This will make them to run strained and probably emit more pollutants
3. Potential SUV owners can/will buy 2 or 3 small diesel cars with the same money

Other impact
High demand for the likes of Creta, CRV (Mitsubishi must be Repenting for having discontinued the petrol SUV Outlander)

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by ashlil

We don't have to argue at all. Feel free to stop anytime. I believe we are arguing because we think we have a point and we feel the need to share it. What makes legislation right, then? Is it not the logic behind it? If it is the logic, should it not be argued?


The same judgment includes direction to convert all taxis to CNG. I have pointed out before that ban on large engined diesel cars is just one of a multi-pronged strategy. But, that is beside the point. Let's agree that not all sources of pollution have been addressed. So what? Should we wait till every single pollutant has been taken care of before we act? Why?

So what? Just because there is little enforcement of anti-eve-teasing laws, should we legalize eve-teasing?



There is NO root cause (other than existence of human being) for all pollution in India. Pollution is result of a myriad of reasons (as you, yourself, have so eloquently put). The proposed solution is also multi-pronged. I have been pointing this out again and again, there have been other initiatives as well.


I asked you about possibility of a knee jerk reaction on your part, simply because you have completely ignored other initiatives. In past few months there have been several rules/controls/orders by NGT, Delhi government, central government and the courts. The ban on diesel car is just one ruling among many others.


Here, "soft target" is an euphemism for people having enough spare cash to buy cars with more than 2lts engine. Not exactly soft, are they? I protest your branding of "socialist/activist/apologist" and I don't think you get to certify who is socialist and who is nationalist. Besides, there is a vast consuming class of people between a nano and a Jetta, who are not affected by this ruling. They may not get anything back for their taxes, but that has little relevance to the ruling in discussion.

Let me put it this way in answer to your militant tone of voice.

If the government and the powers that be, were to address the issues of environmental impact, pollution, safety etc in a properly planned, holistic manner with a proper long term view, then I would be completely on board.
Half hearted, fragmented initiatives leave me cold.

I will certainly air these views because I am not a socialist/ nationalist/ activist/ apologist or any other, but the fact is, that I am an honest tax payer and I have earned my money honestly. No one, but no one, has the right to decide about what car I spend my money on, except me.

Governments cannot issue "Fatwas" of this nature without full and proper reasoning and even then, these should be issued if at all, only as a part of an overall "holistic" policy which encompasses all the other "ills" that we are prone to in this country of ours.

I don't think that by driving a 2.2 litre Diesel Scorpio, that one is going to seriously cause choking hazards to those 50 million people.

I would suggest there is more danger from those dirty little mopeds and motorbikes and Phat Phats and Share Autos that operate around the fringes of Delhi, most of which run on a combination of petrol, kerosene and are held together by chewing gum and bits of string. I also suggest that the Great and Barbaric Festival of Diwali alone, creates more and worse poisonous pollution in Delhi and other parts of India than any blessed (new generation) Diesel Car does! Why not then, ban Crackers and Fireworks during Diwali?

[Car-tya]

Originally Posted by Turbo_Charger

I think we as a country have the habit of not doing anything for the majority of our time and are more than happy with the "chalta hai" attitude. It's only when the water rises above our nose that we panic and give knee jerk reactions to be barely able to survive and postpone the problem to another day instead of finding the root cause and dealing with it maturely with all the facts. The irony is that despite all of this we take offense when someone mentions us a Banana Republic. If this is not a case of being one, what is?

Originally Posted by rdhawan15

It is good to know that you care for Delhi. I am born and brought up in Delhi too. Coming to the current set of problem, you need to understand that Delhi's current population of 25 million or 2.5 crore has doubled since 1990. There is absolutely no space or infrastructure in this tiny city to support so many people. The SC and the Government can go on making new laws and serve bans left-right and centre. But, nobody seems to be giving a thought to the fundamental problem of the city. I mean how can the city support so many people?

What we see on the roads is a failure of urban planners and successive Governments who have been at the helm.

Pollution, that we see in Delhi today, is a result of uncontrolled migration into Delhi. And, why do we only talk about Air Pollution. Look at Delhi's water or for that matter soil.

The city needs immediate attention. However, a piece-meal approach by populist Governments can only mean that more and more migrants will drop in each year and the entire land, air and water will be exploited and misused by all.

So, for someone who cares for his health, he needs to move out of Delhi. Sadly, that is the only way it appears that one could live a life of peace and healthy happiness.

Source of Delhi's population numbers: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/d.../1/370786.html

Such a big decision implemented with loop holes all around and comical sense. I guess what they say about common sense not being common any more is true. Wonder when it will come to a point that we start making sane decisions both on governance and common sense prevalence. Time and again we have made mistakes and have reaped the repercussions. Pollution has been a rising concern since the last 20 odd years, someone waking up to it right now should be kicked up the backside, but given we don’t have any kind of accountability at any levels of governance here we are. Standing at a cross roads where not doing anything is about as good as doing wrong.

Urban planning should have guided any decisions the government makes with regards to cities but we are expanding across the planes. Infrastructure should preside any development but the lack of planning is evident in road works and expansion projects galore. Building infrastructure takes forever but when a top official is to visit, the change is evident over-night, makes no sense what so ever. When a person has to travel for more than an hour or two to get to his work place less than 25 to 30 km's something is wrong fundamentally. Getting to change our fundamentals is the need of the hour.

Vehicles plowing on the road is bad no matter the size of the engine as most of them are spending more time burning fuel sitting idle or waiting for the traffic to clear up. The collective pollutants added when thousands of vehicles are idling at signals should be another issues to be looked at. There are so many issues to be tackled which has at least one solution, Public Transport. There are positives and negatives with it so throw the handbook and then some at improving the system to the dot. The introduction of Metro did improve the situation to a certain extent last time but i know more needs to be done and proactively then re-actively.
Hoping for a temporary respite for Delhi and my friends living there.

[EasyR1der]

Originally Posted by Guna

Someone would have already posted these, but this is going to happen and the SC decision will be self defeating

1. SUVs will have smaller capacity but yet higher power output engines
2. Many SUVs will now have bellow 2000 cc engines (normal ones, not the high forced induction type). This will make them to run strained and probably emit more pollutants
3. Potential SUV owners can/will buy 2 or 3 small diesel cars with the same money

Other impact
High demand for the likes of Creta, CRV (Mitsubishi must be Repenting for having discontinued the petrol SUV Outlander)

I think its rather quick to jump the Gun and say Companies will start producing engines below 2000cc with higher power (a new engine has a cycle of almost an year(planning designing and implementing)).
But yes a Ruling like this from SC will make companies change their long term strategy.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by EasyR1der

I think its rather quick to jump the Gun and say Companies will start producing engines below 2000cc with higher power (a new engine has a cycle of almost an year(planning designing and implementing)).
But yes a Ruling like this from SC will make companies change their long term strategy.

Check this article. Anand Mahindra hinted on such move on the very first day.
http://auto.ndtv.com/news/will-the-b...m=home-opinion
"So even if we believe the decision on Diesel vehicles isn't optimal,we'll honour it and develop vehicles that comply with their stipulations"

[avdhesh15]

Originally Posted by Guna

1. SUVs will have smaller capacity but yet higher power output engines
2. Many SUVs will now have bellow 2000 cc engines (normal ones, not the high forced induction type). This will make them to run strained and probably emit more pollutants
3. Potential SUV owners can/will buy 2 or 3 small diesel cars with the same money

I don't think that's entirely possible unless companies have that engine ready-made in India with high degree of localization. Companies might not invest in new technology unless there is visibility on way forward. Also, this might only be a trailer for the movie on 5th January when there is a further judgement on diesel cars!

Mercedes has already shown signs for lack of clarity in future investments in this link from which I quote below:

"This ban on diesel engines also creates an environment of uncertainty and will severely impact our expansion plans and future investments put in place for the Indian market," Mercedes-Benz India said in a statement.

[pratyush6]

So, we are arguing why Diesel and why not the rest? Why above 2.0 lts? I completely agree that we are not even trying to figure out an honest solution, but we do have to begin somewhere.
The joker that is there in power in Delhi does not care too hoots about what happens to Delhi, but he does care about how he is viewed by the Mango people like us. SC ruling is 'almost' absolute though, nothing and no one can stop if from happening.

Yes, the need of the hour is multi pronged strategy (where will the jokers in power get it though when they are so busy with useless Press Conferences) But hopefully SC asks the Delhi Govt to come up with one within that time which should be feasible.

What I would like to see:
1. The road cleaning to be made automated (Machine driven)
2. Trucks and Other Heavy vehicles, should not be allowed in NCR if they do not have to deliver/have business there. No amount of tax will stop it otherwise. And no amount of Money can save your environment
3. Odd and Even Formula to be given a good trial
4. Increase Carpooling initiatives - incentivize them
5. Delhi Metro - Already running at full capacity, it needs to ramp up drastically
6. Location of Tech Parks - Can this be done in fashion which spreads the load rather than concentrate it
7. Complete ban on firecrackers
8. Commercial Vehicles/Public Vehicles playing only in NCR need to compulsorily moved to CNG (Already in place perhaps?)
9. Complete tax exemption on Electric Vehicles
10. Factories in the NCR which create massive amount of Pollution need to be forced to shut and moved out

I need not be an expert and could come up with the above. I am sure if the experts put their brains to it, they can come up with better solutions.


P.S. : Even though I live in Bangalore now, I have lived in Delhi and understand the problems there. The air bad even 6 years back, now I cannot even imagine.
And lastly, I want every city in India to learn from Delhi and plan ahead.

[rdhawan15]

Originally Posted by pratyush6

9. Complete tax exemption on Electric Vehicles

Would you believe it that Mahindra's E2O costs Rs. 6 Lakhs in Delhi !!! I mean, how on earth, does the Government wants us to go green when a Nano-like electric car costs 2.5 times the Nano?

Why doesn't the Central and State Government work on a tangible plan to encourage electric cars across the board? When will they initiate a dialogue or plan? May be 15 years down the line when the US would have moved off Nissan-Leaf into a newer technology.

We need electric cars to be mass-produced and made available throughout India. And, they need to be affordable too.

[blackwasp]

Rather than ban outrightly >2000cc diesel engines, the SC should have shown a little bit intelligence and banned vehicles based on the amount of emissions they produce. That way potential can owners could reduce emissions by adding particulate filters or some other method.

I'm actually a big disappointed in the SC. Atleast they should have though this whole pollution thing through. Rather than direct the govt to implement existing laws correctly, they have passed on to the common man.