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Old 6th March 2019, 09:21   #946
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by guptad42 View Post

This is not an assumption, it is an opinion. Just like you have your opinions.

Yes, my dad used to have a Mahindra jeep and there is a xuv500 in the family.
Yes, Mahindra service leaves a lot to be desired for the kind of customer they are chasing now. Apps and feedback forms let you fix problems after they occur, they don't change the actual service culture overnight.

And this problem of lack of urban car service experience is not unique to Mahindra. Tatas have faced the same problem. It has taken multiple years and several good products like Zest, Tiago, Nexon for the urban car buyer to start buying Tata cars. Long after the products improved, the service experience was still lacking. Even today, it does not match Toyota, Suzuki or Hyundai. Mahindra will need time.

Read what I said. That new products and new parts have such issues. Just that mature makers like Suzuki and Hyundai catch more of the problems during product and vendor development and very few reach the end customers.

And did you notice something in the data you quoted? Check Suzuki's recall/inspect numbers against the volume they sell. You'll figure out how small the percentages are. And how quickly they tamp these down to control limits. It actually proves my point.

And please never quote FCA and Jeep if you want examples of good quality. After years of attempts to improve, they are still much worse that all of their major competition in product quality. See the JDPower numbers.
I still dont get what you are trying to say, how can making assumptions that Mahindra will offer discount be opinion? Opinions are something like "I like this design, I do not like this color" Assumptions are something what you said about discount on XUV 300.

There is a difference between increasing capacity of existing model, and getting a new model like Petrol Brezza. Too many factors are involved, design, testing, development, regulations, etc. Although what you said about extra manufacturing units is correct, that doesn't mean Suzuki will now divert all workforce towards Petrol Brezza. It is also important to note Suzuki sells more Diesel cars of Ertiga and Dzire than their Petrol counterpart. So there is no immediate threat here. I am guessing Suzuki will release new Petrol Brezza only in par with new regulations (This is my assumption and not opinion).

Mahindra still has a lot of ground to cover regarding customer service, yes. They are trying and they are doing a great job at that and they should be appreciated for those efforts.

These days after Nexon got 5 star rating, the focus of Urban buyers has completely shifted to safety features rather than "Kitna deti hein". Mahindra has observed this and incorporated many segment first safety features like 7 air bags, all disc breaks etc. So I am sure Mahindra has knows what "Urban Buyers" want.

Just because Suzuki is selling more numbers and recall % is less doesn't mean that is fine and "Chalta Hein". Every manufacturer should aim for 0% defects, point I made was no one is perfect neither Mahindra nor Suzuki.
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Old 6th March 2019, 09:37   #947
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

That the product is overpriced right out of the oven is beyond question. First tangible indication- large number of cancellations of bookings/ pre bookings that have taken place since the prices were announced. This has been confirmed by the sales executive at the dealership with which I have been communicating.

Secondly, the dealer was trying his best to not lose customers to cancellations based upon price - by providing 5 year extended warranties within the on road price (without additional amounts required to be paid), and providing good exchange prices on used cars offered for exchange etc. In other words, whatever they could stretch to, without coming down to a direct cash discount, and that too without any negotiations at all.

I have no doubt that the car is a very competent one, albeit with its fair share of initial teething niggles. But it is priced out of contention for many of us. Especially for customers like me for whom fancy features like front parking sensors and heated outside mirrors carry no value and mean absolutely nothing. I am also irked by the fact that the really critical features such as additional airbags etc are provided only on the optional pack variant, which is hideously expensive in Bangalore.

I expect there to be good discounts offered before the festive season comes around. There has to be a price correction in some form or manner, in my view, otherwise it will be a case of Mahindra having shot themselves in the foot.

Last edited by arindambasu13 : 6th March 2019 at 09:48.
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Old 6th March 2019, 10:04   #948
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by arindambasu13 View Post
That the product is overpriced right out of the oven is beyond question. First tangible indication- large number of cancellations of bookings/ pre bookings that have taken place since the prices were announced. This has been confirmed by the sales executive at the dealership with which I have been communicating.
I don't think any sane manufacturer would overprice its product when it is introducing a brand new model in the market. Either there are morons sitting in Mahindra's marketing department, or the Tivoli really costs so much to produce. I'd like to believe it is the latter. That, I think, is the same reason even the Alturas is priced high.

But it is not an excuse to sell something for a price the market is not ready to buy at. I still believe that Mahindra should have pitted the full length Tivoli against the Creta and weaned some numbers away from the Hyundai. Mahindra was stupid in spending money in chopping the Tivoli in order to compete in an already crowded segment with no USP to offer.
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Old 6th March 2019, 10:10   #949
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

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Originally Posted by AutoNoob View Post
There's nothing like suspension calibration at factory. Once the spec of shocks, springs and rubber bushes are decided, it all comes to individual parts. Suspension parts are easy to replace (compared to engine or transmission internal parts) and I have replaced many suspension parts myself.
I have received an update that engineers have completed a long drive of the defective (and now fixed) XUV300 I drove & they will be doing the ghats today, before returning the vehicle to the factory. It will then get sent to the dealership for cleaning etc and later, back to me. Because of my extremely tight weekday schedule, I'll be able to take it out on the highway only this weekend or the next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Didn’t anyone notice this before GTO’s feedback?
Good point.

We're getting an XUV300 diesel today. Aditya is going to be taking it out on the highway to comprehensively test it. He will update this thread later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ph03n!x View Post
  • What if I didn't go for my XUV5OO service, didn't see the TSB at the service centre?
  • What if Dr.Naren was on a break, didn't check TBHP?
  • What if it was a long weekend or something, and M&M folks didn't read GTO's post about the handling at speeds until a couple of days later?
The outcome would have been drastically different, right? We may not decide the success or failure of any car, but we are definitely influencers.
Agreed with all your points. Just wanted to add one more - what if my XUV300 had crashed due to the defective suspension ? I would have become yet another unfortunate statistic in the annual accident reports published by Indian authorities.

I credit Mahindra with their extremely quick action, but the thought of high-speed testing a malfunctioning car is really unnerving.

EDIT - Diesel has arrived:
The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs-annotation-20190306-101618.jpg

Last edited by GTO : 6th March 2019 at 10:17.
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Old 6th March 2019, 10:13   #950
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post

But it is not an excuse to sell something for a price the market is not ready to buy at. I still believe that Mahindra should have pitted the full length Tivoli against the Creta and weaned some numbers away from the Hyundai. Mahindra was stupid in spending money in chopping the Tivoli in order to compete in an already crowded segment with no USP to offer.
The full size Tivoli would have been an option, but I suppose the sub 4 meter segment was just too lucrative for Mahindra to give it a pass. I see nothing wrong in that, especially when the product itself is a good one, but getting too ambitious with the asking price was not a smart move at all. The Ecosport itself is viewed as being overpriced, even after achieving an established position in this segment, and now along comes Mahindra merrily asking for more than a lakh's premium over the Ecosport, variant to variant.

Just like most of us, I was hoping against hope that Mahindra prices it well, but alas, that was not to be!

Last edited by arindambasu13 : 6th March 2019 at 10:16.
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Old 6th March 2019, 11:11   #951
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramnaresh_2000 View Post
I still dont get what you are trying to say, how can making assumptions that Mahindra will offer discount be opinion?
I guess we can agree we are debating semantics here - whether the word to use is opinion or assumption. I have explained my thought process that Mahindra's need for large volumes from xuv300 does not fit with the expensive price positioning.

Anecdotes are not hard evidence, but you are already seeing several posts on team bhp about people canceling their pre-bookings because of the price, or deciding not to book once pricing was confirmed. Even more posts saying they believe the car is overpriced.

Neither of us can be sure of the future. I guess we can revisit what actually happens an year down the line! Deal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramnaresh_2000 View Post
There is a difference between increasing capacity of existing model, and getting a new model like Petrol Brezza. Too many factors are involved, design, testing, development, regulations, etc. Although what you said about extra manufacturing units is correct, that doesn't mean Suzuki will now divert all workforce towards Petrol Brezza. It is also important to note Suzuki sells more Diesel cars of Ertiga and Dzire than their Petrol counterpart. So there is no immediate threat here.
I agree that new models have a lot of work involved. But this is again an area where a large portfolio of products, with high volumes, plus access to Suzuki (and third party like Fiat and Magnelli, and now Toyota) technology gives a huge competitive advantage to Maruti Suzuki.

It cuts down development time by matching already developed parts and also reduce chances of failures. I don't know what Suzuki will use for a Petrol Brezza, but they have the 1.5L petrol used in Ertiga and Ciaz, probably with SHVS added for tax concessions, or use Suzuki boosterjet tech. In fact, in the same post I had mentioned that speeding up turbo petrol launches is an area where Suzuki should learn from Tata and now Mahindra. I personally hope they do a smooth 4 cylinder motor (and not a 3pot), but market will buy it as long as it works reasonably well. The point is they have existing developed options they can bring to a petrol Brezza. So, they may not need as much time as Tata and Mahindra who had to develop the petrol engines from scratch.

Secondly, Suzuki have already said in management interviews that BS6 compliance will push up prices on diesel cars. At the same time chances of regulatory limits on diesel cars and smaller fuel price differences are shifting focus back to petrol. And petrol is something Suzuki does very well. Don't expect them to wait till the last day of BS4, now that they removing the capacity constraints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramnaresh_2000 View Post
These days after Nexon got 5 star rating, the focus of Urban buyers has completely shifted to safety features rather than "Kitna deti hein". Mahindra has observed this and incorporated many segment first safety features like 7 air bags, all disc breaks etc. So I am sure Mahindra has knows what "Urban Buyers" want.
Yes and No. Nexon focus on safety is a sales success also because they are combining it with a very competitive price. (combined with other attributes like space and comfort.)

Otherwise, you can see models after models in the Indian market where safety features of the range are mainly on top end models, and customer buy the lower models skipping safety features. If team bhp has variant data for sales, this can be easily shown to be true.

This is the reason govt decided to make the safety features mandatory, because market was not going there yet. (This year, we have been seeing more companies provide safety features across the full range several months before the regulations actually kick in. Only after the govt made the intent clear.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramnaresh_2000 View Post
Just because Suzuki is selling more numbers and recall % is less doesn't mean that is fine and "Chalta Hein". Every manufacturer should aim for 0% defects, point I made was no one is perfect neither Mahindra nor Suzuki.
Neither you, nor I have claimed that any of the carmakers are perfect. Zero defects is an aim, but not always realised. In a non-perfect world, quality performance is measured by who is doing better. It is not "chalta hai" attitude. The much smaller defect ratios on Suzuki show they are more mature in product development and manufacturing than Mahindra and several others. That's all.

I think we have both made our views clear. So, I intend to stop here.
Appreciate the conversation.

Last edited by guptad42 : 6th March 2019 at 11:13. Reason: minor edit for clarity
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Old 6th March 2019, 12:36   #952
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ph03n!x View Post
Instead, if M&M had reached out proactively to TBHP, explained about this issue - even vaguely - and taken steps? Proactively? The TSB was right there at the service centre, for a new car factory-dispatched for end-customer sale hardly days back. Why should they wait till an influential forum talk about it before reacting?

We are not laymen - we understand that even at 6Sigma, there can be more than 3 defects in a million. But what sets you apart will be how you deal with the defect once you learn about it - over here, M&M learnt about it and released a TSB - but didn't talk to TBHP about it before GTO's post... And that is a missed opportunity.
While I agree with your concerns, there're practical aspects for how fast a task can be achieved/ issue can be addressed. Having faced concerns during development phase, spending nights, weekends, shutdowns in office to expedite the resolution, I have learnt one important thing : all that's required to be done can't be squeezed in very small time. If we try to go for that route, most likely we are going to screw something else.

For a seemingly simple issue like re-tuning the shock absorber, minimum following steps are required :
  • the first detection of issue
  • reproduction of the issue for confirmation
  • deciding on countermeasure
  • validating the countermeasure
  • making necessary design releases at OEM
  • design releases at supplier end
  • tooling/ process/ child part changes
  • Production of counter-measured parts
  • Issuing TSB/ recall if vehicle is already dispatched to dealers/ customers
  • Shipping counter-measured parts to all dealers; follow up for receipt
  • Once parts are received, inform customers for the required changes
  • Make necessary part changes on vehicles
You are correct from customers' point of view that why should there be a need of TSB for a car which is shipped just few days back. However, the initial cars (most of them are display and TD vehicles) must have been manufactured atleast a month back before launch (stock build-up) and shipped to dealers by second week of Feb. You saw TSB on 3rd March at dealer end, so I am assuming Mahindra knew about the issue and necessary changes by launch date; there would be very few customer vehicles with old shock absorbers.

Is all this a concern to the customers/ potential customers and shake their confidence in the brand? Definitely yes.

However, for a moment I'd take side of the XUV 3OO suspension engineers at Mahindra and suppliers. As engineers, we all want to bask in the glory of a successful launch and raise the toast. The knowledge that you are bringing a 'curse' to the product is extremely painful, even more mental than physical. Heck, I have lost sleep over issues during development phase; I can't fathom the pain engineers at Mahindra would have gone through. At the end, making complex products like cars is intricate task and we all are humans.

Disclaimer: I don't have any professional relationship with either Mahindra or its suppliers. Also, neither I own a Mahindra product nor I am a fanboy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
before returning the vehicle to the factory. It will then get sent to the dealership for cleaning etc and later, back to me.
Returning the vehicle to factory ? Did they say why, because this is a simple task that can be done at dealer end.
Quote:
Agreed with all your points. Just wanted to add one more - what if my XUV300 had crashed due to the defective suspension... but the thought of high-speed testing a malfunctioning car is really unnerving.
I can understand your situation. In my initial years, I had accompanied test drivers in vehicles with malfunctioning steering, brake circuit fail; and even though all this was in controlled environment, it was quite scary. You faced this situation on a public road, I don't want anyone to be in your situation.
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Old 6th March 2019, 12:44   #953
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

Mahindra's XUV3OO starts its maiden innings of 4484 dispatches in Feb.

Source: Autp Punditz

Last edited by volkman10 : 6th March 2019 at 12:45.
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Old 6th March 2019, 13:10   #954
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
Mahindra's XUV3OO starts its maiden innings of 4484 dispatches in Feb.

Source: Autp Punditz
Even after so many cancelled bookings it has become the 20th best selling car for February 2019. That's impressive! I did not expect this. But there is still chance for this number drop to around 2000 units a month, thanks to the price.
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Old 6th March 2019, 15:46   #955
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
Mahindra's XUV3OO starts its maiden innings of 4484 dispatches in Feb.

Source: Autp Punditz
Some people are not happy with the pricing of XUV 300 and are cancelling their bookings and yet Mahindra achieved this number, which is excellent.

It may not de-throne Brezza on sales (my opinion), but having alternatives is always healthy.

Mahindra is also planning for EV version in 2020 and claimed 2 variants, one with 200 KMs range and another with 400 KMs range. It would be interesting to see the pricing of the EV model, keeping in mind Hyundai Kona and Nissan Leaf are on its way, also Tata's Altroz EV.

I read somewhere that Kona will be assembled in India and will be priced around 18L - 20L, on the other hand Leaf will be imported directly which could be bad for pricing, expected at 35L, in these cases if Mahindra can price XUV 300 EV at somewhere between Tata Altroz EV and Hyundai Kona, it will hit the sweet spot. I would say if XUV 200 EV is priced at 14L for 400 KM range model, then it would hit the sweet spot.
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Old 6th March 2019, 15:55   #956
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramnaresh_2000 View Post
Some people are not happy with the pricing of XUV 300 and are cancelling their bookings and yet Mahindra achieved this number, which is excellent.
First month numbers only signify that Mahindra is very proactive as a company, was ready with the necessary units to be sent to all dealerships as soon as launch happened.

Infact - we even saw deliveries happening on the same day as launch!

Actual sales situation will be revealed only a couple of months down the line.
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Old 6th March 2019, 15:57   #957
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Actual sales situation will be revealed only a couple of months down the line.
Exactly. For the true picture to be revealed vis a vis sales numbers, we will need to wait till the middle of the year, when the sales would settle to the actual numbers. First month numbers reveal very little that way.
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Old 6th March 2019, 18:56   #958
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

XUV 300 - Do The Donut ( Guess the shocks were fine )
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Old 6th March 2019, 21:33   #959
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
I don't think any sane manufacturer would overprice its product when it is introducing a brand new model in the market. Either there are morons sitting in Mahindra's marketing department, or the Tivoli really costs so much to produce. I'd like to believe it is the latter.
To the contrary many car makers have ended up killing their product by pricing them too high. First generation Honda Jazz, 2nd generation Ford Fiesta, first generation S cross to name a few. Mahindra did the same with this car. The problem with a top of the line variant is that you end up marketing those features in every advertisement, every reviewer goes crazy about it, segment first this and segment first that, but in the end you discover that the variant you can afford ( even that one costs 13L on road and is not cheap by any means for a sub 4 meter car) does not offer any of those exhaustive segment first features that wooed you to visit the showroom. Combine that with a manufacturer that does not offer anything special in terms of the brand, after sales service or resale value, and you are likely to give it a skip.
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Old 7th March 2019, 09:41   #960
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Default Re: The Mahindra XUV300, aka Ssangyong Tivoli. Edit: Launched @ 7.9 lakhs

I see this big discussion on overpricing, is it really!? Would you say the same if the vehicle wore a Honda or a Toyota badge? I understand brand value, but the Japanese duo were premium once, not anymore, especially those under the C segment are so stripped down of even the basics (Etios comes with a single wiper). Perhaps we should stop looking at Mahindra as a tractor company, and see the worth of what the XUV 300 offers, instead of what it doesn't.
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