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Old 30th March 2018, 09:12   #31
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Default Re: Toyota & Suzuki to supply cars to each other in India

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Oh please no! That 1.4L makes so much turbo-lag in the higher tune that it would be a poor choice . Maruti is anyway developing its own 1.5L diesel.
1.4 L Euro 6 D-4D ( not yet released in India ) doesn't have that turbo lag.
The old 1.4 L produces peak torque from 1800 - 2800 rpms. The Euro 6 one produces peak torque from 1400 - 2800 rpms. From the way the torque curve behaves, it seems like they have again adopted the large engine small turbo design philosophy used in the latest Crysta Diesel engine which makes the drivability so good.

Having said that, Toyota seems to be moving in the direction of using BMW Diesels for small diesel engines. So, they might not focus on the small Diesel engines in the long run. So, not something that Suzuki can bet on. In addition, the market is already moving towards Petrol. So, there is no point in investing more in small Diesels.

Quoting from http://blog.toyota.co.uk/toyota-auri...e-up-explained

Quote:
Uprated 1.4-litre D-4D
The 1,364cc turbodiesel has been upgraded to comply with Euro 6 regulations, but the changes go significantly further than simply meeting the required emissions performance.

Many improvements have been made, both to improve performance and reduce emissions. A new turbocharger reduces friction in the turbine shaft by 20 per cent and improves efficiency to generate a higher boost pressure at low engine speeds.

The engine has a new solenoid fuel injection system with a larger supply pump and higher common rail injection pressure (180mpa). A NOx storage reduction (NSR) catalyst has been adopted within the exhaust system to meet the Euro 6 requirement for a 55 per cent reduction in Nox.

A new piston design with an open chamber combustion bowl improves fuel economy by 3.4 per cent. The new pistons feature a Diamond-like Carbon coating which reduces friction and thus supports lower fuel consumption.

A new plastic cylinder head cover reduces component weight by 40 per cent and offers improvements to both camshaft lubrication and oil capture performance.

The engine develops 89bhp. The breadth of torque generation has been expanded 400rpm lower down the rev range, with a maximum 205Nm now available from 1,400rpm to 2,800rpm. The Auris 1.4 D-4D hatchback will move from rest to 62mph in 12.5 seconds and reach a maximum speed of 112mph.

Equipped with a manual transmission and stop and start technology, the 1.4 D-4D now returns combined cycle fuel consumption of 83.1mpg and benefits from a substantial reduction in CO2 emissions to 89g/km.

Last edited by amalji : 30th March 2018 at 09:20.
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Old 30th March 2018, 09:54   #32
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Default Re: Toyota & Suzuki to supply cars to each other in India

The articles in ToI and other media are really sensational headline grabbing articles.

As a Toyota owner, the feeling is actually of the brand being diluted. A rebadged Baleno and Brezza is one thing but Corolla being rebadged as a Maruti Suzuki is sacrilege.

I hope things are clarified sooner and in actuality is only related to sharing of tech.

And when I mean sharing of tech, I mean booster jet engines being used in Toyota's and proper hybrid tech from Toyota going to Maruti Suzuki and not SHVS going to Toyota.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
1.4 L Euro 6 D-4D ( not yet released in India ) doesn't have that turbo lag.
The old 1.4 L produces peak torque from 1800 - 2800 rpms. The Euro 6 one produces peak torque from 1400 - 2800 rpms. From the way the torque curve behaves, it seems like they have again adopted the large engine small turbo design philosophy used in the latest Crysta Diesel engine which makes the drivability so good.
Offtopic but those are merely on paper specs. Real world reviews of the UK Auris rate it below average in performance even for the 2017 versions.

No point in quoting a press release from Toyota.

https://www.whatcar.com/toyota/auris...w/on-the-road/

End of the day, the 1.4L is mediocre. Luckily we won't be seeing this engine from Toyota in the future.

The fact that Toyota decided to skip the 1.4L engine in the Yaris altogether even in the higher tune and UK updated spec shows that they themselves knew they wouldn't be able to match the Hyundai and Honda diesel engine.
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Old 30th March 2018, 10:30   #33
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Default Re: Toyota & Suzuki to supply cars to each other in India

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
In the long-term, Toyota benefits as it'll swallow Suzuki
This is exactly what worries me.

As separate entities, Suzuki and Toyota have their own pros, cons and quirks. They have their distinct offerings and corresponding clientele, thereby giving the Indian customer the option to choose.

If either of the two companies end up subsuming the other, the Indian car buyer will be the sufferer. In a technology driven market, the availability of a novelty is more a question of when than if. However, the same cannot be said of core values - principles.

From a purely selfish point of view, I earnestly hope that the partnership remains more mutualistic than parasitic.

OT: What I am afraid of (God forbid) is a situation like this:

Quote:
The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.

Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.

Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th yer peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl.

Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi TU understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.

Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas.


Source: reddit
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Old 30th March 2018, 10:30   #34
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Default Re: Toyota & Suzuki to supply cars to each other in India

There is no harm in calling what is mediocre mediocre. 1.4D4D is mediocre in a Yaris Sedan and a Corolla. What makes it mediocre is the competition. It may have been fine in the Liva and the Etios. OT: Similarly 2.8D4D is an awesome engine. Isuzu is weak here, else it might have been a tie between 1GDFTV and 4JJ1 - for power and durability. Btw any "modern" Diesel engine can be ultra reliable if it is detuned.

Also the inclusion of DPF on any engine will decrease the output to the wheels, compared to similar one with no DPF, it doesn't matter what it says on paper. Or if it does feel sprightly it will soon become less once the DPF clogs. And in Indian driving conditions (stop and go) and the way people typically drive these cars (off idle RPM driving, keeping revs under 2000 - a range EGR being most active) I really would like to see how the DPF's regenerate. DPFs on higher end vehicles doesn't seem to get affected much because of how they are being generally used. Anyway I don't think we are getting DPFs here on mass market vehicles before Govt rolls out Bharat 6.

Last edited by Sankar : 30th March 2018 at 10:51.
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Old 30th March 2018, 10:32   #35
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Default Re: Toyota & Suzuki to supply cars to each other in India

I really don't know what to make of this announcement. Frankly I'd offhandedly say it is brand dilution of both marques. We all know a Suzuki isn't a Toyota and vice versa but this may start a new trend in the efforts to manage costs and penetrate market areas where TKM's (or other car manufacturer's) presence is less than satisfactory.

MSIL's dealership network could provide a huge boost to TKM sales in under represented areas as long as (and this is where I have concerns) MSIL's dealers can maintain the very high standards set by TKM in both pre-sales and after-sales service.

But in the end Suzuki will probably be gradually partially or fully taken over by Toyota globally just the way TMC took over Daihatsu & Hino. Toyota's brand value in developed and not so developed markets is way higher than what Suzuki has been able to achieve. This may prove to be a win-win for both companies in the long term.

PS - Link to a ToI article By 2019, buy tweaked Brezza and Baleno from Toyota, and Corolla from Maruti

And no, most Toyota owners aren't very enthused by this decision.

Last edited by R2D2 : 30th March 2018 at 10:38.
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Old 30th March 2018, 10:34   #36
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Default Re: Toyota & Suzuki to supply cars to each other in India

Osamu Suzuki, the Japanese automaker's octogenarian chairman,

Quote:
We agreed that this approach has merits for both companies
Reactions from Maruti Suzuki's Chairman,

-Fundamentally, the agreement has been forged for exchange of vehicles between the two companies

- The deal will enable Toyota to strengthen its presence in India’s intensely competitive small-car market, where it has limited presence with the Etios series.

-It will also help Maruti Suzuki expand its product range to the executive sedan segment with the Corolla Altis


Quote:
The two will also start joint sourcing for these vehicles, which will allow them to reduce cost. The pact may be expanded to hybrid vehicles as well.
Quote:
they would decide on the details of each model — such as the schedule of supply, number of vehicles to be supplied, specifications and pricing — at a later stage
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Things that could turn out as:

- Exterior and interiors designs could differentiate between Maruti Suzuki and Toyota models.

- Toyota cars will be priced at a premium, justifying the same due to features and brand value.

- Going forward and the 'Make in India' drive the cars would be sold in select emerging markets like SA.


ET

Link1

Last edited by volkman10 : 30th March 2018 at 11:04.
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Old 30th March 2018, 10:43   #37
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Off topic but just thinking out loud. Are we at cusp of Japanese auto industry consolidation? First Nissan taking over Mitsubishi. There is also a talk of Nissan buying out Renault's stake in the alliance. With Honda's diminishing stars and Nissan's rise at a global level, I would not be surprised if there is an alliance between them to counter Toyota. Nissan has the technology, Honda has the market and they can surely give a tough fight to this alliance. Will surely be bigger than Toyota's alliance for starters.
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Old 30th March 2018, 10:48   #38
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Default Re: Toyota & Suzuki to supply cars to each other in India

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
I really don't know what to make of this announcement. Frankly I'd offhandedly say it is brand dilution of both marques. We all know a Suzuki isn't a Toyota and vice versa but this may start a new trend in the efforts to manage costs and penetrate market areas where TKM's (or other car manufacturer's) presence is less than satisfactory.
AStar was sold as Nissan Pixo. Sx4 was sold as Fiat Sedici. I may be missing a few. Both these vehicles had better build than typical Marutis. AStar felt more solid than the Swift, SX4 too was built better.

With Brezza, Toyota gets a vehicle to slot under the CHR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
MSIL's dealership network could provide a huge boost to TKM sales in under represented areas as long as (and this is where I have concerns) MSIL's dealers can maintain the very high standards set by TKM in both pre-sales and after-sales service.
I have doubt whether MSILs can live upto the Toyota's standards in servicing of the vehicles. Most old gen MSIL dealer workshops work below the standard one expects from them as per my experience with 3 Maruti vehicles. This might change when Nexa goes fully independent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
But in the end Suzuki will probably be gradually partially or fully taken over by Toyota globally just the way TMC took over Daihatsu & Hino. Toyota's brand value in developed and not so developed markets is way higher than what Suzuki has been able to achieve. This may prove to be a win-win for both companies in the long term.
This might be good for Suzuki in the world market. But i sincerely hope Maruti to not dilute Toyota quality within India, where the former has an upper hand.
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Old 30th March 2018, 10:56   #39
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Default Re: Toyota & Suzuki to supply cars to each other in India

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Originally Posted by arunramaswamy View Post
Off topic but just thinking out loud. Are we at cusp of Japanese auto industry consolidation?
It was envisaged long ago the consolidation of auto industry will happen and Japan will lead the way.
Toyota has an alliance with Mazda too.

Link
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Old 30th March 2018, 11:11   #40
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Default Re: Toyota & Suzuki to supply cars to each other in India

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
AStar was sold as Nissan Pixo. Sx4 was sold as Fiat Sedici. I may be missing a few. Both these vehicles had better build than typical Marutis. AStar felt more solid than the Swift, SX4 too was built better.
With Brezza, Toyota gets a vehicle to slot under the CHR.
Yes, I have read about cross selling under different marque/model names in the US but quite surprised to see it happening here.

The difference in the examples you quoted which were probably specced to compete in the EU or other advanced markets would be the re-badged models possibly with better specs, better build quality and overall workmanship compared to the models sold in India.

And that is precisely what my concern is, would a Corolla sold by MSIL be a compromised version in some way compared to that sold by TKM? MSIL isn't exactly a shining star when it comes to build quality. My Esteem used to get a ding if I stared hard at it.

What would be the key differentiator between a Corolla sold by TKM and a rebadged one sold by MSIL?

Quote:
I have doubt whether MSILs can live upto the Toyota's standards in servicing of the vehicles. Most old gen MSIL dealer workshops work below the standard one expects from them as per my experience with 3 Maruti vehicles. This might change when Nexa goes fully independent.
Yet another concern but I guess a car owner will automatically approach a workshop specialising in his/her car and operating under the car's marque.

Quote:
This might be good for Suzuki in the world market. But i sincerely hope Maruti to not dilute Toyota quality within India, where the former has an upper hand.
The fact that the Corolla, one of TMC's crown jewels worldwide, has been offered to MSIL tells me there's more to this deal than meets the eye. Possibly a take-over of Suzuki in the mid term by TMC?

Last edited by R2D2 : 30th March 2018 at 11:13.
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Old 30th March 2018, 11:55   #41
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Default Re: Toyota & Suzuki to supply cars to each other in India

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
And that is precisely what my concern is, would a Corolla sold by MSIL be a compromised version in some way compared to that sold by TKM? MSIL isn't exactly a shining star when it comes to build quality. My Esteem used to get a ding if I stared hard at it.

What would be the key differentiator between a Corolla sold by TKM and a rebadged one sold by MSIL?
If it is built by Toyota I think it will be done on the same line and wil have similar quality. Difference could be trim level, features, interior ambience etc. If its going to be built by Maruti it probably will no longer be a Corolla, it would be a diluted version of the same.

Quote:
Yet another concern but I guess a car owner will automatically approach a workshop specialising in his/her car and operating under the car's marque.
That is a given. Toyota will not take in Maruti's Corolla for servicing and Maruti won't take Toyota's Brezza.

There is a silver lining though. We can probably source Corolla's mechanical bits through MGP store

Quote:
The fact that the Corolla, one of TMC's crown jewels worldwide, has been offered to MSIL tells me there's more to this deal than meets the eye. Possibly a take-over of Suzuki in the mid term by TMC?
For Suzuki to survive outside India they need Toyota and over time it will become a subsidiary is what I also feel. But have to see to what extent the dilution affects within India. Suzuki users in Europe or elsewhere need not worry because those vehicles seem to hold up well in NCAP tests compared to a variant made by Maruti.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
With the Corolla, your comments makes sense. I was comparing the possibility of that engine for one segment lower.
Ok i see, so Yaris needs to be compared to Dzire segment. Then its fine the 1.4 D4D is more than enough your comment makes sense. Or did you mean Ciaz segment? Well, since Ciaz can be sold with a 1.3MJD then why not? After all both are together now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
I said, it comes close to the GD Diesel's capability. I love the small turbo big engine design concept for the kind of drivability it gives. It's part of the design which involves many other thing, but that's what really affects the drivability bit of an engine. The Crysta as well as the Euro 6 uses that design. And the power output, torque as well as the rpm range over which the peak torque is available all comes close to that of the crysta Diesel regardless of the number of valves used!
In an engine the valve layout, timing, bore and stroke, piston design is a critical part of its design which determines the how the engine performs. Turbo is important but not so much. According to your logic if the 1KDFTV had the same or similar turbo as 1GDFTV it would have performed the same as GD. Or probably better because of 200cc advantage.

Number of valves and rest of the stuff is more important than turbo!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
Overall, I'll call the Crysta a par vehicle for the course with lots of bells and whistles to hide its weaknesses. If I get a Hexa with a 2.8 GD engine and the backing of Toyota brand, I'll pick that any day over the Crysta.
Similarly if Octavia RS was sold under Toyota I wouldn't think twice of picking it up. But then neither Hexa nor Octavia is Toyota.

Last edited by Sankar : 30th March 2018 at 12:19.
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Old 30th March 2018, 13:25   #42
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Default Re: Toyota & Suzuki to supply cars to each other in India

The mobile handset Giant Nokia didn't adopt Android and they died. Nokia and Blackberry never understood that Android is future.

In this case, Nokia is Maruti Suzuki, Toyota is google & EV is android. A Toyota badged Brezza and MS badged Corrola could be near future but IMO, this collaboration is purely for future and future is EV. Good move!
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Old 30th March 2018, 14:02   #43
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Default Re: Toyota & Suzuki to supply cars to each other in India

My analysis of this is that the deal is between Suzuki and Toyota – not Maruti. I guess this will pertain to the Suzuki factory in Gujarat. Maruti will focus on the smaller cars and retail the Suzuki range.

Lets see who wins and who loses?

Overall as a Business

How will Suzuki win?

Economies of Scale in terms of
  • Lower unit price resulting in improved margins – necessary with new Gujarat plant. Remember Maruti has been hiding behind depreciated plant costs for quite a while
  • Greater volume for proposed diesel engine in a shrinking market

How could Suzuki lose?
  • Cannibalisation of models
  • Dissatisfied Maruti Suzuki/Nexa dealers since Suzuki is feeding competition
  • Will the additional Corolla actually bring in sufficient dealer volume/ margin to justify cannibalisation losses?


How Will Toyota Win?
  • Better volumes and margins
  • More satisfied dealers
  • Incremental utilisation of plant
  • Perhaps no need to invest In Etios replacements

How will Toyota Lose?
  • Dependant on the unit cost of the car supplied
  • Will Suzuki build quality be good enough for Toyota?
  • Higher inventory - Dealers / Toyota will need to stock two families of parts
  • Will the Etios gather dust if it continues in production?


Speculated Model Strategy

The keys to success are to
  1. Define proper sub-segments
  2. Differentiate both sufficiently.

What could happen?

Baleno – Toyota could potentially sell it as a Etios replacement. Create more utilitarian versions and even engineer a notchback version exclusively for Toyota. I suggest this since the Etios does not produce enough volume to justify low unit costs.

Vitara Brezza – I wonder whether this is for the next gen Brezza, assuming it will be made in Gujarat. Toyota could introduce hybrid and petrol versions under its badge. May be a 4 wheel drive but I doubt this.

Corolla – Toyota have only badge engineered the Corolla twice – once as the Geo Prizm and as the Holden/ Chevrolet Nova. I won’t be surprised if Suzuki sell a 5 door hatch version of the Corolla to differentiate from the Toyota equivalent of supply a more utilitarian replacement to replace the Ciaz

Overall

Maruti potential wins in terms of production volume. Toyota in terms of market volume

Last edited by ajmat : 30th March 2018 at 14:06.
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Old 30th March 2018, 14:40   #44
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Default Re: Toyota & Suzuki to supply cars to each other in India

Conversation at Toyota HQ:

CEO: How come the Indian masses are getting away without paying the Toyota Quality Tax (TQT)?
VP1: We can replace Etios with a better car.
CEO: How can a better car from Toyota be cheaper given our high TQT?
[Brief silence...]
VP2: We can buy cars from Suzuki, slap TQT and sell them as Toyota cars.
CEO: Hmm... interesting, but why will customers pay TQT for Suzuki build quality?
[VP1 and VP2 look at each other.. ]
Both VP1 and VP2: Our market research and sales data show that there is no correlation between quality and customer perception of Toyota brand. Multiple iterations of Innova and Corolla have proven it.
CEO: Great, let's sell Suzuki cars.
VP1: But sir, Sukuki is very dominant in the market. Why would they agree to share their lunch?
CEO: Hmmm.. tell them they can sell our Corolla.
VP2: They may not fall for it. Corolla hardly sells and everyone knows Maruti can't sell a D segment car.
CEO: Trust me, everyone falls for a Corolla.

Last edited by androdev : 30th March 2018 at 15:04.
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Old 30th March 2018, 16:03   #45
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Default Re: Toyota & Suzuki to supply cars to each other in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Over the longer term - I'm speaking in decades here - it wouldn't be surprising for Suzuki to become a subsidiary of Toyota. This move is Toyota thinking of its Indian presence in 2030, 2040 or 2050. As things stand today, the 'Big T' has a minuscule market-share in the 4th biggest car market of the world.
This is what I feel as well and it may not be even a decade, the transition of dominance could happen much faster. The dynamics of these two manufacturers are so different that it makes an interesting collaboration. Toyota - a global giant with significant presence all over the world, but struggling to replicate that success in India, especially in the small car segments (sub-10 lakhs). Suzuki on the other hand is hugely successful in India and a struggler outside; and in India they find it next to impossible to sell anything in the 15 lakhs+ segments. This alliance will suit both the players in short term and once settled, expect Toyota to spread the wings and take hold of the market that had eluded them for years.
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