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Old 19th October 2020, 14:30   #91
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos

I have experienced braking issues couple of times with our 5th gen Verna.

First Instance: I have hit brakes few meters before the speed breaker, looks like brakes got applied as expected on the even surface, then on the uneven surface which was there before speed breaker the brake pedal got pushed back, car released from braking and hit the speed breaker without slowing down.

Second Instance: On the flyover I noticed some uneven surface, So I applied brakes few meters before that, the car slowed down as expected, but as soon as it reaches the uneven surface the pedal got pushed back and suddenly car felt as if its released from engine braking for a couple of seconds and brakes got reapplied, pedal to its braking position(my foot was still on brake pedal) after crossing the uneven surface.

The closest service center(Kun United-Anantapur) are unable to diagnoise the issue. we have Elite I20 as well in our family. Going forward No more Kia's/Hyundai's.

Hyundai deserves more bashing than maruthi suzuki, former one for bad braking and latter one for their tincan cars.
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Old 19th October 2020, 14:32   #92
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos

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Originally Posted by srini1785 View Post
From what i understand ( very little , i confess) it looks like the brake lock gets randomly applied. Its like the car is thinking that ignition is off and the brakes are automatically locked. It has , IMO, nothing to do with hydraulics or vacuum.
What is this brake lock that gets applied when ignition is off? Interested to know more. In all the cars I have driven, brake works irrespective of ignition. Just that when engine is off the vacuum in the brake booster gets depleted as we repeatedly press the brake. Even when vacuum is fully depleted, the brakes do work. This applies to cars I have driven from Altos till 1.5 crore barges. Yes I have done engine off brake tests on these cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nithesh_M View Post
Correction. This was 2020 Creta owner. As promised here is his post.
Unfortunately that is one truck load of bull there. If a Kia technician really speaks such theories, then I am afraid he is speaking more like a salesman and not like an engineer. And it is unfortunate that this doesnt apply to Kia alone, but I or many had a similar experience with other manufacturers where some issues get brushed off as "that is how it is", change of driving style etc. If someone speaking on behalf of a manufacturer cannot recognise and acknowledge an issue, then it is obvious that the resolution will be a far trickier game. Slamming the brakes is a human tendency under emergency and we can't avoid that no matter how careful one drives. This is the very necessity of implementing ABS while many justified they could do some sort of threshold braking and still do a good job. If a manufacturers employee under official capacity told me I have to brake gradually for things to work fine, I would sue both of them.

Enough of the rant lets get back to tech. There is no such thing as ABS getting to know by one release of brake pedal that the braking job is done. ABS/ESP has to work the same way even if you press the brake pedal 100 times. There is no selective logic or intelligence as mentioned by the guy who posted this. If the car fails to brake or pedal gets hard during repeated pressing this is mostly due to the lack of sufficient vacuum in the system. If this issue is prominent when driving at low RPMs it further strengthens that theory since vacuum produced in a petrol engine is higher when decelerating from a higher RPM and in a diesel is directly related to the engine RPM due to the vacuum pump which is engine driven. In different cars the vacuum capacity is different. In my SX4 once engine is shut I can press brake easily for two times after which it gets harder whereas in the Crysta I can easily brake around 4 times after which it hardens.

This in addition to ABS prematurely kicking in gives the driver a feel of brake failure and also doesn't give the intended braking effect. Maybe you guys can try driving at higher RPMs especially while decelerating and see if the situation improves. But this would be a design issue and either they have to upgrade the brake booster to have a higher vacuum reservoir and also look at the calibration of the ABS. A few years earlier when the Gen 2 swift was launched the petrol cars had this problem which was solved this manner.

Last edited by audioholic : 19th October 2020 at 14:36.
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Old 19th October 2020, 14:32   #93
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos

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Originally Posted by Stribog View Post
My personal opinion is that there is just way too much fearmongering on the basis of 2 complaints from unknown elements.

Open to having my arguments disproved, I made them only in the spirit of playing the devils advocate
Well stated Sir. This is exactly what I had meant when I said earlier that we should not get to the point of rooting for underdogs and vilifying winners.

I have seen enough videos of users trying all kinds of antics just because they have a new car, a new smartphone and bandwidth. And then you have some with zero knowledge of how some things work, and they come up with clickbait scary headlines, only to reveal that they could have in hindsight, taken precautions.
It seems a lot of the Seltos/Creta buyers particularly in these YT videos are first time buyers. It also says a lot about the economics of the present times.
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Old 19th October 2020, 14:41   #94
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos

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Originally Posted by Stribog View Post
..on the basis of 2 complaints from unknown elements.
2 complaints??

There are 4 different complaints on Hyundai brake systems just in the last two pages itself - 3 of them relating to BHPian's vehicles.

Ignore them at your peril, but do not mislead others by dismissing recurring brake failures as inconsequential.

Last edited by AMG Power : 19th October 2020 at 14:46. Reason: Increased 3 failures to 4 as one more post indicating brake failures has been added.
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Old 19th October 2020, 14:50   #95
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
What is this brake lock that gets applied when ignition is off? Interested to know more. In all the cars I have driven, brake works irrespective of ignition. Just that when engine is off the vacuum in the brake booster gets depleted as we repeatedly press the brake. Even when vacuum is fully depleted, the brakes do work. This applies to cars I have driven from Altos till 1.5 crore barges. Yes I have done engine off brake tests on these cars
I did confess i knew very little right ? especially car mechanicals.

I meant the same what you described. With ignition off the brake lever is hard and has very little braking action. OP and others had mentioned that the brake goes suddenly hard for some seconds and then all is fine.

Last edited by srini1785 : 19th October 2020 at 14:51.
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Old 19th October 2020, 14:53   #96
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos

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Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli View Post
The underpowered petrol 1.2 Punto used to have this problem in the first batch. Especially in b2b low speed traffic with AC on. .
My Ford Ikon 1.3 had the same issue as mentioned by lapis_lazuli. With AC on, in b2b traffic, this used happen quite often. Initially, I used to panic imaging that I would nudge on to someone in the front at a signal while going to stop and then I figured out the work around. If you depress the clutch gently, then break works with no issues under this scenario. Though I mentioned about this at the service center, they couldn't figure out. I figured out that this was with only AC on and that too in slow moving traffic. So I used to watch out and on any hesitation in breaking, I used to gently apply the clutch for 1-2sec while stopping. This used to happen for a short time like 1-2sec and then brakes get engaged. The pedal will be really hard and there wont be any travel and on pressing hard, it will start working.
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Old 19th October 2020, 14:56   #97
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos

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Originally Posted by Stribog View Post
My personal opinion is that there is just way too much fearmongering on the basis of 2 complaints from unknown elements.
....
Open to having my arguments disproved, I made them only in the spirit of playing the devils advocate
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

I am a Seltos D and a Octavia 1.8 TSI owner and never have I experienced the scare that Seltos gave me while I tried to stop at the red light. I drive both the cars with equal enthusiasm and while Octavia's ABS kicks-in once in a while unlike Seltos, it never makes the pedal hard to press.

The KIA ASS told me that obviously 30lac car would have better ABS feedback damping "High-Freq" so its my fault to compare such a expensive car to a cheap car. For the most part I believed him and moved on but with so many cases of the same I think I was bamboozled.
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Old 19th October 2020, 14:57   #98
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos

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Originally Posted by AMG Power View Post
2 complaints??

There are 4 different complaints on Hyundai brake systems just in the last two pages itself - 3 of them relating to BHPian's vehicles.

Ignore them at your peril, but do not mislead others by dismissing recurring brake failures as inconsequential.
Not just Hyundai, I can see bhpians reporting Two different complaints on Maurti Suzuki brake system as well. One in S-cross and other one in Ritz.
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Old 19th October 2020, 15:41   #99
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos

Reading this thread brings back memories of my Hyundai Accent Crdi brakes. I remember how scary it was the first time the brake pedal jammed up, refusing to press down, no matter how hard one pressed.

After going through the same ordeal a few more times, I was able to notice that such an issue happens whenever I was braking intermittently. Suppose I was seeing a traffic jam ahead, so I used to apply brakes lightly first to slow down car to let's say 20 Km/hr, then lift off the brake and apply the brake again when nearing the queue of cars. I noticed that whenever I applied the brake second or third time like that while slowing down, it usually jammed up and the car would not slow down.

Therefore, I changed my driving habit and stopped with intermittent braking. I thought may be my intermittent braking technique in quick succession was messing up the brake hydraulics.

I have not faced similar issue in other cars while applying brakes intermittently in quick succession. I wonder if the issues enumerated by various Hyundai owners in this thread happened under similar braking behaviour?
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Old 19th October 2020, 16:08   #100
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos



Click the url to view the video external facebook window.

Another bizarre incident of gear shifting malfunction being reported by the user here. This facebook page is flooded with high number of issues faced by the owners. Where is the consistency and reliability of the nations 2nd market share holding company Hyundai?

Last edited by jeganatu : 19th October 2020 at 16:18.
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Old 19th October 2020, 16:34   #101
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos

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Originally Posted by Ps_o View Post
This wasn't bad enough, SA starts blasting me, saying I am careless and an idiot for not knowning how to drive. I tried to explain him humbly what i felt with the brakes and how I had managed to come out of this situation. I was soaked with sweat all over hands and forehead.
For them they were clear their products go through test and are better than INDIAN manufacturers, they are not like our regular TATA and Mahindra (where did TATA and mahindra came to conversation I will never know). Made me believe it was indeed ME who did everything wrong.

Dear Ps_o, Please do share the Name of the showroom and the SA details in such a post. I’ve noticed multiple times that TeamBHP is often read by corporate offices of OEMs to see news surrounding their brand. Skoda’s Zac Hollis surely does and this can play an instrumental role in improving services and a good training session for the people involved.
Once, i had a similar experience with Honda a few years back. First time driving an automatic, and brake with my left foot. SA started shouting at me and was the last time i set foot in a Honda showroom.

And dear friend please note this is India, the saying “darr gaye to mar gaye” is very prevalent here. The moment people think you’re afraid, they will start taking advantage. This is especially case with car dealers and service departments. Don’t get scared and if you do try your best not to show it. Imagine if you would have shouted back at him saying “what kind of a car have u given me. You’re putting my life at risk. You can’t even check your TD vehicles properly” and you would’ve seen everyone from the Manager to the Dealer’s GM begging for forgiveness. Don’t get scared and if something happens, never take such words from someone.

I wish you best of luck.

Last edited by Schneller : 19th October 2020 at 16:41.
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Old 19th October 2020, 16:57   #102
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos

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Originally Posted by VRJ View Post
Drive at 60kmph, then you spot an imperfect patch of tarmac, you decide to brake, you depress the brake pedal, but the damn car won’t stop. The brake pedal starts vibrating, it becomes rock solid (it’s like the pedal is just stuck) i.e. wood like feeling, almost gives you a heart attack, then you instantly lift your feet and hit the brake pedal again and then it finally slows down. Finally, you tell this issue to family, friends and the service centre and not one person believes you because it can’t be reproduced. It’s just random.
I don't think its random, as I have faced two such instances in my Seltos Diesel HTE MT.

Whenever one of the front two wheels lose traction on moving off-tarmac and at the same instance you apply brake in comparatively lower speeds - 30 to 60 kph, the ABS gets activated violently making the brake pedal wooden. Later when the wheel passes on smooth tarmac and you apply brake, it works properly.

Has anybody experienced this or the owners who have faced brake failures may shed some light on the actual situation at the time of failure.

I guess its related to the unequal signals that the ABS computer gets from various wheels and its not ready for the proper response.

Last edited by H Karter : 19th October 2020 at 17:01.
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Old 19th October 2020, 17:09   #103
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos

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Originally Posted by naveen.raju View Post
I think this batch of Seltos used the same ABS vendor as the first gen Creta. (The 2020 Creta now use a new vendor).
Hello Naveen, Both the cars in question are Feb'20 make, both NA petrol - one a 6 MT and other an IVT. Details as below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bibendum90949 View Post
Coming back to the topic, i've the VIN of both these cars. Few common things.

1. Both are manufactured in Feb'20, 6th and 12 th.
2. Both have all four discs.
3. All these issues which had taken place are at slow to very slow speeds.(30-40-50 kmph range).

Point 1 could just be a coincidence, may be not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PYSO View Post
Does anyone know who the previous ABS vendor was? And who the new ABS vendor is? Is there some way to confirm that the vendor has actually changed, perhaps from the parts catalogue or by physically examining the parts.
In fact bhpian a4anurag reached out today morning on this and this is what I could find in the ABS unit of my Seltos, attaching the image below. Old gen Creta ABS was supplied by Georgia based Mando America Corporation as shared by Anurag. I guess he has some findings to add on here.

Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos-img20201019wa0020.jpeg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stribog View Post
My personal opinion is that there is just way too much fearmongering on the basis of 2 complaints from unknown elements.
Hello Stribog, These aren't any unknown elements. Both owners are known to me and each word mentioning the issue was written after speaking to them extensively. Both are pretty experienced drivers and using cars for ten years or so. Moreover, the brake hardening issue cropped up when Kia service team were test driving the car upon receiving the complaint. The owner was also in the car then. Kia acknowledged the issue and that's when they did all kinds of testing and trouble shooting and later changed the brake booster. All details are mentioned in the first post of this thread. The VIN numbers of cars are with me. One can always check the job card entries and service records of these cars and the question of these accounts coming from unknown sources are unfounded, if I may say so. I suppose, I need to be on top of the facts when I air a concern through an esteemed forum like team BHP. Hope i've not faltered on that count.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stribog View Post
I say unknown in the sense that we have our own BHP Seltos thread (both the official review one and the concept car one) where 100's of BHP'ian owners have contributed their reports / feedback on all aspects of the car and nothing on this issue.

Personally if someone like a Bibendum or any other BHP'ian owner faced and reported it, I would truly be alarmed, but as of now, this could even be other circumstances the people reporting these cases are omitting or missed to share. To clarify, I say I will take a BHP'ian owner more seriously is because in general we are a far more informed lot about all things cars (to varying degrees) and as enthusiasts who take the time to register and contribute to the forum, that to me reduces the chances of bad driving and thus increasing the seriousness of the complaint.
I was surprised too as no one has reported such experiences on Seltos thread. Also let's not say if a team BHP member has not reported or experienced it, the issue doesn't exist at all. It could well have taken place outside of our forum and it's just that we're not privy to it. I've seen FB posts on this as well. I'm pretty sure there are similar cases reported outside of this forum and Kia must be already aware of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stribog View Post
One thing about the first case though intrigues me,

Using cruise in the city at 50 kmph driving on 6th gear and coming up at a red signal?

2) 6th gear at 50 kmph will mean super low RPM's and I personally can sense the vehicle is near stalling, the gear shift indicator will also be asking you to down shift, so why even do this.
3) The post claims that the driver had 3-4 seconds at 50 kmph to slow down for the signal (by eventually using the handbrake), this translates to almost 230-300 mtrs traveled and still make the signal, but without hitting anyone in a city road?
He was doing 60 kmph on cruise in 6 th gear as mentioned in my post. Being a NA petrol, guess that's very much possible. Come on, let's not add the ifs and buts here. This is from the horse's mouth. Let's not say how there wasn't anyone on the road and he could he get a free way etc . The crux of the matter is the brakes failed, with traffic around or otherwise. Brakes should perform the function of stopping the car, no matter what the driving conditions or driving habits are. Also note, all these issues were faced on smooth roads when they were trying to brake normally.

Last edited by Bibendum90949 : 19th October 2020 at 17:35.
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Old 19th October 2020, 17:15   #104
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos

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Originally Posted by H Karter View Post
Whenever one of the front two wheels lose traction on moving off-tarmac and at the same instance you apply brake in comparatively lower speeds - 30 to 60 kph, the ABS gets activated violently making the brake pedal wooden. Later when the wheel passes on smooth tarmac and you apply brake, it works properly.

Has anybody experienced this or the owners who have faced brake failures may shed some light on the actual situation at the time of failure.
I have experienced same situation . Here is the link to my post. https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post4911819 (Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos)
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Old 19th October 2020, 17:33   #105
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Default Re: Brake failure issues in the Kia Seltos

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Originally Posted by Nikhs View Post
I have experienced braking issues couple of times with our 5th gen Verna.

First Instance: I have hit brakes few meters before the speed breaker, looks like brakes got applied as expected on the even surface, then on the uneven surface which was there before speed breaker the brake pedal got pushed back, car released from braking and hit the speed breaker without slowing down.

Second Instance: On the flyover I noticed some uneven surface, So I applied brakes few meters before that, the car slowed down as expected, but as soon as it reaches the uneven surface the pedal got pushed back and suddenly car felt as if its released from engine braking for a couple of seconds and brakes got reapplied, pedal to its braking position(my foot was still on brake pedal) after crossing the uneven surface.

The closest service center(Kun United-Anantapur) are unable to diagnoise the issue. we have Elite I20 as well in our family. Going forward No more Kia's/Hyundai's.

Hyundai deserves more bashing than maruthi suzuki, former one for bad braking and latter one for their tincan cars.
This is how the ABS works, in uneven surfaces, the wheels speeds differs (meaning some of the wheels loose traction), this in turn asks the ABS to reduce brake pressure so as to avoid wheel locking.

Fact
  • ABS increases stopping distance in surfaces such as sand, uneven surfaces, ice.

Having said that the fineesse at which ABS can be tuned is a world in itself. KTM has off road ABS which is tuned to perform better in offroad conditions.
If the ABS is poorly tuned, then it might reduce the brake pressure too much leading to unnessarily poor braking. Tyres with low traction, high tyre pressure, weak suspension, slippery road conditions also contribute to greater stopping distances.

Also, if the vehicle has average mechanicals (lets say low spec drum brakes or poor quality discs) this will also contribute to larger stopping distance. I also suspect Kia Seltos have really poor tyres, even changing the tyres might improve the performance (assuming this is ABS tuning issue).

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