[nakul0888]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Also disappointing is the metal build quality which feels tinny and cheap and I cannot forgive the doors which have the window frame welded on the base instead of being stamped out of a single panel of steel! To know what I am on about have a look at this video

Too bad, all that "superior build quality" does not translate into a good ownership experience.
You could offer me money to own a passat in India and I would still decline it.
Along with the ownership reports posted here in team bhp I know half a dozen people who own a passat, and all of them are fed up with the car/company/dealers.
Not much of a surprise then that the passat got axed and the camry hybrid even at 40l OTR still sells.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by nakul0888

Too bad, all that "superior build quality" does not translate into a good ownership experience.
You could offer me money to own a passat in India and I would still decline it.
Along with the ownership reports posted here in team bhp I know half a dozen people who own a passat, and all of them are fed up with the car/company/dealers.
Not much of a surprise then that the passat got axed and the camry hybrid even at 40l OTR still sells.

Video was to make that point and not to compare Toyota's reliability with VW. In my case, the build quality comparison was with Mazda 3 which is in the same segment and is infact is a little cheaper to buy.

There is no doubt in my mind that it is going to be supremely reliable just like every other Honda is but that does not change the fact that the build is still disappointing.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Video was to make that point and not to compare Toyota's reliability with VW. In my case, the build quality comparison was with Mazda 3 which is in the same segment and is infact is a little cheaper to buy.

There is no doubt in my mind that it is going to be supremely reliable just like every other Honda is but that does not change the fact that the build is still disappointing.

Here's a review from the Australian market that echoes your thoughts mostly. The Civic is the more sensible buy, but the Mazda 3 is more fun. Even more impressive for the Mazda is the fact that it's way older than the Civic, and cheaper as well.

https://youtu.be/qn1jkjHLvuk

That said, I love the new Civic in the way it seems to be a good combination of all factors put together into one package.

[Turbanator]

Test drove one yesterday in a Coupe shape with 1,5 Ltr for my son here in Canada. This new engine or car is not what Honda civic used to be a generation before, The engine is good only if you want to cruise , the fun of civic is all but gone , just press accelerator and then keep on looking at the speedo and this thing will move at leisure.

one caveat - we test drove the honda after driving new A4 and 428

[nakul0888]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Video was to make that point and not to compare Toyota's reliability with VW. In my case, the build quality comparison was with Mazda 3 which is in the same segment and is infact is a little cheaper to buy.

There is no doubt in my mind that it is going to be supremely reliable just like every other Honda is but that does not change the fact that the build is still disappointing.

Yes, but is there anything meaningful in that supposedly better build quality?
Is the passat actually safer than the camry? The answer is no. Both have neck and neck crash test ratings. In the U.S camry actually comes with more safety features than the passat and hence in some tests edges ahead of passat.

And even with their butch build quality there are tons of complaints about rattles, squeaks coming out of VAG cars like the laura, octavia..etc

So at the end of the day, does this build quality actually mean anything or is it just needless show off?

One could say its all about craftsmanship and all that but when it comes to it the japanese cars (made for india super duper cheap specials aside) is just as safe, economical, powerful, spacious, comfortable, feature rich but at the end of the day significantly more reliable than the german counterparts.

So should we really give much importance to this whole "the window frame welded on the base instead of being stamped out of a single panel of steel" thing?
In all of probability the civic being the recently launched car might be the most safest one in its class. Maybe even more safer than that passat too. Should we just write it off just like that because of inconsequential details?

I guess at the end of the day its always good to have choices so that one can choose between sturdy craftsmanship and painful A.S.S and plain jain engineering and peaceful ownership

Don't know much about mazda since it's not here in India, if mazda's cars combine the good traits of these two spectrum then its absence is sorely missed here in India.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by nakul0888

Yes, but is there anything meaningful in that supposedly better build quality?
Is the passat actually safer than the camry? The answer is no. Both have neck and neck crash test ratings. In the U.S camry actually comes with more safety features than the passat and hence in some tests edges ahead of passat.

And even with their butch build quality there are tons of complaints about rattles, squeaks coming out of VAG cars like the laura, octavia..etc

So at the end of the day, does this build quality actually mean anything or is it just needless show off?

In quantitative terms its not but if you were to ask which car I would like to be in if I am going to have a crash, it has got to be the Passat. They also very different when it comes to their high speed behavior and build plays a factor here and I do not need to say which one drives better.

Originally Posted by nakul0888

One could say its all about craftsmanship and all that but when it comes to it the japanese cars (made for india super duper cheap specials aside) is just as safe, economical, powerful, spacious, comfortable, feature rich but at the end of the day significantly more reliable than the german counterparts.

Ofcourse they are reliable and no one is disputing the fact but my comparison was with my present of wheels, which happens to be Japanese, is as reliable and safe, is as economical, is cheaper and yet built better.

Originally Posted by nakul0888

So should we really give much importance to this whole "the window frame welded on the base instead of being stamped out of a single panel of steel" thing?
In all of probability the civic being the recently launched car might be the most safest one in its class. Maybe even more safer than that passat too. Should we just write it off just like that because of inconsequential details?

Write it off? Who wrote it off? I am saying the build isnt good. How is that writing it off? Why so defensive mate? Basic science says that welding makes the metal weaker which is why you have technology like hydroforming.

Originally Posted by nakul0888

I guess at the end of the day its always good to have choices so that one can choose between sturdy craftsmanship and painful A.S.S and plain jain engineering and peaceful ownership

The context is lost on you. My take on the car is not as it stands in the Indian market. And You can stop that now.

Originally Posted by nakul0888

Don't know much about mazda since it's not here in India, if mazda's cars combine the good traits of these two spectrum then its absence is sorely missed here in India.

Yes they do and I am myself surprised how a relatively small car company with seemingly few resources is able to make cars this good and they do not miss out on anything either.
Look at their line up - The MX-5 voted the car of the year and design of the year both, Mazda 6 rated the best in its class, Mazda 3 again the best in its class and the all new CX-9 which is going to rewrite the rules of the crossover game. I havent even mentioned the CX-3 and the CX-5. They do not have one bad looking car in their whole lineup and how many manufacturers can you say that about?

[Aaron:)]

This German vs Jap debate has been done to death, and there's no point doing it over and over again. Different people have different views on build quality. While some equate build quality to stuff like how the door closes, some prefer reliability and ease of ownership even if it comes at the cost of a relatively lighter build.

I for one, would gladly take a Honda/Toyota/Hyundai and live with a rattle here and there than spend time and energy over a VW/Skoda which spends more time at the service center than at my house.

But there's no taking away from the fact that most Germans are built like a tank, even though they seem to be getting lighter by the day ( eg - the new Octavia ). The driving experience too is on a whole different level, though the Japs are fast catching up. At the end of the day, it's down to individual preferences.

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Write it off? Who wrote it off? I am saying the build isnt good. How is that writing it off? Why so defensive mate? Basic science says that welding makes the metal weaker which is why you have technology like hydroforming.

This is true, and its also a fact that Honda cars are not as well-built as before. The difference is quite obvious when you enter the cabin of the current-generation Jazz or City. This is no way is an attempt to say Honda is a bad car company because it most certainly isn't, however they have been getting away with some pretty cheeky shortcuts in India in the feel-good department (incomplete wheel-well cladding, fuel hub that isn't painted, door shut etc). I also saw an American review the Honda Fit (Jazz) and he called it out for its Soviet-era welding process where the welds are all too visible. This is certainly not expected of the company. This is just a comparison of Honda what it used to be in India and what it is today with the latest models and I feel that they've certainly gotten loose in terms of quality.

Originally Posted by Aaron:)

This German vs Jap debate has been done to death, and there's no point doing it over and over again. Different people have different views on build quality. While some equate build quality to stuff like how the door closes, some prefer reliability and ease of ownership even if it comes at the cost of a relatively lighter build.

I agree with the initial part, one cannot ever settle a debate on which car manufacturer is better. However it is also true that nowadays all car companies are focussing on the minute details, the noise isolation, the way the car shuts and feels, plastic quality etc. Hyundai does this as well, as their engineers are largely German. Honda in my view earlier had better feel-good quality than its current self, one look at the previous generation Accord interiors would prove that.. I feel that Toyota and Honda are watering down off-late and its not only my view but its a view of a couple of people I know who were loyal to the brand but not anymore.

The "door-shut" thing is something like an addiction I'd say, I've a Hyundai Getz which is a car completely conceptualised & built in Germany.. it also weighs about 1075 kilograms which puts it directly into the league of Fiat Punto. Now I don't get to travel in too many cars other than my own so whenever I sit in a taxi like Etios or Indica, I simply grimace when I shut the door.. it shuts with a loose-clang and in the Getz all I've to do is pull the door towards the cabin and it shuts with a comfortable "thud" on its own. I've not felt such solidity in even other Hyundai cars except for the Elantra. This is not to say that Etios isn't well built, it scored 4 stars in a crash test but somehow I feel I'm addicted to that heaviness.. it just makes the sitting experience sweeter. So I certainly understand where owners of such similarly heavy cars are coming from.

I for one, would gladly take a Honda/Toyota/Hyundai and live with a rattle here and there than spend time and energy over a VW/Skoda which spends more time at the service center than at my house.

Fully agree, while all that we're doing is going by overall buyer experiences, it is still not necessary that a Honda/Toyota/Hyundai would develop rattles or that a European car would give troubles. I've an office colleague who has had no problems yet on a 3 year old Polo which is quite nice and my Hyundai doesn't have a single rattle after 8 long years of bad roads. However like you, I'd still continue with my brand because I'd want to continue with that same luck if possible than wade into the unknown.

But there's no taking away from the fact that most Germans are built like a tank, even though they seem to be getting lighter by the day ( eg - the new Octavia ). The driving experience too is on a whole different level, though the Japs are fast catching up. At the end of the day, it's down to individual preferences.

That tank like factor is actually perspective.. in India I feel Fiat qualifies to be closest to a rigid, safe and 'seemingly' indestructible build. Having sat in and driven an E90 BMW 3 Series, I can say the car is superbly made and it is most certainly above the league of Fiat any day, yet you wont feel that in the door-shut.. it shuts like a normal European car with a muted rubberised thud. After the BMW experience I'd not put Skoda or VW anywhere close in terms of driving so even within the Europeans there are massive differences in terms of feel or handling.. there is certainly no consistency there.

Yes at the end of the day its purely individual preferences and I too will leave it at that. This is Team-BHP so we have to respect every brand for what it is and welcome the owners unique perspective on their cars.

[coolkurt]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

This is true, and its also a fact that Honda cars are not as well-built as before. The difference is quite obvious when you enter the cabin of the current-generation Jazz or City. This is no way is an attempt to say Honda is a bad car company because it most certainly isn't, however they have been getting away with some pretty cheeky shortcuts in India in the feel-good department (incomplete wheel-well cladding, fuel hub that isn't painted, door shut etc). This is just a comparison of Honda what it used to be in India and what it is today with the latest models and I feel that they've certainly gotten loose in terms of quality.

I agree. There is a marked difference in the earlier gens of Honda City and the current model. My FNG guy keeps telling me to never sell my Civic as the quality of parts and build quality is leagues ahead of the ones manufactured in India. The 8th gen Civic was assembled from Completely Knocked-Down (CKD) kits.

[volkman10]

2017 Honda Civic , reassessed in Euro NCAP tests,

Euro NCAP has re-tested the Honda Civic published earlier this year, after the company introduced improvements to the rear seat restraint on the in-production vehicle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2GZXQYqbfo

[Venkatesh]

Honda Japan has decided to pull the plug on the Civic sedan amid poor demand, it sold just 1,619 examples in the last FY.



Not only is Honda retiring the four-door Civic from the Japanese market, but it’s also ending local production of the compact sedan. The five-door hatchback and the Type R will soldier on as imports from the United Kingdom, but only until the end of the current model’s life cycle.



https://www.motor1.com/news/430207/h...an-axed-japan/

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Venkatesh

Honda Japan has decided to pull the plug on the Civic sedan amid poor demand, it sold just 1,619 examples in the last FY.

That is shocking news. I can hardly believe it! But numbers are numbers, and I have to admit having been fairly auto-monogamous with eyes only for VW over the past decade.

Neglect an old friend, and the next thing is hearing that they are dying!