[vasudeva]

Dear Mr. Sirkar

Americans do drive for around 3-4 yrs and then sell it. But look at the internet and some user experiences, and you may find that they drive on an average 25-30000 miles or in 4 yrs more than 100000 miles. Toyota/Honda are known to give less problems than other cars. My sister in the US knows of many people who have Toyota Corollas running with very minor costs for odos exceeding 150,000-200000 miles. The 10-yr reliability record is for 1998-2007 models and all Toyota Corollas from 1998-2007 have excellent used car verdicts. Hope this will clear any doubts about longevity or long-term reliability.

[appuchan]

Well, in the US Corollas are quite reliable. Same is the case with Camry and many Honda models. I am not sure if the same can be said about them in India considering that they are "built to a price" here.

[vasudeva]

I am not sure if the same can be said about them in India considering that they are "built to a price" here.

That seems like an Autocar India quote to me. The best way to find out is to do your own research and drive yourself.

[vasudeva]

Really, do you not think that all cars everywhere are `built to a price (segment)'. Exceptions may be ultra luxury cars such as Maybachs, ferrari, alfa romeo, etc. The quality of material used in a 2 lakh car is different from a 20 lakh car. Swift LXI is priced at 4 lakhs, and that price dictates what goes into 20000 parts in a car, and what we see with our eyes and what we operate. Can you expect all airbags, all disc brakes, park assit, automatics, cruise control, GPS, DVDs, beefed up suspensions, ABS, sunroof, high output engine and all otehr gizmos in a 4 L car. If you want a mini with some of these features, there is always a Mini Cooper. But that is priced at around US$29000-30000 in the US.

I am not interested in selling a Corolla to anyone. But from what I have gathered from our company's years of research in industries, quality of whatever is put in the car for that price and its long-term reliability distinguishes Toyota/Lexus from others. All Toyota and many Hondas are rated as excellent used car bets. In fact, if you read some recent reports, you may find how the new Boeing 787 borrows somethings from the Toyota Production System (TPS). TPS, developed in Japan in the 1940s, is the framework and philosophy organizing the manufacturing facilities at Toyota and the interaction of these facilities with their suppliers and customers. The philosophy was largely developed and popularised by Toyota engineer Taiichi Ohno. The main goal of TPS now generally popular worlwide as lean processes is to eliminate all forms of waste within manufacturing operations, but has become a very popular tool for improving efficiencies in all types of organizations.Lean process also means Continuous improvement in improving quality, reducing costs, increase productivity and share information.

[appuchan]

I think somebody already talked about the body shell being thin and car having slight rattling in doors. This is definitely not the case for the Corollas in US for sure. They are quite sturdy. Maybe this will qualify for "build to a price" ?

Anyway, I managed a test drive on my friends manual corolla yesterday. I think its 80% as good as the ones in US. The feebleness of the body can be fel while driving on bad roads and when you shut the doors and boot. I have no plans to buy a new car anyway since I bought a Verna only recently. Just was keen to know about the toyota/honda models in India, since I was driving them abroad.

[RJK]

there is always a Mini Cooper. But that is priced at around US$29000-30000 in the US.

Vasudeva,

Not really, Mini is more like $20-22k including taxes and everything. Ofcourse, not w/o the John Cooper tuning kit.

[vasudeva]

[quote=appuchan;429624]I think somebody already talked about the body shell being thin and car having slight rattling in doors. This is definitely not the case for the Corollas in US for sure. They are quite sturdy. Maybe this will qualify for "build to a price" ?

Dear Mr. Appuchan

The Indian Corolla has the same dimensions and weight as the US Corolla. Weight in India is 1160/1180 kg (MT/AT), and 2550/2615 lbs, which translates to the same. There is no rattling on doors at least in my new car. regarding weight, it does not matter if the car weighs less or like a tank. What matters is whether more weight translates into more safety. Yes, the boot is thin, but 2front airbags are standard in my H4 and US 3 models. Of course in the US, there is the option of side curtain airbags. But the critical thing is that the standard car specced with front airbags has received the max. 5 star safety rating from NHTSA for frontal risk of chest and head injury. Even the tighter IIHS standards give Corolla the highest `good rating'. The same applies to both US and similarly specced Indian models (with front 2 airbags). Of course, without the option of side airbags, Corolla gets 4 star out of 5 for side risk of chest injury from NHTSA.

You should also know that weight of doors, sheet metal has got something but not everything to do with safety, as the above proves. Also these days, almost manufacturers invest huge amounts in R&D to try to reduce the overall weight of the vehicle without compromising safety.

Now perhaps the myth of Corolla in `the USA' being better built or more safe or more heavy or less rattling than the `developing country markets' can be laid to rest. Yes it is more expensive but for that, some blame is on the Government which results in taxes being around 40-50% of price. That holds for all cars built in India. For CBUs, the taxes are even higher at more than 100%.

[appuchan]

Just took a test drive on a Honda Civic MT. Getting an AT for test drive was difficult. I too found the seating not to my comfort levels. I am not a tall guy, but my friend who is 6'1" was very happy with it. Otherwise, w.r.to looks, equipment levels and quality, ride and handling were similar to corolla. Interiors ar definitely more chic and exteriors more contemporary. No wonder it sells more than double that of corolla in India. Engine felt a bit sluggish, maybe its heavier than corolla. If toyota comes out with the new "little camry" design there is no reason for confusion in choice.

I think the Civic is aimed at the age group 25-35 and Corolla at 30-40. So guys like me who fall in the overlapping age finds it difficult to choose.

[csentil]

Originally Posted by appuchan

Just took a test drive on a Honda Civic MT. Getting an AT for test drive was difficult. I too found the seating not to my comfort levels. I am not a tall guy, but my friend who is 6'1" was very happy with it. Otherwise, w.r.to looks, equipment levels and quality, ride and handling were similar to corolla. Interiors ar definitely more chic and exteriors more contemporary. No wonder it sells more than double that of corolla in India. Engine felt a bit sluggish, maybe its heavier than corolla. If toyota comes out with the new "little camry" design there is no reason for confusion in choice.

I think the Civic is aimed at the age group 25-35 and Corolla at 30-40. So guys like me who fall in the overlapping age finds it difficult to choose.

Its not the seating, but generally the car by itself has a very low stance. Probably explains the reasons for its excellent grip and cornering. A lot of people have found that they cannot judge the left side corner from the driver's seat.. Being tall definitely helps and if you raise the seat level then you get really good seating comfort. But lumbar support is missing, which means that once you change the seat height to its highest level you might lose lower back support.

Ingress and egress is a problem due to the low stance.

[vasudeva]

Originally Posted by csentil

Its not the seating, but generally the car by itself has a very low stance. Probably explains the reasons for its excellent grip and cornering. A lot of people have found that they cannot judge the left side corner from the driver's seat.. Being tall definitely helps and if you raise the seat level then you get really good seating comfort. But lumbar support is missing, which means that once you change the seat height to its highest level you might lose lower back support.

Ingress and egress is a problem due to the low stance.

Dear Mr. Csentil and Mr. Appuchan
Yes it is definitely true that Civic (and Honda products in general) is generally bought by more what I can say younger, sporty people, while Toyota Corolla is generally bought by older people (I am 40!). This product positioning and buyers profile holds true for almost all products sold across the world.

In my opinion, there is nothing that an owner will regret about buying either one. It is a matter of personal preference and what gels with driving style, image, preferences, etc. Both give almost the same FE, have almost the same practical acceleration (or not significant differences). Since I have bought a Corolla, but was keen on the Civic, I would like to share my opinin about what may be USP of 2 products (no engine/FE/technical comparison here):

Civic: newer look, looks goods from certain angles, sportier driving, ride (can be subjective but for all cars, ride is generally better for front seating), can be awkward seating for short drivers like me (you know that was the major reason why I chose Corolla), The seating may be good for some, but it was not good for my personal driving style, seating preferences. I found it hard to see at the front. This may have changed as I drove more, and was not an issue on clear roads, but in weaving or heavy traffic, I found the distance from seat to even the front mirror to be too great for my personal preference. That's it.

Corolla: no need to say anything since that is there in my long-term report, but from what I now know: older but not outdated looks, my own personal preference for its looks (I am a believer in the Supreme Lord Krishna, but not a believer in sun signs, but I am a Capricorn), its seating position that suited me better. In fact, all other things being equal, it was this that made me choose the Corolla. With my short height and driving position, the seating position makes Corolla fun to drive for me. The Civic is also equally fun to drive, but not for this individual.

[HSV]

Dear Vasudeva,

Its great to read your detailed posts which are very well written thereby making it a pleasurable reading indeed. On the same note, I request you to write a rather detailed review of how your corolla automatic is doing these days.

I am sure you must have put quite a few kilometers on it, and hence am quite keen to read how the car is holding up. Looking forward to an update from your end soon.

regards,

[vasudeva]

Dear HSV

Thanks a lot for your appreciation, which is undeserving. I have now completed close to 10K on Corolla (9.9 K), and the only thing that has changed that is my leather seat covers now show some specks of black, which I cleaned yesterday with a hair shampoo (that is right). Other than that, so far it is smooth sailing with no appreciable drop/increase in FE. With close to 10K kms, I can say that FE of Corolla is the following (with reasonable degree of certainty):

Less traffic (say at 40-50 kmph for distance covered): 11-12 (with AC set at 25-26C).
Normal traffic (say at 25-30 kmph): 10-11
Heavy (15-25 kmph): 9-10

Negatives have more to do with the inadequate service centres even in a place like Delhi (I stay in East Delhi, and no service centre is less than 15 kms), lack of pick and drop.

Positives still include precise handling (I do not know why some people consider Corolla to be a poor handler, because I find it very zippy and maneouvarable), decent FE, good visibility (with a cushion since I am only 5'4'), and high preciseness of steering (ie there is no uncertainty of car steering more or less than I hoped for), and all the other things noted in my initial report. I am so far happy (I anyway am a quite contented person) with my car. But 10K is hardly a decent mileage for problems to crop up. But minor problems did crop up in my old Corsa before that point (to be fair, they also surfaced in my earlier Zen and 800, so no panning of GM). Let me hope that Toyota's reputation is deserved. Of course Civic sells more deservedly, Corolla's new edition is expected to be out in late-2008, and my resale value will go down, but these things hardly matter to me. Unless Lord Krishna has other plans, I plan to stick with the Corolla for at least 125-150K kms.

[HSV]

Thanks for the prompt update. I currently drive an Indigo LX as that was my VFM purchase the moment I moved back from Australia 3 years ago. At that time I wanted something cheap to run and easy to maintain and the quality of drive was not on the top of my agenda, hence the decision - and I must say I cant thank myself enough for taking that decision and not giving into tempation and buying something in a higher segment.

Well 3 years on and I am itching to change my car now. I am considering an automatic (you can tell by following my previous posts in various threads ). Frankly I wanted to buy the new Scorpio 2.2 but I guess I am tired of waiting.

I still havent made up my mind whether I'll go in for a car for myself this year or wait for the next year and instead buy my wife a set of new wheels this year - who is still learning to drive in Delhi (on my 9 yr old maruti 800 which she has successfully bumped in quite a few places). So I am not even sure whether buying her a new car just yet is such a good idea after all (I wanted to buy her a small/compact automatic - the only option currently being the Santro - but with the PA coming in - Guess I'll wait and watch). Oh the confusion!

Anyways, after having diligently followed your posts on the corolla in not only your long term review but in the thread under automatic transmission, I must say that I am very very tempted to seriously consider the corolla automatic as my next change - which may explain the reason for the sudden gush of interest in your posts . So finally if I do end up buying this car after all, whether this year or the next - then the entire credit for me becoming a customer would definitely go to you for motivating me thus!

Although your posts pretty much point towards the fact that you are enjoying your car and find it suiting the best to your requirements. However what are your opinions on this car with respect to the cost of maintenance, the cost of replacement of parts, as well as the cost of fixing dents etc (considering Delhi driving).

I enquired from Galaxy and Uttam and there is a cash discount currently available of Rs 65000/- plus a 10% discount on insurance which would be approx Rs 3000/- and there is a 3 years free maintenance package available (labour & consumables - which IMO is great). However I am trying to squeeze them for more discount - since there is a new model in the offing.

Sorry for the long post but I'm totally confused and havent quite made up my mind which direction to go - I guess I am just doing a preliminary info gathering.

regards,

Originally Posted by vasudeva

Dear HSV

Thanks a lot for your appreciation, which is undeserving. I have now completed close to 10K on Corolla (9.9 K), and the only thing that has changed that is my leather seat covers now show some specks of black, which I cleaned yesterday with a hair shampoo (that is right). Other than that, so far it is smooth sailing with no appreciable drop/increase in FE. With close to 10K kms, I can say that FE of Corolla is the following (with reasonable degree of certainty):

Less traffic (say at 40-50 kmph for distance covered): 11-12 (with AC set at 25-26C).
Normal traffic (say at 25-30 kmph): 10-11
Heavy (15-25 kmph): 9-10

Negatives have more to do with the inadequate service centres even in a place like Delhi (I stay in East Delhi, and no service centre is less than 15 kms), lack of pick and drop.

Positives still include precise handling (I do not know why some people consider Corolla to be a poor handler, because I find it very zippy and maneouvarable), decent FE, good visibility (with a cushion since I am only 5'4'), and high preciseness of steering (ie there is no uncertainty of car steering more or less than I hoped for), and all the other things noted in my initial report. I am so far happy (I anyway am a quite contented person) with my car. But 10K is hardly a decent mileage for problems to crop up. But minor problems did crop up in my old Corsa before that point (to be fair, they also surfaced in my earlier Zen and 800, so no panning of GM). Let me hope that Toyota's reputation is deserved. Of course Civic sells more deservedly, Corolla's new edition is expected to be out in late-2008, and my resale value will go down, but these things hardly matter to me. Unless Lord Krishna has other plans, I plan to stick with the Corolla for at least 125-150K kms.

[vasudeva]

Please buy an AT only, whether it is Corolla, Civic, or City. If you plan to buy now, then Corolla can be considered since the new model is at least a year away. But into 2008, do not consider it. However, as I did, you may consider a car in Jan-Feb. This is because I was getting a 109,000 discount on 2006 production Corolla, but only a 45K discount on 2007. That enabled me to go for H4 rather than H3 (both are automatic but H4 has leather, auto headlights, steering audio, rear sunscreen, and other minor gizmos). Regarding the discounts you are currently getting, if they say 65K+3K on insurance+3 yr service seem fine with me. I also haggled a lot, but unlike GM dealers, Toyota (and I found Honda too) dealers are perfectly willing to walk away without giving you further calls about more money for you. Perhaps you can haggle for more but do not expect say a further gain of even 5-7K. As far I can see, you are getting a benefit of around 12-15K on service (assuming that your service would be totally free, you will get 6 service from 10K-60K at 10K intervals, the 1K service is anyway free, and will not include any costs in the fine print).

As far I can consider the following automatics can be considered:
Civic, City, Corolla, Sonata (sorry, inspite of being the best looker for me, Skoda is not being recommended by me, though others may have a different opinion). The car you buy depends on your budget with Civic AT at around 13 (with very little discounts), Corolla at 11.5-12.3, City at 8.5 (although if VTEC had an AT, I would have preferred it simply for the lower cost), and Sonata Diesel AT at around 15-16 (discounts here would be higher, and dealers will even fill your tank to sell a Sonata). 2nd hand-Corolla and City only. Santro AT is supposed to be decent but I do not know whether lower cost means lower quality/higher problems. Perhaps Santro AT owners can enlighten. Definitely Santro AT is a low cost reasonable choice for sedate city driving. But it did not excite me much since I drive on the Delhi-Gurgaon `messway'.

On service, I took a Smiles Package, which is for 20K/1 year and results in no labour cost, but consummables cost. The 10K service which I got recently on 8-9-07 was for Rs. 1150. However, without the Smiles, it was I think around Rs. 2K. This included engine oil (around 500-550 for 4Ltr.), and other consummables. From what I can gather, Honda also has low service cost but it needs to be serviced at 5K. Thus 2-2.5K should be a reasonable figure for a Corolla 10K interval service (other owners with longer mileage on their car may clarify).

Anyway do not even look at a manual even if it means a delay of sometime. I am happy with my car and as of now, although you may laugh, I think it the max. size that I aspire to given the traffic, and perhaps my next big car could also be a Corolla (the coming model or the model after that in 2015). Perhaps even a smaller Toyota/Honda AT for my wife in 2009-10). But I feel sorry for my wife who now has to drive a manual Corsa. She is scared of Corolla because of its size, and because she only learnt driving in March 2007.

[vasudeva]

Regarding fixing dents, scratches are unavoidable, but I found Corolla to be better resistant at dents because of its high tyre profile. Only 2 weeks back, a Hyundai Accent banged on my car's side rear at around 40kmph. Fortunately, my tyres took most of the impact with minor scratches (which I rubbed off). But the Accent's front right fender was heavily dented. Another instance was when I was getting my tyres filled with a scooter behind me. Suddenly a novice banged the scooter who then proceeded to hit my bumper at great force. The rear bumper went in but fortunately again it came out intact with only minor scratches and paint peel off. I think denting/painting job at Toyota takes around 4.5-5K per panel. PS: I got the peeled off bumper portion painted at a local painter for 800 with no difference at all. I thought bumpers do get hit on a regular basis, and going to Toyota makes sense only if the damage is large.