[AulusGabinius]

Originally Posted by hikozaru

Can someone tell me who the target audience for this bike is.

I want a refined multicylinder bike. Understandable. Get the Aprilia RS457 for 4.1L
I want a refined multicylinder bike that is reliable. Understandable. Get the Yamaha R3 for 4.65L
I want a reliable, refined multicylinder bike that is comfortable. Understandable. Get the Ninja 400 for 5.25L (or 5L on discounts)
I want a reliable, comfortable, refined multicylinder bike that can take two side panniers, a top box and a pillion. Why not buy a used 4cylinder car at that point. It does everything the CB500X does better except for slightly better acceleration and top speed?

I want a refined multicylinder bike that is comfortable, has an ADV posture, long travel suspension to keep me going long after the roads go bad, is supremely reliable, and that I can stand up on, and works brilliantly on a highway.

Aprilia RS457 is a sports bike. For someone who hates committed sports bikes for long rides, it's an automatic DQ for it and the R3. Even worse if you have long legs like me. I utterly dislike the Ninja 400 for the same reason. And a car for that price is going to be slower, and far more boring.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by windiesel

Himalayan is just no comparision where low end torque and spread of power across the rev band is concerned...they aren't even in the same pin code!.

Not sure how many here has had the opportunity to try the CB500X, let alone back to back with the Himalayan 450. I have two CB500Xs in my friends circle and thankfully have had this opportunity. In addition to my friend's bike - I also pulled in CB500X owner BHPian KarthikK to ride the Himalayan as well to give his opinions.

We both have two different perspectives on whether the Honda is worth 2X the price or not - but what we both do agree on is that the Himalayan does come close. It surely lacks on low end, refinement and reliability compared to the Honda - but also makes up for it with similar big bike feel and proportions, engaging midrange performance, better offroad ability, competent suspension, cheaper running and maintenance costs - all at half the price tag.



Since it is very relevant to the discussion, cross posting both our perspectives on the Himalayan vs CB500X topic below.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

CB500X is the superior bike, no doubt! It has much better refinement, better rideability, and slightly better performance and ofcourse reliability. Himalayan has its positives too - it has better offroad ability, better suspension balance (500X is a bit too soft on the highways IMHO), does similar speeds and I find it more fun than the Honda.

That said - my personal answer is just a simple no! A lakh or max a half more would have made sense, but the current potential price differential is too much IMHO. When the 500X was sold with massive discounts, it was still a 7L bike in Bangalore which is 2x the price of the base Himalayan now. And it's not a one time thing either - something like tyres will cost 3x more for the 500X than the RE. Going that route - I would look at used Versys 650s instead of the 500X.

Guess we would start getting these comparisons from media outlets when the Himalayan starts hitting markets abroad.

Originally Posted by KarthikK

At the outset I wouldn’t compare these two due to the vast price difference they operate at, but here goes:
The CB500X has a slightly softer setup on the rear than the new Himalayan. Low and moderate speeds (say <70-80kmph) ride comfort over bad roads - Cb500X is more plush and cushioned than the Himalayan.
High speed composure - Himalayan has a slightly stiffer setup so doesn’t feel as bouncy over undulations at higher speed, scores over the 500x here.
Handling - the Himalayan has a stiffer setup on the rear but has a 21” front wheel, while the 500x has a softer rear but a better (for roads) 19” setup for the front so it evens out in my opinion. No clear winner here.

Would it be worth spending the extra lacs on the 500X?
My answer - it is very subjective to what you as a buyer feel your priority is. The 500X costs twice as much for similar kind of powertrain, so from a pure economical and value proposition angle, the Himalayan is more bang for the buck. The new one especially offers a similar level of performance for half the price.

However, the 500X is a time-tested and proven product with stellar CKD build quality, Honda’s Japanese reliability, twin cylinder refinement, fantastic ergonomics aided by a 5 year warranty support from Honda and no-nonsense service. The engine on the 500x is a gem and the mechanicals and ergonomics are mostly well sorted with nothing to complain about on any aspect.

On the flip side of being a ckd product, as CrAzY_dRiVeR pointed out, spares and tyres (500x uses bigger tyre sizes) costs will be more like a 7L Adv, not a 3L Adv. At any point if the focus is on max bang for the buck and ownership costs, Himalayan being a locally made product with RE’s vast service network will always win the battle.

I moved from the old Himalayan 411 camp to the CB500X camp 2 years ago and couldn’t be happier with my decision. Whatever I did with the old Himalayan I am able to enjoy better with the 500X today, with the additional refinement and peace of mind of a bulletproof Jap. But will those aspects be worth putting 3 lacs more? It was a yes for me. Would I have bought it even with the new Himalayan in the picture? It’s a yes again from me, just my preference after being spoilt by the refined twin and sorted ergonomics on the 500X now over 16,000km of usage . But one disagreement with CrAzY_dRiVeR on - Would I look at a used Versys just because I can get one with the same 7L of money? No. It’s a lot more top-heavy and the heft feels like a proper big bike which commands a lot more careful handling at low speeds and offroad than these two (H452 or 500x) - May not be everyone’s piece of cake if you intend to tread offroad patches often, maybe a used Vstrom 650 might make things more interesting in that budget. Multiple and extensive test rides of all your options are the key to eventually deciding what you want to prioritise putting your money on at the end of the day.

All in all - A very subjective tradeoff dilemma that buyers have to solve for themselves . All I can say about the H452 is that in this price segment, it really is a superb proposition. Do however also check out the KTM Adv 390 too! That’s another comparo that prospects should be very interested in.

[AtheK]

Originally Posted by windiesel

Well, it has double the cylinders!! Jokes apart, the CB500X has been a best seller the world over, as a do it all motorcycle for a decade plus, for a reason- it's supremely versatile engine. While the Himalayan has a cult following amongst the ADV riders, the CB is a do it all, even the Brazilian president has one! And being an almost perfect square twin with equal bore and stroke, the new short stroke (a la KTM) Himalayan is just no comparision where low end torque and spread of power across the rev band is concerned...they aren't even in the same pin code!.

While the bikes might not be in same pin code, it still does the majority of what this bike does. Yes, people are looking for refinement and love that two cylinder that a Brazilian president owns, but then there are people who see absolutely no value in plonking 100% extra money for a bike that does 30% more, with expensive spare parts and dodgy service network.

I will be happy to see this bike succeed, but at this price point it will be more in reach of Indian politician kids, than the common man, who would be happy spending their hard-earned money somewhere else. Sales numbers will anyway speak for themselves. Honda needs to get the CKD route going quickly, they have such good products but priced out of reach for the majority.

[Axe77]

@CD: This comparo plot is going to thicken only further when the next gen KTM 390A (based on the current Duke 390) hits the market. I’m crystal ball gazing here but it might just be that sweet middle spot which commands a palatable premium and gives an entirely different value and performance proposition compared to the above two.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by Axe77

@CD: This comparo plot is going to thicken only further when the next gen KTM 390A (based on the current Duke 390) hits the market. I’m crystal ball gazing here but it might just be that sweet middle spot which commands a palatable premium and gives an entirely different value and performance proposition compared to the above two.

To hell with that.

If the detuned 790 aka 650 comes through as suggested online by Pierer Himself and made in India, well that will really set the cat amongst pigeons.

[Nilesh5417]

Originally Posted by Axe77

@CD: This comparo plot is going to thicken only further when the next gen KTM 390A (based on the current Duke 390) hits the market. I’m crystal ball gazing here but it might just be that sweet middle spot which commands a palatable premium and gives an entirely different value and performance proposition compared to the above two.

Value wise, the 400s make total sense. They are almost up there in terms of power, features, frugality and yet reasonably priced. But they are all going to be mostly single cylinders to keep the OTR below 5L. That's my only grouse - those single cylinder vibes or buzz or what ever you call them. Not a deal breaker for the majority but its always preferable to have options in the market even if some of them don't grace the showrooms much after launch.

[mad4nfs]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Attaching the press release, as received, for reference:


Commenting on the launch of the NX500, Mr. Yogesh Mathur, Director, Sales and Marketing, Honda Motorcycle & Scooter India, said, “We are pleased to introduce the all-new NX500 in the Indian market within three months of its global debut at EICMA 2023. As we embark on this exciting journey, we are confident that the NX500 will surely excite the ADV buyers in India.

No Mr. Mathur, this excites no one. Please resign and hire someone who really understands biker community. HMSI is literally repeating the same mistake of over-pricing their premium products again and again. I really wanted to buy this bike since its launch at EICMA but I am gonna save some more money and gonna buy a litre class from another sensible Jap!

[Turbosailor]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Attaching the press release, as received, for reference:

1. Wouldn't a 5.5L or lower ex-showroom be easy to achieve had it been CKD?

2. How much premium Honda had charged when pricing the original CKD CB500X at 6.8 lakhs?

Finally Honda managed to launch something which many riders was waiting and waiting for years. Now many new product have launched compared to old CB500X days. Need to wait and see how market responds. They could have easily localize many parts and bring the cost down or should had brought in CKD route. Now Aprilla have shown us that its possible to make good multi cylinder bikes keeping cost within limit. Hopefully aprilla can make a 457 Tuono/Tuareg soon.

[Turbosailor]

While browsing through HMSI website notice they have removed CB650R / CBR650R. Are they getting ready to launch their updated editions or discontinued

[Senotrius]

Let's also wait for the 5 or so odd units of 2024 CB500 Hornet Honda may bring to India. The CKD CB300R only got a price cut recently. And it's a bit costly compared to competition. In fact, Honda raised the price when they made the 300R a CKD from CBU( with cheaper quality components) a few years ago. It's the only case of the same I know in India. Honda= Hyper level arrogance. Eagerly waiting for the Tbhp review of NX500 all the same.

[shyamg28]

Originally Posted by hikozaru

Can someone tell me who the target audience for this bike is....
...
I want a reliable, comfortable, refined multicylinder bike that can take two side panniers, a top box and a pillion. Why not buy a used 4cylinder car at that point. It does everything the CB500X does better except for slightly better acceleration and top speed?

Couple years ago, if my ability to afford a 2-up, comfortable tourer, was 7L on road and not a penny more, this bike would've been precisely the fit (from what KarthikK & CrazyDriver have mentioned, since I haven't personally ridden it myself). I would've ponied up personally.
However, I made the decision to jump to the next good offering which was more expensive. Not everyone can afford to make that jump. I was fortunate. Either that or I have poor financial sense. Whatever.

To argue that one can get the same via a 4 wheeler, I would be very careful going there. That argument can be made of multiple areas and facets of life. If we're talking purely from a practical standpoint, let's move to the Activa 100G or the Lord Alto thread instead and be done with it

In a country where we're often limited in terms of varied categories of multi-cylinder motorcycle offerings, we try to pick and choose the best among what's available.
Choosing the CBU option and pricing the way they have, Honda have shown yet again, how much they're willing to prioritise India. Maybe they've read the market and have it spot on. Maybe they don't. Either way, it is what it is. On road price is still substantial. But it's all relative. If it fits, it fits.

[hikozaru]

Originally Posted by shyamg28

To argue that one can get the same via a 4 wheeler, I would be very careful going there. That argument can be made of multiple areas and facets of life. If we're talking purely from a practical standpoint, let's move to the Activa 100G or the Lord Alto thread instead and be done with it

I did not mean that a car is more practical than a CB500X and therefore one should buy that instead. I simply meant that a Ninja 400 and to a lesser extent the R3 have very relaxed ergos and offer a more engaging experience for less money.

One does not really need 19" wheels and heels like suspension for touring, especially when you have to slow down on potholes and bumps because the car in front of you slowed down to a crawl anyway. On the flip side, I do a speedo indicated 40kmph quite regularly, part of my daily commute, on bumps, speed breakers and potholes on my hunter 350 with a sump guard on. I can count on my hand the number of times I've heard it scrape, ground clearance is simply not an issue. All those speeds has not cracked or bent my rims either. Sure the rear goes airborne all the time because of the rubbish stock shock which certainly is a bit unsettling, more so at lean, but the R3 has none of those issues.

Obviously none of this matters to the resolute buyer or a person who knows what they want. Just sharing my experience so that people don't blindly buy ADVs and soft roaders like they buy SUVs.

[handsofsteel]

Originally Posted by hikozaru

Can someone tell me who the target audience for this bike is.

I want a refined multicylinder bike. Understandable. Get the Aprilia RS457 for 4.1L
I want a refined multicylinder bike that is reliable. Understandable. Get the Yamaha R3 for 4.65L
I want a reliable, refined multicylinder bike that is comfortable. Understandable. Get the Ninja 400 for 5.25L (or 5L on discounts)
I want a reliable, comfortable, refined multicylinder bike that can take two side panniers, a top box and a pillion. Why not buy a used 4cylinder car at that point. It does everything the CB500X does better except for slightly better acceleration and top speed?

Bikers, by popular perception, are never practical. I’ve answered enough questions regarding - itne mein to car le lete - and rightly so. So, letting the used 4-cylinder car comparison slide.

An adv has its own set of advantages over a bike with an aggressive stance (the other bikes mentioned here), primary consideration being the comfort over longer distances and the ground clearance for our part of the world. Don’t know if it’s an apt analogy but while a sedan is anyday cheaper, the market still goes for the suv.

If I were in the market today, I don’t know if I would even look at the Aprilia in India (market presence/peace of mind regarding continued availability etc).

In a similar vein, Honda too has not been successful in India(with the exception of the cbr250). So yes, I would’ve definitely been happier with a ckd bike rather than the cbu as it indicates (at least to me) a more serious intention on part of the manufacturer. And of course, anybody would be happier with a cheaper bike.

The target audience, in my view, is those looking for a comfortable, reliable adv for travel over long distances but are put off by the higher prices of the 650s. As I’ve said before, 10L otr for a 650 is so not right. But then again, it’s a sign of the times and maybe I’m out of touch.

Till then, I’ll hope that this bike does well encouraging Honda to go the ckd route and drop prices. Then I’ll pick up a pre-owned CBU

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by hikozaru

I did not mean that a car is more practical than a CB500X and therefore one should buy that instead. I simply meant that a Ninja 400 and to a lesser extent the R3 have very relaxed ergos and offer a more engaging experience for less money.

Obviously none of this matters to the resolute buyer or a person who knows what they want. Just sharing my experience so that people don't blindly buy ADVs and soft roaders like they buy SUVs.

Just a few thoughts to help with this thinking.

1. ADV bikes are bought to go long distance touring in comfort. Comfortable seats, ergos, wide bars, wide pegs, good wind deflection both by the body of the bike and by the windshield, and soft pliable suspension tuned for comfort.

2. ADV bikes are bought to go touring with lots of luggage and your partner. This means the bike has a more stiffened sub frame that can handle more weight and not crack under the load or feel too light on the front end.

3. ADV bikes are bought to be a Swiss Army knife when your garage only allows one motorcycle to do everything. Note I don’t mean a track day, but a bike that can go touring, some soft roading, to the office, to the grocery shop, to the cafe.

4. ADV bikes are bought to go touring with minimal stops for gas. This means a nice big fuel tank with a range of atleast 400k. For those who have toured places like the northeast, this is a veritable life saver.

5. Yes, any motorcycle can be used to tour. After all it is you who is touring, the bike in question will not really complain. But if I had the money to spend on a motorcycle and all of the above were my primary use cases, why would I be daft to go buy something not designed ground up for touring in the first place and then go about applying my chimp brain into making it a touring bike? Especially when we now have options of comfortable touring adv bikes in every category at every price point and at every engine class? This was not the case 10 years back.

Buying a motorcycle or anything else for that matter is simply a function of what an individuals use case is . For many, this Honda is probably the only option for an adv bike well under 10 lakhs to carry 2 and luggage in comfort, Honda reliability, the ability of that engine to not suffer under the weight load at 3 digit speeds, and a bunch of other less important things.

If I was in the market with above use case, and only keen on buying new, and want that Honda fail safe of an engine, this is it. And I don’t think Honda will have any trouble at all to move these off the floor in the current market.

People who buy adv motorcycles are some of the keenest perceivers of their individual use case. I have not come across a single serious motorcyclist on an adv bike who has been unhappy with their choice (not in terms of brand or model, but in terms of body type - adv vs naked vs sports bike etc). If they switch it will only always be for another adv.

[rishi.roger]

Honda reliability and Twin Cylinder Feel is not going to make most people shell out twice the amount on NX500 even though it has been priced sanely.
If this was priced 4.75-5L, it would have been worth consideration IMO.