[Malhi]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Unlikely since there is no wetness after replacing the plugs, but running extremely rich to the extent that the motorcycle is smoking would wear down your cylinder kit in a really short period of time courtesy a phenomenon called Bore Wash, Google it.

As per your advice I googled Bore Wash. Half through the first search result I already started to have a bad feeling about it and so I rushed down to bike in the middle of the night, unscrewed the oil cap, dipped my fingers inside. They came out smelling of petrol.

I am also pretty sure that the Bore ‘washing’ has already started as engine clatter and (wooden) knocks have been my concern for quite sometime.

I think what follows now is getting the barrel inspected first and then moving on the injection system? Please guide.

Kudos to your assessment though. I don’t think Bore Wash in RE’s has been much discussed even on this forum.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by Malhi

I think what follows now is getting the barrel inspected first and then moving on the injection system? Please guide.

Nothing much to do, your motorcycle is running rich and since you have a FI there's nothing much you could do than check the basics, which ArizonaJim has mentioned in detail:

Originally Posted by ArizonaJim

No. Royal Enfield does not have OBD 2 or an interface that supports it.

The fuel injected Royal Enfields do have a built in test lead but a scanner is not plugged into it.

Instead, a wire with a male connector attached to it is available so the owner or a mechanic can attach a grounding (earth) wire to it.

Once grounded turning on the ignition switch with a key activates the ECU which in turn causes the MIL light to blink.

The MIL will blink a series of short flashes and long blinks.
There may be several error codes stored so the MIL may blink several different sets of long and short blinks.
Once the error codes have been shown, the computer will repeat the series.

The number of long and short blinks for each error code should be noted and recorded on a piece of paper.

Once that is done, disconnect the ground wire and turn the ignition off. Then check the Service Manual (or here) for an interpretation of the codes.

The following list should be helpful:

ROYAL ENFIELD ERROR CODES

0 LONG, 6 SHORT = THROTTLE POSITION SENSOR ERROR
0 LONG, 9 SHORT = MANIFOLD PRESSURE SENSOR ERROR
1 LONG, 1 SHORT = OIL TEMPERATURE SENSOR ERROR
1 LONG, 7 SHORT = 02 SENSOR CIRCUIT ERROR (WHEN FITTED)
4 LONG, 5 SHORT = O2 SENSOR HEATER ERROR (WHEN FITTED)
1 LONG, 5 SHORT = ROLL OVER SENSOR ERROR
3 LONG, 3 SHORT = FUEL INJECTOR CIRCUIT ERROR
3 LONG, 7 SHORT = IGNITION COIL ERROR
4 LONG, 1 SHORT = FUEL PUMP ERROR
6 LONG, 6 SHORT = CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR ERROR

It should be noted that many times when people find these code errors it is the wiring electrical connector to the sensor that has become unplugged.
A fault with the actual sensor is quite rare.

In addition to these codes, some of the Royal Enfield repair shops also have a diagnostic computer that can be plugged directly into the ECU to obtain additional information but these cost far more than the average owner (or repair shop) would normally want to spend.
The high cost and limited use for these diagnostic computers, plus the built in self diagnostic MIL flashes being easily accessible on every fuel injected Royal Enfield results in few places having them.

Hopefully this has answered the question about OBD 2 tests.

Hope that helps.

Kudos to your assessment though. I don’t think Bore Wash in RE’s has been much discussed even on this forum.

It's a very common thing to happen if you're running excessively rich. If you take preventive action at the earliest you may be able to save critical components from serious damage.

Cheers,
A.P.

[Malhi]

Hello everyone, I just did a DIY error diagnosis, hopefully the correct way.



The video clip couldn’t be uploaded because of the format I believe but the results are as follows:

1st series - 6 long and 6 short
2nd series- 3 long and 7 short

Can this be related to carbon soot on the plugs, bore wash and black smoke or is it something totally different?

Kindly suggest.

Thanks,
Malhi.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by Malhi

Can this be related to carbon soot on the plugs, bore wash and black smoke or is it something totally different?

Issue seems to be ignition related.

Do pull the primary plugs cap off and run the motor without the cap I.e HT cable barely touching the plug, once the motor is running, introduce some distance between the plug and the cable while ensuring you do not get shocked.

If the spark is healthy and doesn't skip a beat at different throttle positions then all is well, if not then you'd need to look into the CPS and IC as advised by the diagnostics.

[ArizonaJim]

Originally Posted by Malhi

Hello everyone, I just did a DIY error diagnosis, hopefully the correct way.

Attachment 1952983

The video clip couldn’t be uploaded because of the format I believe but the results are as follows:


1st series - 6 long and 6 short
2nd series- 3 long and 7 short

Can this be related to carbon soot on the plugs, bore wash and black smoke or is it something totally different?

Kindly suggest.

Thanks,
Malhi.

As both of the codes deal with the ignition, that's the place to start looking for the problem.
Trying to run the engine without the spark plug cap probably won't show much if any change in how the engine runs because the problem is deeper than that.

If the crankshaft position sensor is giving bad readings, things like the ignition timing and fuel injector pulses could be incorrect and that would cause the rich condition to exist.
Your best solution would be to take the motorcycle to a RE service shop, tell them what your error codes say and hope they can find the problem.

By the way. The error codes are stored in the computer and they will remain there unless they are removed. If that happens, each time you test for them, old codes will still show up.

I'm borrowing the explanation below from another person but it will tell you how to remove the old codes. (I capitalized it so it would be easy to see).

Here's what to do:

HOW TO REMOVE OLD ERROR CODES

1. Start the process with key off and set the kill switch to the run position . This is so when you do turn the key on, the Mil light comes on and the fuel pump as it normally would.

2. Connect a grounding jumper from the purple wire at the ECU to chassis ground.... to the motor or an unpainted area of the frame or to the negative side of the battery.

3. Fully open the throttle.

4. With the kill switch in the run position, turn the key on. At this point the Mil light and pump will come on as normal.

5. After the Mil light goes out, and BEFORE it comes back on, to start blinking the codes.... release the throttle. This period is more like ten seconds between the time the Mil light comes on initially and when the Mil light will start blinking it's codes. You have to release that throttle RIGHT before the Mil light starts going into the code blinks it seems.

The Mil light blinks a couple of times... and no more codes.

You can test to make sure the codes are gone, by simply turning the key back off. Disconnect the grounded purple wire, then..

Reattach the purple wire to chassis ground.

With the kill switch set to the run position, turn the key on.

The Mil light and fuel pump will come on as normal, then go back off.

Wait ten or more seconds , and if the mil light does not start blinking again, the codes are gone . If you had a code, that Mil light would start to blink again after 10-12 seconds. If it dosent start blinking again after that time goes by ? You good it seems !!


Hope this helps.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by ArizonaJim

If the crankshaft position sensor is giving bad readings, things like the ignition timing and fuel injector pulses could be incorrect and that would cause the rich condition to exist.

Please do explain this in detail as I would very much like to know how bad ignition timing can cause the motorcycle to run rich. As they say, best to seize every learning opportunity.

And I'm just leaving this here, do feel free to ignore.

Commonsense dictates that you always and I repeat you ALWAYS start with the spark consistency when it comes to matters of the ignition, FI or Carb cause a troubled spark can easily explain all the OP's symptoms i.e Smoking Exhaust and Hard Knocking.

Cheers,
A.P.

[Malhi]

Thanks ArizonaJim. The problem is that the RR service guys in my part of town are hopeless. During my visit before last they suggested me to go for a piston and barrel replacement and now this time the only way out I apparently had was either a full throttle body change or a carb conversion. There is just one “Ustaad” at the service centre who stays miles away from the ecu setup.

At the moment I can only rely on one ‘former’ mechanic who now works at Jawa. He is somewhat coherent and has suggested me to start with a engine compression test and then move to the valves and the piston.

Further, I was keen on doing the Throttle Position Sensor voltage test myself, however, it did not go very well as the Allen key slipped and the screw is free now. It’s now screwed at a leaner position and so I get a delayed throttle response every now and then. This needs to be fixed too. The code of the screw key/wrench is T-25 and the cavity is a mushroom shaped hexagon but I don’t know the exact dimensions.


It would be of great help if someone could suggest me a decent mechanic or a service station in Delhi who have the relevant knowledge in dealing this issue.


Thanks,
Malhi.

[Vinoy Khanikar]

Hi Guys,

I'm new to this forum and not sure if this is the right place to ask a question regarding problems with my bike.

I have a 2015 RE Classic 350. It has run 27,000 km so far and has had no major issues or part replacement so far. The only major part replaced so far was chain sprocket at around 20,000 km.

So, getting to the problem. I recently started experiencing random jerks while riding the bike. It would feel as if the fuel has come to reserve, but that's not the case. I initially ignored the issue coz it was very random and occurred once/twice in about 4-5 days. The problem worsened over time and reached a point where the engine would suddenly stop while riding. It took quite a lot of kicking to start the bike then, but it would start eventually. It's been about 4 months this problem started and I have shown the bike to auth. Service Center and local mechanics and non could find the problem. Service Center guys couldn't recreate the problem so just did general service and some check up in order to find the problem but couldn't. A thing to note is that ever since this problem started, the kick has become very smooth, like buttery smooth. So I thought it was some compression issue and there wasn't enough compression building in the engine to start/keep it running. When I told this to local mechanic he told me that the engine bore and valves need to be replaced. But I had doubts and did not do that. Few days ago the bike stopped again while running and luckily this time there was local mechanic near by. This guy instantly checked if there was spark coming to spark plugs (I don't know why I never thought of this) and it wasn't. He then immediately opened left tool box and cleaned the ECU (blue color box like thing) as there was some white powdery rusting on it due to rain water. After cleaning the bike instantly started and the mechanic suggested the ECU might be faulty and I should get it replaced. The bike was running fine for sometime after ECU cleaning and I thought the problem was solved. But then few days back the horn & indicator fuse blew (out of the blue and while the engine was still running) this was weird. Because I knew which fuse blew I replaced it with spare one myself, and it blew as well the moment I tested the horn. So I took this to local mechanic to get the fuse replaced and ended up blowing 2 more fuses but this time in addition to one of the 15amp fuse in the left tool kit. I finally took the bike to auth. Service Center and after checking the bike the service supervisor said this was probably a wiring issue. I gave the bike for repairs and after that issue seemed to be fixed. I rode the bike home and did not feel any jerks (it has not been there ever since ECU cleaning by the local mechanic) and all electrical components worked fine. The next day I though of going for a ride, I turn on the ignition and being cautious checked if every electrical component was fine or not. I even checked if the main fuse were fine, it was. I then turn on the bike and boom! the dies in 2 sec. I tried everything to start the bike but nothing happened, all electricals were dead - no headlights, horn, indicators, neutral or brake lights.

So this is the current state of my bike and I have no clue what the problem is? Don't know if this is a wiring problem or the ECU or something else. The battery is fine as I tried shorting + & - and there was spark. But there's nothing on spark plug. I will eventually give the bike to service center to fix the problem but I want to know what's wrong so I can specifically tell them what to fix rather than them tell me random parts to replace.

Again, let me know if this isn't the right place to post this and I'll move it.

[ArizonaJim]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Please do explain this in detail as I would very much like to know how bad ignition timing can cause the motorcycle to run rich. As they say, best to seize every learning opportunity.

And I'm just leaving this here, do feel free to ignore.

Commonsense dictates that you always and I repeat you ALWAYS start with the spark consistency when it comes to matters of the ignition, FI or Carb cause a troubled spark can easily explain all the OP's symptoms i.e Smoking Exhaust and Hard Knocking.

Cheers,
A.P.

If the crank position sensor is giving faulty readings, the ECU could cause the ignition timing to be late. If this happens, the fuel charge will not burn completely creating what looks like an overly rich condition. Spark inconsistency which you mention can also cause misfiring which will wet the spark plug and combustion chamber making the next time the cylinder actually fires a rich burn.


Getting back to the ECU fault codes, these are often caused by poor electrical conductivity in the wiring that leads to the faulty operation of the sensor.
The first place I would look is at the connectors that lead to the crankshaft position sensor and the connectors that lead to the ignition coil.
These connectors sometimes get water in them causing corrosion. More than a few times, they are also not fully plugged together.
Disconnecting each of them and examining them for corrosion should be a first priority. It's also a good idea to apply a dielectric grease to them prior to reconnecting them to prevent corrosion.


The throttle position sensor must also be set to indicate the correct voltage when the throttle is closed. This voltage should be 0.6 +/- 0.2 volts. If it is incorrect, the ECU could cause excess fuel to be injected into the cylinder.
The manifold air pressure sensor is also a likely item that could cause the engine to run in a rich condition.
Although this didn't show up as a fault code, the computer just looks at whether it is working. Not if the information it is feeding to the ECU is correct.



In any case, the throttle body should not need to be replaced.

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by ArizonaJim

If the crank position sensor is giving faulty readings, the ECU could cause the ignition timing to be late. If this happens, the fuel charge will not burn completely creating what looks like an overly rich condition.

Any method by which we can sense the crank position sensor signal. Maybe through a Multi or something?. What is the normal voltage level of this sensor?.

[adrian]

Originally Posted by srini1785

Any method by which we can sense the crank position sensor signal. Maybe through a Multi or something?. What is the normal voltage level of this sensor?.

Ignition timing can be verified through the inspection hole on the RH side cover.

The following page of the service manual deals with diagnostic tests of pulsar and starter coil

Service Manual Final 2.pmd.pdf

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by adrian

Ignition timing can be verified through the inspection hole on the RH side cover.

Thanks. The manual gives the base resistance value of a healthy pulsar coil. However, how can you find when the coil is providing the pulse for ignition?. How to do we measure it in terms of voltage or change in resistance.

With older points, the exact point of trigger is when two breaker contacts start separating. Based on this you can set your OHC for timing the valves.



The point of trigger is set with a feeler gauge as per the bikes manual. Btw, the above picture is for reference only and is not that of RE.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by srini1785

Thanks. The manual gives the base resistance value of a healthy pulsar coil. However, how can you find when the coil is providing the pulse for ignition?. How to do we measure it in terms of voltage or change in resistance.

Voltage doesn't come into the picture as the Pulser is merely a trigger for the CDI, if you have a look at the Magneto you can spot a point, this when passes near the pulser coil triggers it, there is no physical contact like points.

You can measure change in resistance but only if you manually rotate the motor and align it, hence you see why you cant diagnose the same with resistance on a running motor.

We can use a timing light to check if everything is in order but the easier means is if we diagnose by looking at the symptoms I.e the motorcycle would run fine at idle speeds but as soon as the revs go up the motorcycle starts to bog, this is why I'm not convinced by Jim's explanation of the CPS resulting in a RICH condition, cause the plug will foul and the motorcycle would emit smoke, but it would practically be unrideable and the OP has mentioned that he is able to ride the motorcycle.

P.S. Here's a quote from my own ownership thread when I'd faced issues with the pickup coil;

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

...now she idles fine but skips fires and shakes like crazy and gives out black smoke when I open the throttle, in short she idles fine but is un-ride-able. .

BTW, I've never owned a motorcycle with points but I believe it's the same symptoms as when the contacts float on a point system due to wear.

With older points, the exact point of trigger is when two breaker contacts start separating. Based on this you can set your OHC for timing the valves.

On current motorcycles there is a mark indicating the exact point where the ignition is supposed to fire, below is the magneto of the ZMA, you'll notice TDC and FIRE markings on it.

The point of trigger is set with a feeler gauge as per the bikes manual. Btw, the above picture is for reference only and is not that of RE.

There is no scope of adjustment on modern motorcycles. The position is fixed as there is no wear and tear due to 'NO' physical contact present.

Cheers,
A.P.

[adrian]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

There is no scope of adjustment on modern motorcycles.
A.P.

What is the chance of the TPS being a culprit in the scenario ?

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by adrian

What is the chance of the TPS being a culprit in the scenario ?

The photo of the magnet of the ZMA was taken using a crappy phone back in 2011 hence why its not clear, but if you pay close attention you can see that there are two parallel lines, that denotes the FULL ADVANCE, here's a picture sourced from Dan's MC Course where he identifies each mark;



As the revs climb the ignition timing is advanced so as to make sure that the charge is ignited before the piston reaches TDC even at higher speeds.

All is fine and well until you dump the throttle, so to compensate for that we have a Throttle Positioning Sensor(TPS) which controls the rate of advance of the ignition timing in accordance with throttle input/load.

So to put it simply, the possibility of the TPS resulting in this condition simply going by logic doesn't make sense, but then again I'm no expert on FI systems hence why my arguments are suggestive so far.

Cheers,
A.P.