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Old 14th October 2021, 11:57   #33721
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I don't understand why fellow BHPians find my post to be ridiculing others or mocking others. No place did I mock anyone for their choice, all I wanted to do is point to people that they should give a higher weightage when buying new cars for city use because there are many examples on this thread itself of fatal accidents in city limits - in many cases, the victim was innocent as well!

I said that people try to justify their purchase by saying that their usage is limited to City limits - the thought which I was trying to correct.
Did, I say everyone should spend and buy a BMW? Or, should everyone put their houses on mortgage just so they can afford a safer car? No! Also, I think there are safer cars available at every price point, except maybe in the Spresso category (but for people moving from 2 wheelers, that is a safe upgrade - that is good!)

Also, safety is a relative aspect. I recognise that a 4 wheeler is safer than a 2-wheeler. If someone comprises on other aspects of life and gets a entry level 4 wheeler, then I appreciate that! No, I am not ridiculing them that could only afford an entry-level 4 wheeler because they made a safer choice. See, it is a relative thing. People have died in Mercedes and Audis and survived in Maruti 800, Altos!

Similarly, by justifying to themselves that they will only use their car in the city, people go for a car that has say, more features at the same price point than a safer car which lacks in a few features here n there. And what more? A few months down the line, they may not even use those features and on the other hand, they have a structurally compromised car giving them false sense of safety.

Yes, I understand there are more considerations to buying a car like -
  • Availability of Service Center close by.
  • Your budget
  • Past bad experiences with a particular manufacturer
  • Recommendations of family members, relatives
  • Look & feel of the car and features you definitely wanted.
So, I know that safety can't be the only parameter when buying a car. All I wanted to do was request people to give a higher weightage to safety.
Maybe, you will have to drive 5kms more to get it serviced, maybe the lounge sofa of that companies' service centers are not as comfortable, maybe they don't serve coffee to you when you get your car serviced, maybe the touchscreen of the safer car has lower resolution or it is smaller - guess what? It does the work and you are not in the car to watch a movie - 99% of time everyone's eyes are on the road.

Until and unless we vote with our purse, the manufacturers aren't going to let go of their profits for something that isn't even visible to people in the showrooms - jo dikhta hai wohi bikta hai (what is visible is what sells!).

Maybe my usage of the word 'tin can' is what fellow bhpians found to be ridiculing or mocking. I guess I should have used 'less safer alternatives' in its place but 'tin can' is very widely used on the forum. What else to call a tin can than a tin can?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shancz View Post
Some points :
- Having a GNCAP rated car is no guarantee of safety under every situation and all speeds. GNCAP doesn't test for rear end impacts except whiplash handling of seats. Your premise is incorrect.

- IMO, no justification is needed on how anyone wants to spend their money. Members explain the reasoning to help others understand the decision making process.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions but what is incorrect is the shaming of people for their choices which qualifies as trolling IMHO and we don't want that in TBHP do we ?

Life and car choices aren't that as simple as you think they are but I hope you empathise with others before forming opinions.
1. This is such a moot point I regularly see people making on the forum. Yes, GNCAP doesn't test for every situation. My post was in general, not particular to the Celerio and BMW accident. It is a testing program, you cannot test something for every situation, there can be millions of permutations & combinations, so that means GNCAP should test millions of cars of same model? They test for scenarios that are most likely to happen, easier to analyze the strength of the car. If a car fails in something as basic as a frontal overlap crash, what expectation do you have from it in other scenarios? It is like saying that following doesn't matter because they don't test each and every thing (these are just examples) -
  • School exams because they are not testing everything in a student. It is an assessment method. There can be other methods, but they can be more complex. Exams are an easy method to test students.
  • GDP estimates - because they don't give true representation of living standard of the people, social standards of the country, black money in the economy, the 'care economy' of the country. So, does that means GDP estimates are useless (because they don't include every sector) and the many hotshot companies using GDP estimates to give credit rating for countries are fools?
  • Any kind of index like Human Development Index, Easy of Doing Business Index because they only use a number of criterion to give their rankings.
The thing is, any kind of testing, estimate, index, report will always only be able to test for some fixed parameters which are most likely to represent what they are trying to test. GNCAP does the same. So, my premise is not incorrect.

2. And I am not attacking their reasonings. People are entitled to spend how they want. But people do give justifications that a safer car was not needed because their usage is city limited (if you go and scout ownership threads, you will get plenty of examples. Yes, this is a justification and not a reasoning.) and this gives rise to wrong thinking - something which I was trying to point out!

3. i don't understand what part of my post gave you the impression that I was shaming people for their choices. So, any type of advising or correcting people so that they can make better choices amounts to shaming? I am sorry, that is not the kind of world I live in! If I see someone near & dear to me making a choice, I will always try to help them by providing them a wider range of things to consider. And that is what I tried to do with my previous post, Team-BHP is like a family to me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
I am transitioning from a Bajaj Auto, a motorcycle or some two wheeler? For me, that tin can is 100x safer than being exposed on two wheels.

I would not ridicule someone if they can't afford or they bought a vehicle that has a poor safety rating. We don't know about their situation in life. Some of us cannot afford a flash 5 Star GNCAP vehicle.
Yes, a tin can is 100x safer for such person. And, I personally applaud the person for investing more for their safety.
Again, I did not ridicule someone because they couldn't afford a high-end safe car. I did not even ridicule anyone for purchasing a less safer car at the same price point as the safer car. In fact, I did not ridicule anyone! I only tried to point out that they should give more considerations to safety if possible.
I did not even say that your car should be 5 star GNCAP! If in your budget, the safest car is a 3 star one, isn't it better to go for that one instead of a 0 star tin can, given the compromises you will have to make for the 3 star one will not give you a headache (like lower mileage, far away SC, mocking from relatives etc.)?
See, I understand there is no limit to how much safety can one desire for because then everyone would be moving about in tanks and armored cars. People everyday are traversing in rickshaws, buses, Sumos and Boleros, Audis and BMWs - it is a relative concept. My intention was only to request people to give higher considerations to safety as much as is possible for them instead of the flashy stuff - this is life and no offence but whatever you do when it is our time to go, we will go that doesn't mean we start playing subway surfers in real life!
Many first time buyers (with rising incomes, many first time buyers are not entry level but buyers in the 5-10L bracket) are not even aware or the thought about structural strength etc. don't come in their mind and we as a community should help them become aware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NG_EV View Post
Completely agree on the point of not ridiculing someone on the basis of purchase but it does not exempt the manufacturers who are building and pushing these tin cans without basic safety measures (both for occupants and the vehicle itself). A person riding on a 2 wheeler with his family will be driving slower as he knows he is more exposed and vulnerable. Same person driving in a 4 wheeler will be faster due to a sense of security (actual or false) that he is safer inside a car even if its a tin can.

Most first time car buyers are not aware of the basic safety requirements in a vehicle and are distracted by flashy stuff added on by the manufacturer. It is up to the regulatory authorities to not allow such vehicles to be sold in the name of them being a cheap car that has a high mileage. Everyone has a right to safe travel on the roads but if the vehicle we are travelling is unsafe even defensive driving will not protect us in case of mistakes from others.
Thank you, this is what I was trying to say.
Just because the common public isn't aware that manufacturers cut corners in the car's structural strength, they shouldn't be sold such cars giving them false of safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
1) Not everyone can afford a BMW.

2) Anyone buying a so called tin can buys it for various reasons. If you can afford a BMW or any other 5 star rated car, good for you. But you need not ridicule others who buy them.

3) Instead of a Celerio Vs a BMW, imagine a situation of a BMW Vs a dump truck. The BMW certainly will not save you.
1. Never said that everyone should buy a BMW.

2. Never ridiculed anyone! Didn't even say everyone should buy a 5 star rated car. Just said that a safe car is must! Safety is relative. An ABS equipped car is safer than a non-ABS car. A car is more safe than a bike. A ABS equipped bike is more safe than a non-ABS bike.
If one's budget permits, no point in saving a few thousands. Also, at the same budget, I tried to point out that safety should be given more weightage than fancy gadgets. Obviously, there can be other factors which will affect the decision process. But, buying a fancy looking tin can from one of the largest manufacturers because wow the screen is so big, wow the top of the dashboard is soft touch etc. is a bad thought-process which I was trying to point out to as people get distracted with fancy things in the showroom - basic human nature which the companies exploit. Again, I am not ridiculing them for their decision, if they like those things, they have all the right to go for it but as enthusiasts of team-bhp shouldn't we at least help them to think about the second side of the coin as well? If you think that is ridiculing then so be it!
See, every manufacturer has to make a car in a particular budget, so they prioritize one thing over the other, and it is not difficult to guess who cuts corners on what things by seeing the track record of companies.

3. And imagine the scenario of a dump truck versus a train. The dump truck will not save you! What point are you trying to make Honorable fellow BHPian?

It is a regressive thinking that young people are immature or can't think properly. In fact, the Gen Z are have more open thinking and sometimes have much wider thought processes. Obviously, like in any age group, some members of the age group will be more mature than others.

If a simple post requesting people to give higher considerations to 'their' safety irritates you so much that you personally attack others, maybe you shouldn't be on the forum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
Barring the absolute entry level cars such as the Alto, nearly every price bracket has safe cars and unsafe cars. The Tiago, for example, is a lot safer than the Celerio for comparable prices.

The point being made in the post you quoted is that city driving only does not mean one should not consider safety ratings in the purchase process.
Thank you very much for the support!
I feel extremely sad that a post made in good faith and goodwill was wrongly analyzed, incorrectly blamed and in fact, may I say ridiculed!
I rest my case!

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 14th October 2021 at 15:30. Reason: quoted post edited, and related bits removed. Thanks.
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:24   #33722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
If people send barbs, they should expect barbs and not bouquets in return. If you don't like it, too bad. Let me say there are even much older and senior members on the forum who post like 19 year olds. I am tired of this tin can barb at every available oppurutnty. A tin can is what I could afford, and I don't like people making fun of my affordability. Get it? Because it amounts to that.
Even I find the use the term "tin can" ridiculous. When friends/relatives ask for advice on which car to choose I just let the know which options are available, pros and cons of each one and if any known issues exist with that model etc.

I don't ask them to choose the safer option simply because it's their money and their personal decision on which car to get.

That being said, I think you should develop some thick skin against the term simply because it's not going to go away. There are even threads by owners that mention the term like Minor enhancements on a #TinCan - My modified Maruti Baleno.

In this case the OP only mentioned those customers who justify their decision to go with a relatively unsafe car by hanging onto the incorrect belief that people need safe cars only on highways or if they travel at high speeds. We have threads on the forum where members have described how Maruti Salesmen used to discourage people from buying the O variant by giving these excuses and quoting unreasonably long waiting periods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
2) Anyone buying a so called tin can buys it for various reasons. If you can afford a BMW or any other 5 star rated car, good for you. But you need not ridicule others who buy them.
His statement never ridiculed those with limited budgets or people who made the decision to go with a Maruti simply because of the positives that come with that brand. You seem to misunderstood it simply because you took it the Tin Can comment personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
3) Instead of a Celerio Vs a BMW, imagine a situation of a BMW Vs a dump truck. The BMW certainly will not save you.
Pray tell, do you go around assuming the worst case scenario for everything in life? I am sure that is not the case otherwise all Senior citizens would avoid fixed deposits like the plague and keep all their cash at home assuming that the banking system would collapse at any second.

Also, its not like all safe cars needs to be expensive BMW's but just to let you know/remind you we do have an instance of a Fiat linea that got into a head on crash with BMW and protected it's occupants on this very thread.

FIAT Linea and BMW head On Collision (Pics: Accidents in India)

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 14th October 2021 at 15:29. Reason: quoted post edited.
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Old 14th October 2021, 13:19   #33723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoneCollector View Post
Innova side swipe -
The incident happened at Dhaula Kuan grade separator. Even if they were in emergency, they just can't side swipe other vehicles and move on.
Looks like, the Innova driver just swayed too much to his right after overtaking/crossing the police van on the left. And in the process, didn't see the dumper truck coming in its path.
And the truck driver also missed the Innova completely due to the blind spot zone, inspite of the Innova's flashing lights.

In this case, the Innova driver seems to be at fault.
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Old 14th October 2021, 14:55   #33724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoneCollector View Post
Traffic rules are for all to follow. Doesn't matter if you are from the Police. Firstly they bully and side swipe the car with Dashcam while overtaking from left and then they try to bully the dump truck too.
The cops will still find a way to extort money from the truck driver and owner. Clearly police Innova is used to using 'Lal-batti' for reckless lane cutting.
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Old 14th October 2021, 15:26   #33725
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Note from Support:

Folks, purchase decisions and preferences hinge on a lot of factors.

You're free to attack, debate and counter a point of view, that's the whole point of debate.

However, please be mindful of staying civil while you do so, and DO NOT attack the person holding the opinion you disagree with. Violations of forum policies will attract moderator action.

Thanks!

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 14th October 2021 at 15:28.
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Old 14th October 2021, 15:58   #33726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Candy$Cars View Post
^
The above accident of the BMW and the celerio definitely shows that whether your running is on the highway or confined to City limits, a safe car is a must!
I have seen a lot of people justifying their purchases here on team-bhp by saying that the running is confined to city only.
We have a lots of serious accidents examples on this thread itself that happened within city limits simply because roads are filled with idiots and money doesn't give someone common sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Candy$Cars View Post
- I don't understand why fellow BHPians find my post to be ridiculing others or mocking others.
- No place did I mock anyone for their choice,
- all I wanted to do is point to people that they should give a higher weightage when buying new cars for city use because there are many examples on this thread itself of fatal accidents in city limits

I said that people try to justify their purchase by saying that their usage is limited to City limits - the thought which I was trying to correct.
- the reason is the choice of words, highlighed in bold in your initial post, quoted above.

must : implies mandatory
justifying their purchases : implies that they committed an offense with their wrong purchase

- You didn't mock anyone but with such sweeping use of words, you sort of mocked everyone falling in that category.
- Your intent is fine but the words above took it in a completely different direction sort of implying that you know better than them and they're wrong to not follow your advice which appears to be mandatory.
Hope you get the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Candy$Cars View Post
1. So, my premise is not incorrect.

2. Yes, this is a justification and not a reasoning.) and this gives rise to wrong thinking - something which I was trying to point out!

3.
a. i don't understand what part of my post gave you the impression that I was shaming people for their choices. - b. So, any type of advising or correcting people so that they can make better choices amounts to shaming?
1. As explained above your choice of words changed your premise, that's why it was incorrect. What you mentioned here is absolutely okay and I doubt anyone objects to it.

2. This again falls in the good intents but wrong choice of words.

3.
a. The response above has already explained that.
b. Absolutely not, that's what we do here.

I understand you are upset since your intent is in the right direction but choice of words, my friend, is the key and of course all this is IMHO

If I was writing that post, instead of "safety is a must" I would've used "importance of safety is ever more evident".
I would've skipped that "justifying" line altogether.

Last edited by Aditya : 17th October 2021 at 12:48. Reason: Quoted post edited; toning down
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Old 14th October 2021, 16:21   #33727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoneCollector View Post
Traffic rules are for all to follow. Doesn't matter if you are from the Police. Firstly they bully and side swipe the car with Dashcam while overtaking from left and then they try to bully the dump truck too. Net result - Instant Karma.

https://Youtu.be/LKBSCKbqAHk

I seriously wonder what was the Innova driver thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Benefit of the doubt: cops might have been on a genuine emergency, in which case traffic should should facilitate them getting through and give way. Of course, they might have just been late for dinner, but we can't make that judgement.

On the other side of the coin: even emergency-vehicle driver should drive safely.
Clearly the Cop vehicle driver drove like a insurance scammer trying to create a fake accident. Unless there is a Right-U Turn just in from the of the Dumper truck that the Innova had to take, there is no justification for what the cop car did. He could have gone a meter ahead of the truck and turned on his indicator in case he wanted to change lanes in from the the Dumper, but I dont see the point when there is hardly any room due to another truck in front.
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Old 14th October 2021, 16:31   #33728
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I don't really want to take this further off-topic, but, whatever the choice of words, I will reiterate what I have said many times (possibly thousands! see post count <blush> .

1. I call it a thin steel box when thinking about safety: we think we are safe inside, but, whether we are going luxury or low-end, there is a huge amount of illusion there.

2. The city-driving thing. Yes, people think they can be less careful, drive closer, brake later, not bother with seat belts, etc etc etc etc etc for city driving. But this close mishmash of vehicles is the very place for accidents.

If you hit a tree at 180kph, you will probably die. If you hit it at 30kph, you probably will not. But this is the extremes of the highway/city argument. And at 30kph you can still be seriously injured if you are not wearing a seatbelt.

That's it from me on this thread diversion
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Old 14th October 2021, 17:30   #33729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shancz View Post
must : implies mandatory
And that the buyers don't know it or are not aware of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shancz View Post
justifying their purchases : implies that they committed an offense with their wrong purchase
If not an offense, then certainly a mistake. A wrong premise.

Last edited by Aditya : 16th October 2021 at 05:25. Reason: Quoted post edited
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Old 14th October 2021, 18:48   #33730
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Not quoting anyone, But this is a Road Safety forum. Highlighting the road-worthiness of certain cars with regards to safety is not personal opinion.

Thankfully we are in a market where safety ratings are much more prominent now than they were years ago. So while we should never judge a persons buying preferences as our manufacturers never highlighted the safety aspect till date, ignoring ground realities is not what i expect the direction a knowledgeable forum to take.

Its sad that 0 star rated cars are still sold in India. Whatever your personal preference is we should always call out these cars because on our roads its people's lives that are at stake. So calling out and highlighting the drawbacks is the only way these manufacturers are going to take notice.

While i understand the logic of people upgrading from two wheelers. Remember that there are alternatives in EVERY segment. If your personal preferences push you to buy a low rated car its completely fine. But please dont come on a Safety forum and take everything personally when members point out faults with your preferred vehicles.

I hope we all can be on the same page on this. I own a Harrier which is an unrated car, Like most others in this segment. I always make it a point to highlight this fact every time someone asks me if its a good buy.

Last edited by Aditya : 17th October 2021 at 12:38. Reason: Toning down
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Old 14th October 2021, 22:04   #33731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluengel180 View Post
- Not quoting anyone, But this is a Road Safety forum. Highlighting the road-worthiness of certain cars with regards to safety is not personal opinion.
- Whatever your personal preference is we should always call out these cars
- But please dont come on a Safety forum and take everything personally when members point out faults with your preferred vehicles.
- If the car isn't road worthy it shouldn't be sold. Sadly GNCAP isn't mandatory like any other NCAP anywhere in the world so this argument will always be there.
I hope they do but sadly not the case.

- Absolutely agree and I don't think anyone would even think twice about calling out any issues of any car safety or otherwise. Issue happens when the calling out shifts to the buyers which IMO isn't right.

- Finding faults and hopefully solutions with vehicles is one of the things we do here but that discussion, IMO, shouldn't start blaming the buyers. But I could be wrong.

Since this thread is titled "Pics: Accidents in India", I will bow out and let's get back to the topic.

Apologies for the long posts digressing from the topic but IMO it was important to steer the discussion back to the cars instead of the buyers.

Last edited by Aditya : 17th October 2021 at 12:44. Reason: grammar
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Old 15th October 2021, 07:45   #33732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Candy$Cars View Post
I don't understand why fellow BHPians find my post to be ridiculing others or mocking others.
My friend, I did not say "You" ridiculed anyone. That's not how it was supposed to be read.

This can very easily become a "I will not sit in your car" because it is ranked at the bottom of the safety ratings. We don't want that do we?

Owning a car in India is still a luxury for most. When our last maid had told us that her son had bought a new car, she was almost in tears while saying it. It was hard for them to buy a car. It was one of those "tin-cans". I am not going to question or mock them about their choice. I knew they did not know anything about cars.

Changing people's mindset can come only from education. Educate them about vehicle safety ratings and also making sure they are taught how to drive. I cannot stress enough about the latter. If you get that sorted, you have safer drivers on the road and that equals to less risk taken and accidents. Both are lacking in our country. Sure, we now have driving schools from Maruti Suzuki, etc who do a slightly better job at putting skilled drivers on the road. That percentage is still low.
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Old 15th October 2021, 08:27   #33733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
Barring the absolute entry level cars such as the Alto, nearly every price bracket has safe cars and unsafe cars. The Tiago, for example, is a lot safer than the Celerio for comparable prices.
+1 to this. I find the argument ‘can’t afford a better rated car’ wrong in today’s market. Yes, there are many other reasons to choose the lesser rated cars like better ASC, reliability of engine etc and I totally buy that but thanks to TATA unaffordable safe(relatively) cars are a thing of past. Am talking about new car purchases here only(2018/19 onwards).

But then car purchases are big ticket & still a very emotional affair in India and hence people tend to have very strong opinions around it. All we can hope is safer car makers provide better reliability and service & similarly reliable carmakers start building safer cars. Till that happens, to each his/her own

Last edited by SoumenD : 15th October 2021 at 08:33.
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Old 15th October 2021, 11:01   #33734
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All this talk of safe cars is a little fatuous. We live in India. Everything in this country is life-threatening to a certain extent. From the air we breathe to the road on which as a pedestrian or cyclist you may just get run over by a car or truck, as you share the same piece of tarmac as them. Even if you buy the most safe car, you still may sometimes walk, and you cannot wear any armour then. And if you never walk or cycle, well that's life-threatening and life-denying in its own way.

Safety is the not the be all end all of everything. And ironically it's the people who buy big, safe SUVs to travel the country by road who suffer and cause the most accident damage, as they drive faster and greater distances, and are more likely to get smashed by some truck or drive into some pedestrian by mistake. If fewer people travelled by road, then wouldn't that make the world a safer place, definitely for the people whose villages have split up by national highways and who need to cross those roads for essential needs?

Safe car enthusiasts say that if a car is not safe, one ought not travel in it. Then why is not a parallel idea about roads: If the road is not safe, then one ought not travel on it. Yet people do not think twice about taking their large, "safe" SUV on unsafe roads. If we discourage the use of tin can cars for the sake of safety, shouldn't we also discourage the use of "tin can" roads for the sake of safety by the same token? Shouldn't we have threads in which we encourage members to prefer rail or air transport over going by road, as that is much safer?
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Old 16th October 2021, 01:13   #33735
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We helped a father and son who had an accident in their XUV300 on Leh Manali highway (near the turn towards Tsumdo).

Pics: Accidents in India-videocapture_20211016001548.jpg

Pics: Accidents in India-videocapture_20211016001733.jpg

I was recording a video because from far it didn't look like accident but a stuck car. Stopped as soon as I realized the situation. Didn't take any other pics as we were helping them. At first we thought we thought it was some off-roading gone wrong. The car was stuck in that position and right front tyre had burst. Even though the road is fully tarred and looks brand new it has lot of small bumps which can be dangerous at high speeds. We discussed this when we joined the highway from Tsumdo road and 5 mins after that we found this accident. The car supposedly flipped one or more times and ended up like this. There was a small curve just before this along with the uneven bumps and they must be in quite some speed. Surprisingly they both seemed ok although son looked in shock. The airbags were not deployed (i am not sure which variant this was and if it had any). The father told they weren't even wearing seat belts. I was just amazed and relieved they got out unscathed. There was body damage but car was still running. The right side door was also opening up only half. There appeared more damage on the right side. Considering the accident i thought XUV300 helped up pretty well if it flipped over.
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