[Miyata]

Originally Posted by paragsachania

large cans of what he calls "anti viral spray" that we use it 4 times a day to spray inside all our lifts. Not sure if this has helped but something better than nothing!

Could you find the name of that spray?

At our complex they have been allowing all paid-helps since the 4th May. For disinfecting various common areas such as the handrails; elevator touchpads; different handles; etc they were initially using Sodium Hypochlorite and/or bleach. However, some folks have observed corrosion/degradation of the materials that are being sanitized, particularly metal parts.

Although thermal screening is being done at the complex, I am not sure how useful it is - with majority being asymptomatic and the IR thermometers being quite inaccurate themselves, many host-carriers will be slipping through.

At homes we've established SOPs for any external paid-help - hand sanitizer at the door; mask up at the door; soap wash once inside; soap wash again at the end of the work.

At our home, at the moment we have only the cook coming in.

The sweeping/mopping person had called to say she will not turn up unless her salary is doubled! That'd be 5000-6000 for sweeping/mopping and dish-washing. She works at 5 apartments in the complex, all decided to let her go!

The nanny is still being kept away by most people in the complex.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Miyata

The sweeping/mopping person had called to say she will not turn up unless her salary is doubled!

Perhaps she needs the extra money to buy a smart phone and download the contact-tracing app! (sorry, I know that's not funny, but it's just a reaction to the state of things with so many regulations- central, state, RWA, etc.)

But on a serious note:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...cX3ln84cM.html

"Aarogya Setu app rule for private offices, not for domestic helps: Official"

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

Surge in Covid cases proves center wrong - pandemic response marked by theatrics not science

As summer heats up, cases are increasing. Hope India doesn't get the double whammy - poor production and an epidemic on hand.

Originally Posted by poloman

Now reality is dawning on the migrants. One more round of big movement back.
https://indianexpress.com/article/in...-back-6401013/

Workers were moving to their hometowns primarily for 2 reasons:
1) No daily wage to meet their living needs. Somewhat mitigated by food centers.
2) Propaganda on the effect of covid-19 (mobile ringtone bombardment, police beating those on roads, treating covid-19 cases with PPE-quarantine, social media news, death videos from Italy, etc). They feared certain death and wanted to die in their hometown among the people they knew. They didn't want to end up in mass graves at an unknown location in a city.

Originally Posted by poloman

The major problem I see with lockdown is return of license raj. The bureacrats and Police making money with ambiguous decision making. This has to stop.We may be able to overcome the economic consequences. But the license culture should not return in the name of safety.

This is real now. Every district has a separate rule, each at the discretion of district commissioner. What is allowed in one district is not allowed in the next district, both being in the same zone. It will be a nightmare to understand the restrictions & navigate the rules.

[luvDriving]

Well speaking of waste, I was talking with the local Sweet mart (Bikaner) owner yesterday. Even though the shop was open, it was mostly empty shelves as expected. He told me that they have had to throw away some 3 tempos full of raw material from his 2 shops.

Yesterday a majority of the shops were open at least till 2 pm. There was general social distancing in shops but not around vegetable sellers. There it was stand where you get space. A couple of policemen came on a two wheeler but went away without even a look at the vegetable market.

Barricades which were set up previously are now opened up somewhat. I could fill up petrol in my activa and my FIL's 2 wheeler. People are wearing masks in general. Contructions and roadside cementing activities are on in full swing.

There are some people roaming around in cars but the majority of the public is riding on 2 wheelers. So at least yesterday was close to normal in the day time. Police patrol cars come around 7pm and again around 10pm to chase people off the streets.

[m8002?]

I am still at a loss to understand this whole handling of the laborers.

They should have moved out at the beginning of the lockdown and move back when the restrictions are relaxed. We are doing the exact opposite. We forced them to remain at place ( without money and very little food ) and kept extending the lockdown. Now when its time to open, govt. arranges trains for them to leave? When will they come back? When will many small industries and construction which is dependent on them start?

Can someone explain how this works in the grand scheme of the government? Does it mean the govt. plans to keep extending this lockdown assuming things are great on the ground?

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by m8002?

I am still at a loss to understand this whole handling of the laborers.

They should have moved out at the beginning of the lockdown and move back when the restrictions are relaxed.

I agree. I think the govt dropped the ball on this. In March when the virus was not so well understood the govt panicked and announced a full lockdown. Of course, we say this now with the benefit of hindsight, so I don't totally blame the government on this.

Probably the best course of steps (again with the disclaimer that we are speaking with the benefit of hindsight) would have been in late March to cancel all regular trains, and run only Shramik specials for 10 days.

This would also have relieved the pressure in our cities of workers living in close quarters.

[AirbusCapt]

They tried to conduct a grand experiment and show the world how great India is and how much better we are than the rest of the world in handling a pandemic. The end result? A 50+ day of the world's "strictest" lockdown which destroyed our economy, a roaring increase in the number of active cases (expected to cross a lakh cases in the next 7 days) and most of the states having empty coffers.

[Nalin1]

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

They tried to conduct a grand experiment and show the world how great India is and how much better we are than the rest of the world in handling a pandemic. The end result? A 50+ day of the world's "strictest" lockdown which destroyed our economy, a roaring increase in the number of active cases (expected to cross a lakh cases in the next 7 days) and most of the states having empty coffers.

1. Pre-lockdown
2. Lockdown 1.0
3. Lockdown 2.0
4. Lockdown 3.0 (Partial lockdown)

During all these above times, number of cases have only gone in one direction- North

Still some people call the lockdown a stupendous success because without it, we would have had even more number of people infected.

I think a lockdown can only work (for a moment only looking at controlling the virus and not at the enormous side effects) if there is not a soul on the streets. Not even a single shop open, not a single activity allowed.

All of us know it is not possible. In our country where even just the essential activities can mean thousands of people on the streets and thousands of contacts among people, any surprise that the cases never decreased?

[MegaWhat]

Voted for 'yes'. But it's a very conditional 'yes' for me.

We messed up the implementation big time and for all the lockdowns:
1. A four hour window was just ridiculous.
2. We should have taken care of all the migrants and made provisions for their return home at the outset, or planned for their stay back in a much more comprehensive manner, BEFORE declaring a lockdown. It's just sad to see what they have been compelled to go through.
3. Should've setup multiple sources for good quality PPEs and test kits. I believe we got to it but it took some time. Just last week I've heard of cases where doctors working on COVID patients don't get reliable PPEs on a daily basis, there's some variation in quality or quantity on a day to day basis. More knowledgeable and aware members, please correct me if I'm wrong.
4. Better policing of the police. From spraying disinfectant on people to making up rules in their areas, we've seen it all. In Pune we've had cases where the district administration says something, but the police on the ground says something else. No 7am to 7pm shops in many areas simply because the policeman on ground does not allow it. No questions asked.
5. A track and audit of all the relief funds and tax money. It's hard to believe that the government is so short of cash, despite the levels of taxes we pay and the donations that many people been making in the current situation. Or maybe that's just me ranting.

Add to it the confusion between states and center, the mandatory installation of an app that's a privacy nightmare and no exit clause and the resurgence of licence Raj. I'm sure I've missed many more aspects.

And the worst thing is, despite the lockdown, the number of cases have been increasing. We've probably slowed it down considerably, but the lockdown was not an isolated solution. Other complimentary arrangements were needed to go with the lockdown.

But here's how I'm looking at it now. Despite the strict lockdown and such emergency powers, our country (the administration and the public) has found it difficult to manage the spread and impact of this virus. I only shudder to think what kind of (mis-) management and scale of spread and deaths we would have been subjected to if we did not even have the lockdown.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. We have lived almost two months in this lockdown and we've seen what works and what does not and what can go horribly wrong. It's relatively easy to judge the effectiveness after living through the lockdown. But we have not lived through a "no lockdown virus spread" period. I'm sure we would have different lessons through that experience and we as a country - the administration and the public - would have messed up certain aspects in that situation while being better at a few others.

The whole thing was an extremely "stuck between a rock and a hard place" situation. We were going to come out of it scraped and hurt. We can only wish that the management and execution would've been much better. For now, there's only hope that we can hang on to and plan as much as is possible with the information we have today.

[subraiyr]

Hi

I voted “NO”. I have always been vocal about the second lockdown. The first lockdown was fine as it was supposed to help set up infrastructure and processes to manage Covid pandemic.

The second lockdown did not have a clear agenda of management and exit behind it. It was probably done to manage the numbers. Unfortunately the crux of our liquid cash which is what drives economy sits with “we the people” and “we the MSME”. This hurt both. Minimal spending and minimal business output.

Secondly it attacked the labor class. I will call them the Indian labor rather than migrants. They were bereft of money and succour. For a second imagine your entire existence is questioned and what would you do. Reach out to your loved ones and friends. And this was something that the labor group missed out

Thirdly, we as a culture are gregarious. Now if you try and put a block on them guess what is going to happen. Physchological impact on people

Also, no one is talking about the increase in domestic abuse. With people at home, there has been an increase in domestic abuse. Extra work, no social communication and no vices and there is bound to be an increase in domestic violence

A lot of us are fine for it to continue as it did not affect us badly. We still have our homes, our food on the table and have various distractions to manage our mental health

And therefore I vote a resounding NO

[Lobogris]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Probably the best course of steps (again with the disclaimer that we are speaking with the benefit of hindsight) would have been in late March to cancel all regular trains, and run only Shramik specials for 10 days.

I agree with your point but why shut the trains? Why not give one week notice and let who ever wants to travel do so including workers? That way we don’t lose money on train fares and don’t resort to needless permits and permissions. The way the workers have been treated is abominable. They were basically incarcerated with no legal basis. They were not known covid patients but the government locked them in to “temporary shelters” with free food (in theory). How is that different from a jail? By what law did we take away their freedom?

A lockdown can’t work in developing countries. It must be a last resort and not the first response. At least 30% of the country lives in squalid and cramped conditions with many without even toilets and running water. How can we expect them to have social distancing? Then we have an ever expanding list of essential services where another 30 to 40% would be exempted. So that leaves only about 30% who could be locked down. Many of these would defy it and in any case they would have to step out for essential needs. This leads to at best a 25% lock down. Is there any surprise then why the cases keep rising despite a lockdown? All we can do and all we should have done is close down some high risk areas and let everything else function with safeguards like we are trying to do now. Then we would have had the full lockdown as a weapon up our sleeve to be used in certain parts as a last resort. We should have spent our resources on educating people on how to minimise their exposure and in procuring medical equipment without spreading needless panic.

[TwinAlco]

Originally Posted by subraiyr

The second lockdown did not have a clear agenda of management and exit behind it. It was probably done to manage the numbers. Unfortunately the crux of our liquid cash which is what drives economy sits with “we the people” and “we the MSME”. This hurt both. Minimal spending and minimal business output.

A lot of us are fine for it to continue as it did not affect us badly. We still have our homes, our food on the table and have various distractions to manage our mental health

And therefore I vote a resounding NO

Hello everyone this is my first post on TeamBhP!

The first lockdown was a bold move even though announced in haste.

The second lockdown was announced just before the first lockdown ended. There was no graded plan or thought process shared on what are timelines. I guess the government simply believed locking people down would curb the virus when it was evident after the first lockdown the cases are not decreasing.

However the first lockdown should have ironed out communications and coordination. Now we are complete loss on what to do. Repeating the same mistakes again and again. There have been about 4500 circulars,clarifications, clarifications on clarification. No one knows what is happening.

Lets take 3 examples. It was clear unannounced lockdowns are causing people to panic, still TN announced a sudden lockdown within the lockdown and has led to the Koyambedu cluster which has caused over 1500 cases.

Ahmedabad repeated the same mistake by again locking down for a week even after the Chennai example backfired miserably.

The amount of hardships the labour class is facing is tremendous. The hopelessness that they are even ready to walk 1000s of kms in this heat, some even disabled is mind boggling. I only fear if this frustration is tapped by wrong elements it can lead to widespread arson and anarchy which a tired police force may not be ae to curb. We as a nation have let down this important tax paying class and are even charging them fares to go back! This is when we ran free airplanes to bring back people from Wuhan and Iran before the lockdown.

The last example is the mishandling of starting of Rajdhani trains which was announced late Sunday night. Now after all announcement and train timings states like TN and Telangana have requested to not run trains. Are even CMs not being communicated the decisions of the center before hand? Does it take 50 days to just iron out our center state relations in times of these serious pandemic! This is really a shocking state of affairs.

I guess now hope is slipping at a rapid pace and things will slip back to the US, Italy scenario. The oft repeated statements that at least we are doing better than these countries will rapidly lose relevance.

Not speaking with benefit of hindsight but even now if the lockdown can be lifted and reinforced in a preannounced date to ensure everyone is safe at their places it has to be reinforced with an iron hand with no movement whatsoever we can still make some headway and cap the number of cases. What we should have done in March can still be done now before we slip away to more pandemonium.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

In March when the virus was not so well understood the govt panicked and announced a full lockdown.

Not really. In early March, China was coming out of a lockdown, cases were rising exponentially in Italy. WHO had issued a global health emergency. The impact of the virus was well known. Since the passengers from China were quarantined, our Govt was complacent and was conducting assemblies, the public was free to conduct international conferences, folks were flying in from non-China without any screening. The lockdown was placed when the number of confirmed positive coronavirus cases in India was approximately 500. That is a very early stage.

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Probably the best course of steps (again with the disclaimer that we are speaking with the benefit of hindsight) would have been in late March to cancel all regular trains, and run only Shramik specials for 10 days.

Why ban trains? Did the virus originate in a crowded place in our country? How will the virus spread in a train, when it doesn't leave Indian borders?

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Of course, we say this now with the benefit of hindsight, so I don't totally blame the government on this.

A simple mechanism would have saved from the current predicament. As soon as the cases were rising in non-China locations, all arrival air passengers both international & domestic must have been strictly quarantined for 14 days. Even domestic flights since planes & crew fly both international & domestic routes on the same day. PPE must have been made compulsory for crew & airline staff.

This would have completely sealed off the entry of the virus into the country. Though domestic air travel would have been affected, trains & buses would be still plying within the country.

Though I would give Govt the benefit of doubt, I think there must be a Govt department, with staff, to look at such problems & suggest the course of action.

Originally Posted by m8002?

Can someone explain how this works in the grand scheme of the government?

There have been reports that Govt has been setting up expert committees and ignoring their advice. Different agencies are involved in covid-19 handling. Initially, all directions were form PMO, then ICMR, for some days it was Health Ministry, now MHA. All the while state Govts, district commissioners were free to decide deemed best.

[ABHI_1512]

Originally Posted by msdivy

Not really. In early March, China was coming out of a lockdown, cases were rising exponentially in Italy. WHO had issued a global health emergency.

Absolutely spot on, in fact Kerala got its first COVID positive person back in Jan 28/29 and they immediately started to screen passengers at the four international airports they have. Till March 15, it was told that we have enough PPE kits and ventilators and that there is nothing to worry and what not and then boom came the lockdown. If we as a common man can think of some practical solutions then what stopped the authorities sitting with all the data and inside information from making practical decisions is anybody’s guess! The entire February should have been used for preparation for the pandemic but instead we went for the jugular and wasted precious time. And now after 50 days of lockdown and we are like sitting ducks. The migrant workers got the initial brunt and now when the economy is going up in smoke and job losses and pay cuts imminent, the middle class will face the brunt of this lockdown. The worst part is that now panic has taken over the initial shock of the pandemic and that’s really alarming.

[Kumar R]

Unfortunately the disease is seen as a law-and-order problem instead of a public health problem. I see decisions taken with no preparation, no commonsense and no compassion or sensitivity for people.

I could write for hours, instead some of my beliefs are as follows:

- After taking no action for months the PM announced a lockdown at 8.30pm in the night in the last week of a month. Nobody had time to prepare, stock up, make arrangements, collect salaries.

- 53% of our workforce is unorganised, with half getting paid weekly sometimes daily. Most of the poorer migrant workers live in appalling conditions in rooms not built for more than a few hours continuous stay, let along two months of lockdown. Most of them have little job security and are not entitled to pay if they is no work (whatever the cause);

- Elderly people like my parents who are totally dependent on domestic help are pretty much stranded high and dry - unlike in the Western countries where older people are used to living independently more, have automated life, can manage isolation better because they are used to it more, relative to us.

- Pretty much all OPDs in all hospitals were closed and private nursing homes and hospitals have pretty much shut down. There were no medical facilities, practically all surgery had to be deferred. Now I hear even entire hospitals are being sealed-off. What happens to people who need medical help? I remember how difficult it was getting my father admitted even when there was no lockdown, it's just luck that nothing has happened to him in this period.

- For all the talk about continuation of essential supplies I can attest to the fact that the first week was extremely hard with no milk, eggs, bread, butter, maggi in my "posh" neighbourhood in New Delhi. In Kolkata for the first two weeks even pharmacies were closed because staff were not allowed to travel from home by over-eager police. Old people suffered a great deal of anxiety and stress when their medicines (often specialized medicines) were not available - at that age stress is an equally effective life-shortener.

- Have there been any randomised trials to see how meaningful this lockdown has been? Did the first 21 days deliver any result? I am still waiting to hear scientific inference on this.

- Does it make sense for regions in the country with disparate affliction with Covid to suffer a lockdown in equal measure? Goa has double-digit cases whereas Delhi has 7,000 - should they be treated in the same way? Even China with it's total lack of civil liberty never had such a repressive national lockdown (Wuhan was sealed for 76 days).

- I would like to have some information on the measures - what new infrastructure has been created, how is the research on a vaccine going, which entities are being supported and funded for vaccine and medical research, what plans for a post-lockdown India have been prepared, what strategies have been made, whether more medical staff have been recruited.

- What will the authorities do if the number of cases keep rising? Will we have another lockdown? What are the thoughts, plan and formulas for dealing with he disease on a sustained basis.

All I see around me is an eagerness to use police force, threat of fines and jails, rising vigilantism, irresponsible promotion of apps, and most recently the abdication of lawmaking by removing application of labour law in the name of attracting investment (ironically hurting the segment who suffer the most). Unfortunately for a large section of the salaried middle class or those with savings, this lockdown has come as a pleasant, paid vacation in the middle of a hot summer when nothing is better than lounging around in PJs all day, browsing the internet, ordering food online and chatting with friends. I bet plenty will be unhappy to see the lockdown eased.

I am not aware of any western country that has cracked down on their own people in such a harsh and arbitrary way or with such shambolic planning. Meanwhile in India the lockdown continues to be an end in itself - no doubt an achievement rivaling the invention of the zero