[mempheS.D]

Originally Posted by Aroy

It is a choice between excitement and peace of mind.

Well concluded, Aroy.

Personally, I prefer excitement. What's irritating is when 'loss' of peace of mind creeps IN BETWEEN excitement.
I guess we've all broken this down into simpler digestable pieces for you now, pars211.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by mempheS.D

Well concluded, Aroy.

Personally, I prefer excitement. What's irritating is when 'loss' of peace of mind creeps IN BETWEEN excitement.
I guess we've all broken this down into simpler digestable pieces for you now, pars211.

As they say, excitement with peace of mind is no excitement, it is mundane!

[mempheS.D]

Originally Posted by Aroy

As they say, excitement with peace of mind is no excitement, it is mundane!

Whoever said that, probably never dreamt in his/her wildest of dreams that M&M would make and release onto the roads for the public SUVs with doors that can barely be shut or grinding brake shoes which add extra hymn to the rhythm of the ICE. The author of that statement may want to rephrase that after some pedal-to-metal in the XUV after reading through the niggles thread.

[Dieseling]

Originally Posted by paras211

I ve test driven the Xuv. The Innova I ve been in and driven several times.
===========
Are the seats the same as the fronts with an armrest ?

So Paras, what have you decided? XUV (if you get lucky in lottery) or Innova?

[samm]

Just adding some fuel to fire -
Tossing between a used Fortuner and XUV. Went and saw XUV -didnt drive- to check out quality. Saw some door locks not working in display model. The plastic arch from wheel arches comes out on two cars parked outside. Pretty flimsy feel. Interiors better than any othe M&M, but not very confidence inspiring over a long run.
Price 14L for base.

Saw TFort used one, 60K kms done. Flawless condition (except tyres), solid build, but no gizmos. But has a reassuring feel.
Price 18-20L for a 3 yr old car.

Sorry, not hijacking the thread, just shared some info. We are also trying to finalize whether to buy XUV or not!

[hkollar]

Originally Posted by Dieseling

So Paras, what have you decided? XUV (if you get lucky in lottery) or Innova?

Hadn't seen this thread till now.

I own a first batch (2005) innova, and its been trouble free till now (67K km). Not even once it gave even slightest of niggle. Periodic service (every 6 months) and a tyre change at 35K is all I did.

I have driven Scorpio & Xylo. I was extremely dissatisfied with the drive, though they were more powerful. I was also dismayed at the lack of fit & finish.

All those who thought XUV500 is a good idea because of its looks would do well to remember, Looks are unimportant in a long term relationship. You marry someone with whom you can live trouble free for long. If you marry someone for looks, knowing there could be some trouble - after some 2-3 years you'll regret it.

Unless ofcourse, you intend to divorce your vehicle within 3-4 years.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by hkollar

I was also dismayed at the lack of fit & finish.

If you marry someone for looks, knowing there could be some trouble - after some 2-3 years you'll regret it.

It is not necessary that if the fit & finish is bad, the vehicle has to be troublesome.

[hkollar]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

It is not necessary that if the fit & finish is bad, the vehicle has to be troublesome.

That depends on what you consider troublesome.

For someone like me a rattling plastics, or glove compartment is troublesome. One of the things I always hated about Maruti products - rattling after 3-4 yrs.

I also think reliability is about how many times you have to go to Service station for anything other than periodic service. A friend bought XUV and has visited service station twice already to rectify problems with electronics.

I don't buy a vehicle to spend my time at repair shop - Did that with a Tata Indica in 2000, averaged 4 repairs a year, sold the car in 4th year, swore never to buy a tata product again.

Mahindra is better, but no where close to Innova. Innova engine won't give you trouble for 300,000km.

[Buffetfan]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

It is not necessary that if the fit & finish is bad, the vehicle has to be troublesome.

Fit and finish epitomize quality philosophy. If the company does not even bother to finish and fit even the visible parts, imagine the general tolerance and fit / finish of the invisible parts like engine, crankshaft etc.

Note that by fit and finish I dont mean "expensive". Even an Alto has excellent alignment of all the parts it comes with.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by Buffetfan

Fit and finish epitomize quality philosophy. If the company does not even bother to finish and fit even the visible parts, imagine the general tolerance and fit / finish of the invisible parts like engine, crankshaft etc.

Note that by fit and finish I dont mean "expensive". Even an Alto has excellent alignment of all the parts it comes with.

It is well known and accepted that the Japanese are the best, in the world when it comes to implementing quality standards, however, M&M's core components across its products are known to be reliable too.

What is lacking in the XUV is, finer tolerances for a few trim parts and reliable gizmos which use Mechantronics. There have been ZERO engine/gearbox/clutch/chassis etc failures on the XUV.

Should these happen in a car launched in 2012? No.
But does that mean that M&M is not "bothered" about it? I disagree.

[Buffetfan]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

It is well known and accepted that the Japanese are the best, in the world when it comes to implementing quality standards, however, M&M's core components across its products are known to be reliable too.

What is lacking in the XUV is, finer tolerances for a few trim parts and reliable gizmos which use Mechantronics. There have been ZERO engine/gearbox/clutch/chassis etc failures on the XUV.

Should these happen in a car launched in 2012? No.
But does that mean that M&M is not "bothered" about it? I disagree.

I do not mean to say M&M is not bothered about these.

Taking forward my argument on the Quality philosophy, I am just posting a few threads below : How many such niggles posts do we find for Innova? and it sells more than Scorpio Plus XUV5OO combined - which means proportionately higher opportunities for defects. Talking of engine/clutch/gearbox reliability, even that Maruti 800 has an extremely reliable engine but it costs nearly 15% of what the XUV5OO costs. So after paying 7 times that price, really, our expectations from the vehicle would go beyond engine reliability.


http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...solutions.html

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...solutions.html

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...t=xylo+niggles
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...t=xylo+niggles

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by Buffetfan

Fit and finish epitomize quality philosophy. If the company does not even bother to finish and fit even the visible parts, imagine the general tolerance and fit / finish of the invisible parts like engine, crankshaft etc.

Note that by fit and finish I dont mean "expensive". Even an Alto has excellent alignment of all the parts it comes with.

I dont really agree to that.

I have used many Mahindras over the past many years and some have clocked 2 Lac kms. If a Mahindra is maintained well, that is, timely general services, the vehicle rarely gives an issue.

Fit & finish & reliablity of the car has a whole are two different things. A Scorpio may rattle but we have not heard many cases of Scorpios breaking down.

Originally Posted by n.devdath

It is well known and accepted that the Japanese are the best, in the world when it comes to implementing quality standards, however, M&M's core components across its products are known to be reliable too.

+100.

Originally Posted by Buffetfan

How many such niggles posts do we find for Innova? and it sells more than Scorpio Plus XUV5OO combined - which means proportionately higher opportunities for defects.

It is but obvious that the Innova is more reliable than the XUV5OO. But both are meant for different set of customers. I find the Innova to be a featureless, boring, dated & utterly expensive mini van. I find the XUV to be very much VFM & I would surely buy the XUV over the Innova. Its simple, I want some oomph in my car. The XUV is for those who want much more from their car than just the basics and most of them are ready to deal with small niggles, if M&M supports them.

Talking of engine/clutch/gearbox reliability, even that Maruti 800 has an extremely reliable engine but it costs nearly 15% of what the XUV5OO costs. So after paying 7 times that price, really, our expectations from the vehicle would go beyond engine reliability.

Comparing the XUV to the 800? The XUV is more expensive because it is much bigger, seats more, has a bigger engine, etc.

It is not rocket science that you do have to pay more for a bigger car. Else, why is the Ertiga priced more than the Swift?

Lets face it. Innova sells the way it is selling now because there are a lot of Toyota fans around who go ga ga over any product they launch. Most of them are expensive & are overrated. I dont find any of the Toyota's products VFM. But that is just my opinion about them.

[searchingheaven]

Originally Posted by samm

The plastic arch from wheel arches comes out on two cars parked outside. Pretty flimsy feel. Interiors better than any othe M&M, but not very confidence inspiring over a long run.

Saw TFort used one, 60K kms done. Flawless condition (except tyres), solid build, but no gizmos. But has a reassuring feel.
Price 18-20L for a 3 yr old car.

Are you sure that it was 18-20 L?I mean, with this price for a 3 year old car, Toyota's depreciate really well. A salaried professional won't care about gizmos more than peace of mind. He cannot afford to take out time from his already hectic schedule to look at all of the issues that are cropping up XUV500.

Originally Posted by Buffetfan

Ft and finish epitomize quality philosophy. If the company does not even bother to finish and fit even the visible parts, imagine the general tolerance and fit / finish of the invisible parts like engine, crankshaft etc.

Note that by fit and finish I dont mean "expensive". Even an Alto has excellent alignment of all the parts it comes with.

+1 to that sir. very well said. This is exacly what happens when a companny tries to stuff VFM in its cars.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by Buffetfan

I do not mean to say M&M is not bothered about these.

Taking forward my argument on the Quality philosophy, I am just posting a few threads below : How many such niggles posts do we find for Innova? and it sells more than Scorpio Plus XUV5OO combined - which means proportionately higher opportunities for defects.

I used the word "bothered" because that I quoted you verbatim on the word. Also, I know that reliability doesn't relate to cost.

The Bolero, an M&M product is known to be bullet proof, in its bare bones DI version which costs 40% of what the XUV does.

Let me reiterate. There is a difference between reliability and niggles. Reliability is the ability of the vehicle to get you home, every time and not break down on the road whereas niggles are features that do not work, all the time.
Does the XUV have niggles? Yes.
Is it unreliable? No.

Period, from my side.

[samm]

Originally Posted by searchingheaven

Are you sure that it was 18-20 L?I mean, with this price for a 3 year old car, Toyota's depreciate really well.

Yes, it was in that range. Further, we found another TFort for 19L. This was also 3 years old (3.5 yrs to be exact). Excellent condition, again 60K km done.

He had bought it for around 23L it seems. We went through a close contact, so it might come for 18L or so. But with the new one at 26+ Lac, not sure if he will agree to the lower number.