[BlackPearl]

Originally Posted by Sheel

Hills are barely 150 kilometers from where I stay and on most weekends, I do go there, so if I had to choose between a FWD and a RWD, I will prefer a FWD. This weekend I was here and any RWD couldn't climb the ramp if coming from the opposite direction, believe me.

This might be off topic in this thread but wanted to know the logic/physics behind it. I had the understanding that RWDs are better in the hills, hence the Boleros, Sumos and Maruti vans rule there. Specially under heavy loads on inclines, the weight gets shifted to the rear, hence providing more traction to the rear wheels. It might be a problem for RWDs when there is no load at the back and the FWDs have the advantage of the heavy engine sitting on top of the driving wheels, thus providing more traction. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

[asit.kulkarni93]

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

This might be off topic in this thread but wanted to know the logic/physics behind it. I had the understanding that RWDs are better in the hills, hence the Boleros, Sumos and Maruti vans rule there. Specially under heavy loads on inclines, the weight gets shifted to the rear, hence providing more traction to the rear wheels. It might be a problem for RWDs when there is no load at the back and the FWDs have the advantage of the heavy engine sitting on top of the driving wheels, thus providing more traction. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

What you have stated is absolutely right. Last year during a family get together at a resort near Pune, I witnessed the difference in how a RWD vehicle shines in the hills.

The resort was located on hill top with 2 hair pin bends a step incline. We had a XUV5OO W6 FWD and an Innova 2.5. Both the car's were fully loaded and the incline had more than normal gravel. Interestingly the fully loaded Innova reached the resort without any drama, At the same time the XUV had a few wheel spins at both the hair pin bends and the incline. These are bigger powerful cars, I have seen this difference even in my Nano and Estilo/Wagon-R. A RWD in the hills is pure bliss especially when loaded.

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

This might be off topic in this thread but wanted to know the logic/physics behind it. I had the understanding that RWDs are better in the hills, hence the Boleros, Sumos and Maruti vans rule there.

They rule until you come across a steep incline [bonnet visible kinds] and then you have to steer, those places when you turn, the first half of any RWD vehicle goes, post that, it starts to spin its wheels.

I saw it here and I saw it very recently here [sits just below the MG road, hiking from here to MG road is fun if you are fit] You can't enter its parking without smoking your rear wheels. Taxi Altos, my Scorpio [4H], had no issues, but the Scorpio [VLX, 2WD] ahead of me had a nightmare.

I myself don't know the physics behind it and leaving out Omnis, I feel a FWD is a safer bet than a RWD [no AWD or 4WD].

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

I had the understanding that RWDs are better in the hills,

Originally Posted by Sheel

I myself don't know the physics behind it and leaving out Omnis, I feel a FWD is a safer bet than a RWD

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ed-reason.html

Sumos and Boleros rule the hills because they are "rugged". Not because of traction.

[JediKnight]

Originally Posted by smartcat

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ed-reason.html

Sumos and Boleros rule the hills because they are "rugged". Not because of traction.

I have fair bit of experience piloting a Bolero DI in the Himalayas. It is just not the ruggedness. It is also about the low end grunt of a large displacement diesel. It is a champion slope climber. Another vehicle that stands out in slope climbing is the now discontinued Sumo Spacio with the same engine as the Tata 407. The low end grunt of the engine is unbelievable. 7 people and luggage. Steep slope. Child's play for this vehicle.

[VKumar]

Originally Posted by Sheel

This weekend I was here and any RWD couldn't climb the ramp if coming from the opposite direction, believe me.

That's not the fault of the car, that's the fault of the driver who is first taking it wrong way and then applying wrong technique.

Any car which has a solid rear axle coupled to a hard anti sway bar, or any car which has low rear wheel articulation and has an open differential (or the LSD that Tata offers - that's as useless as open diff); will always face wheelspin while taking turns while climbing.

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

I had the understanding that RWDs are better in the hills

One thing for sure, if you are going uphill on a straight section and have a loose surface - then RWDs always shine; FWD's depend on the engine weight mainly for their traction, but when they try to negotiate a steep incline, then the longitudinal load transfer removes a lot of weight advantage from the front and accelerating makes it further worse - add loose surface and the FWD starts to struggle.

But, if I have to take a hairpin while going uphill with loose surface; then an RWD with a rear diff lock or proper LSD is way way better than an FWD. But if the RWD has open diff, then FWD will be my choice. In other words, my choice will be:
1) AWD or 4x4
2) RWD + Diff lock or LSD (Not Tata LSD)
3) RWD + Huge wheel articulation (Read V Cross)
4) FWD
5) RWD + low to medium rear wheel articulation (Read Crysta, Hexa, Scorpio, Safari etc)

Originally Posted by asit.kulkarni93

Interestingly the fully loaded Innova reached the resort without any drama, At the same time the XUV had a few wheel spins at both the hair pin bends and the incline.

Two reasons there:
1) Easier launch in Innova - the 2.5 has way better low end
2) High torque and poor low end of XUV coupled to that punchy clutch. XUV will either get bogged down or will transfer entire 320 Nm or you will burn your clutch; no third option - same applies to hexa any ways

Originally Posted by Sheel

They rule until you come across a steep incline [bonnet visible kinds] and then you have to steer, those places when you turn, the first half of any RWD vehicle goes, post that, it starts to spin its wheels.

That's the sole reason I got MLD fitted in my cousin's TUV and then took it to Nelong valley; the route was touch but was a cake walk for the TUV with MLD; I took many steep hairpins and there was nothing called road - only gravel and mud. The Innova ahead of me was struggling, even reversed back on two hairpins and then moved ahead with momentum taking the outer periphery of the hairpin (inner periphery is super steep on hairpins), while I was simply driving waiting for the slight jerk for the MLD to get engaged, once it gets engaged, the hairpin is a cakewalk - no FWD can match it. I guess nothing satisfies the condition of turn + incline better than a loose surfaced hairpin.

Below given are the hairpins I am talking about:

Originally Posted by smartcat

Sumos and Boleros rule the hills because they are "rugged". Not because of traction.

Originally Posted by JediKnight

The low end grunt of the engine is unbelievable. 7 people and luggage. Steep slope. Child's play for this vehicle.

Nothing beats a Scorpio on the hills, Thar 2.6 is close, nothing else. Bolero and Spacio have only low end (Though local drivers on the Gangotri, Badrinath etc routes dod rive the Spacio at unbelievable pace) but it's the Scorpio 2.2 with it's short gearing and the Thar with the low end of 2.6 are just unbeatable if one has to take the hilly route and wants the all rounder performance (Only if you ignore the bumpiness of the Thar).


Now, before anyone comes up to tell me how the Hexa has an LSD and what a magical instrument an LSD is, please refer this video recorded by .Anshuman (I suggest everyone watch it, this is a very very nice and knowledgable video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLEFerXnJQI

And this video of Hexa XTA LSD made by me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqsnaMRx_TA

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

I have fair bit of experience piloting a Bolero DI in the Himalayas. It is just not the ruggedness. It is also about the low end grunt of a large displacement diesel. It is a champion slope climber. Another vehicle that stands out in slope climbing is the now discontinued Sumo Spacio with the same engine as the Tata 407. The low end grunt of the engine is unbelievable. 7 people and luggage. Steep slope. Child's play for this vehicle.

Having experienced the low end grunt of an old Mahindra recently, yeah, what you say makes sense. But how will Bolero DI or Sumo Spacio perform under similar conditions (gradient, mix of tarmac & kutcha road) if there are just 2 people & no luggage in the vehicle? It won't be able to put all that torque down to the road right?

[roby_dk]

VK can you please elaborate a bit more on Hexa's 4x4 vs XTA vs what we get in Fortuner and Endeavour. I assume Hexa XTA will not be able to get out from the above situation. Is it the same for Hexa 4x4. It seems the differential lock is mandatory for off road trails.

[BlackPearl]

I agree to everything you have said except the below.

Originally Posted by VKumar

Nothing beats a Scorpio on the hills, Thar 2.6 is close, nothing else. Bolero and Spacio have only low end (Though local drivers on the Gangotri, Badrinath etc routes dod rive the Spacio at unbelievable pace) but it's the Scorpio 2.2 with it's short gearing and the Thar with the low end of 2.6 are just unbeatable if one has to take the hilly route and wants the all rounder performance (Only if you ignore the bumpiness of the Thar).

I have driven the Scorpio in the hills and I am sorry that I can't agree that nothing beats it. The Bolero is far better than either the Scorpio or the Thar in the hills. But as an all rounder, the Scorpio is a better vehicle than the Bolero, because the Bolero is a pain on the highways. If 90% of my drive were in the hills, I would prefer a Bolero any day over the Scorpio or the Thar.

[knrn]

Hi there

I have been following this thread for quite some time and since I just joined team bhp, I can post. Yippee.

A short introduction.
I presently own a santro and am planning to upgrade to an suv/ muv. So I have taken test drives of all cars mentioned here either from showrooms or owned by friends.
In order of my preference and the sequence of test drives, to eliminate bias. Only manuals as I am a fan of those.

The Tata safari-

Exterior- It is one of the most handsome suvs on the move. That timeless shape has you hooked since we have all grown up seeing one of those. Very akin the Eleanor 1967 Mustang driven in the movie "Gone in 60 seconds". But just like Eleanor it's old school. Sure to have its own following and dislikes. Surely the headlights and bumper and grill have been revised but still old.

Interior- much better than when it was long but still leaves a lot to be desired.

Drive- not very enthusiastic but doesn't feel underpowered.

Ride and handling- wallowy on curves due to a tall CoG, stable on highways.

Verdict- would have been the de facto choice but it is 5 years too late.

Door- tudd

The Mahindra Scorpio:

Exterior- the new Scorpio with those headlights, grille and revised air dam looks smart and intimidating. Retains the same boxy shape. Lost on the rear.

Interior- better than the previous gen and thanks to part sharing from elder brother the XUV5OO but rattles and squeaks.

Drive- good engine, great low end. The S11 is sure to capture your heart.

Ride and handling- a bit sorted but still wallowy, even on road undulations.

Verdict- if on a budget, look no further. S11 is jaw dropping but then it knocks on the doors of XUV5OO.


Tata Hexa:

Exterior- A welcome change. Pleasing and modern. The headlights are spot on and the grille is so detailed. But reminds one of the Aria. Good but not handsome.

Interior- sophistication with subtlety. The ICE will blow you away.

Drive- adequate with enough power on tap but will leave you with the desire for more once on the highway.

Ride and handling- tank like on the highway and a comparatively silent cabin.

Verdict- excellent VFM and will satisfy you if you do not know the competition.

Door-dudd


The XUV5OO:

Exterior- the second most handsome among the lot. Looks have been made subtle in the new avatar and pleasing. I even liked the tail lights.

Interior- much much better than the previous model although the occasional squeak is still there. ICE arkamys tuned speakers good but not that great. Feels more reliable than the previous version.

Drive- will always bring a smile to your face as all the horses and nms are at the command of your right foot. It catches you by surprise in the city traffic and you have to be careful. And that wonderful 6th gear will bring you very close to bliss. All good but that clutch.

Ride and handling- great for a car this size. Not wallowy and planted on straights. That flyover expansion joint makes its presence felt and so do the undulations. Once on the move- it will leave everything in its dust.

Verdict- all the bells and whistles available this side of 20 lacs. Though niggles abound with the previous models but the SA told me that all those have been taken care of. I would put my money on this but I would rather wait for the long term reports. And if the niggles have been truly sorted out then this is the choice.
Door- dudd

The Mighty Toyota Innova Crysta 2.4:

Disclaimer- I am a big fan of this one so drove it in the last but I am still biased towards it.

Exterior- the new shape is welcome. Though still mpvish but pleasing and not overdone. Loved those pilot lamps and headlights.

Interior- supremely comfortable. Nice materials. Give you that premium feel. I loved the new dash. Although the ICE leaves a lot to be desired but is tolerable.

Drive- In the city in eco mode, the drive is so relaxing. It doesn't allow the engine to jump on you and will even cruise comfortably with a loaded family. Yes, that clutch is heavy. Power mode- you will even smile after the drive at home. I did not find the steering that heavy.

Ride- stable and least wallowy.

Verdict-my choice. If you can afford, buy it or get an xuv w7 and an etios for the difference which seems more logical.
Door- thud.
Thank you.
Gosh I am so excited that I am up posting at 3 in the night.

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by VKumar

Nothing beats a Scorpio on the hills, Thar 2.6 is close, nothing else.

After having lived with one for sometime and also taking it to some bad bad places (including Nelong ), I absolutely abhor the turbo lag of the 2.2. You always have to keep it between the 1500-2000 band to get the best out of it.

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

I have driven the Scorpio in the hills and I am sorry that I can't agree that nothing beats it. The Bolero is far better than either the Scorpio or the Thar in the hills. But as an all rounder, the Scorpio is a better vehicle than the Bolero, because the Bolero is a pain on the highways. If 90% of my drive were in the hills, I would prefer a Bolero any day over the Scorpio or the Thar.

Agree

[JediKnight]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Having experienced the low end grunt of an old Mahindra recently, yeah, what you say makes sense. But how will Bolero DI or Sumo Spacio perform under similar conditions (gradient, mix of tarmac & kutcha road) if there are just 2 people & no luggage in the vehicle? It won't be able to put all that torque down to the road right?

The Bolero DI actually shines in this kind of environment. I have driven solo, no problem. You have to remember this is heavy car even when unladen. As regards Spacio i don't have much driving experience on it. One cabbie i talked in Himachal said that the car jumped like a "Kangaroo" ( his word ) if unladen due to "big engine" ( again his word ).

[caramit]

Thank God, i chanced upon this thread. Finally!

I am a Toyota Innova user for 10 years and NGT has forced me to look at AT versions of XUV W11, Crysta Z, and Hexa XTA as a replacement. The thread is simply incredible.

Currently my shortlist in this segment are Hexa XTA and Innova Crysta, and in that order. Being a Toyota lover, happy Innova owner for 10 years and having a Corolla Altis as well asthome, thats a lot to concede.
I am surprised the votes for Hexa have not translated into numbers in monthly sales.

no ABS-ESP, and no driver seat electric adjustment are the ONLY two factors at this moment that i find lacking in Hexa. I hope I am able to take a decision and buy one soon.

My search process:

Test drives, this site, friends, internet, stopping passer by in their cars and seeking feedback.

My search made me traverse across segments. The only other car I have found worth its salt is Skoda Kodiaq. If I had the money, I would have bought it. For now it is Hexa.

[VKumar]

Originally Posted by roby_dk

VK can you please elaborate a bit more on Hexa's 4x4 vs XTA vs what we get in Fortuner and Endeavour.

Let's not go there man, it's like comparing apple to pineapple just because 'apple' is common in both. There is a huge difference, both the latter cars can get you out of most of the situations while the former is the one which will try hard not to get you into the situation - huge difference.

I assume Hexa XTA will not be able to get out from the above situation. Is it the same for Hexa 4x4. It seems the differential lock is mandatory for off road trails.

With Hexa, momentum plays more important role than anything (in the 4x4 the role of momentum decreases a bit) like in any other 4x2, rest a proper diff lock is a diff lock; at times no electronics also can replace a simple piece of some honest mechanicals.

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

I have driven the Scorpio in the hills and I am sorry that I can't agree that nothing beats it. The Bolero is far better than either the Scorpio or the Thar in the hills.

I won't question your word man, your experience with those cars is probably of higher number of kilometers than the number of hours I have lived till date (no days or months or years, the number of hours since I took birth).

My experience with Scorpio has been good, the shorter gears felt very good on hills and the only Mahindra car I have driven with a DI engine was Armada; that too never on hills - that said, we new age kids are devoid of many old school but sweet things you know; especially those true mechanical big bore engines.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

I absolutely abhor the turbo lag of the 2.2. You always have to keep it between the 1500-2000 band to get the best out of it.

The Scorpio facelift was significantly improved over the first gen 2.2 and the car I drove was the later one (2015 car) and I kind of never faced an issue with it - probably because I have a habit of shifting at 2500-3000 on hilly roads, and Scorpio pulls very very well there.

BTW I recently took an MLD equipped TUV to Nelong and it was kind of a nice car, it pulls very well even from under 1500 rpm and that is commendable for a 1.5l puny block pulling a car whose kerb weight itself is around 1.7 tonnes.

Originally Posted by JediKnight

One cabbie i talked in Himachal

Nothing beats those Alto K10 taxis in Himanchal - I tried chasing one with an Ecosport petrol; only futility!

[wanderingwolf]

XUV500 Automatic All Wheel Drive Mystic Copper.

Dear fellow BHPians, finally took the plunge and bought Mahindra XUV500 AT All Wheel Drive Mystic Copper. Oh, What a fun it is to drive. Did a long stretch from Ahmedabad to Mumbai and it was a breeze to touch triple digit speeds and overtake the traffic like a 🎩 magician. Posting some pics of my Cheeta

I am starting an initial ownership thread and would keep all of You updated.

Regards.