[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

.....
Is this 11-12 o clock normal? Will it never go lower than 11 o clock? even if say if I change the oils from the standard M&M recommended Mineral oil to some super synthetic one?

This 'engine temperature' is sensed in the coolant circuit and not the oil circuit!
Changing to a different grade of oil will never cause this temperature to show a different reading. This temperature is entirely controlled by the coolant recirculation valve and it's associated temperature sensor.

[m_upreti]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Ok so the Scorp has returned this evening from its 40000km service job
Jobs Done and Costs of the same appear below

Oil change 15W40 Valvoline Engine Oil 6 litres = Rs 1392
Oil Filter = Rs 151
Gear Oil 80W90 Syncro 2 litres = Rs 431
Differential Oil 80W90 EXL Maximile 1.8 litres = Rs 390
Front Brake Pads changed = Rs 3502
Foam Air Cleaner changed = Rs 482
Fuel Filter Cartridge = Rs 1626
Maximile Coolant - completely drained and changed 8 litres = Rs 1127.96
Brake and Clutch pedal pad rubber covers changed = Rs 52
Brake Fluid drained and changed 1 litre = Rs 268
Labour Value = Rs 3350
Spares and so on = Rs 8265
Taxes and so on = Rs 1500 odd
Total bill value = Rs 13117 less Rs 500 Special Discount for regular customer = Rs 12617/-

Dosent seem too high for a 40 K Kms servicing.

I think my VLX is also demanding a trip to the A.S.S. (Completed 16200 Kms)

- The Music system has stopped output to the speakers
- The reverse sensors are not working (confirmed by a light thud while
parking yesterday, since I was barely moving not even a scratch to
show for it)
- The vehicle is pulling to the left
- The gear shift is heavier
- The steering is giving too much feedback from the road
- Miscellaneous squeaks from the the interiors

Pls suggest what all checks / replacements / changes I should go in for apart from the items mentioned above.

[shankar.balan]

welcome back Anup!
long time no contact.
thanks for your input

Originally Posted by anupmathur

This 'engine temperature' is sensed in the coolant circuit and not the oil circuit!
Changing to a different grade of oil will never cause this temperature to show a different reading. This temperature is entirely controlled by the coolant recirculation valve and it's associated temperature sensor.

[shankar.balan]

Hi
Some suggestions specific to 2 of your points:
At 20K kms they would normally change the oil. The last oil changes would have been at the 5K mark. When the oils are completely drained and changed you will note a significant difference in the gear shift smoothness and overall driveability.
With ref to tyres and wheels - Every 5K Kms get all 5 wheels rotated bringing the spare into play. The tyres should be aligned and wheels balanced at the same time.
Every 10K kms I ve found it useful to dismantle all the tyres, remove them from the wheels, give everything a proper cleanup and turn the tyres around in the opposite direction to which they were facing earlier - this helps to ensure even wear and tear on the tyres. At this time also one does a tyre rotation as well as carries out the tyre balancing and wheel alignment. These steps help in enhancing tyre life.

Originally Posted by m_upreti

Completed 16200 Kms)

- The vehicle is pulling to the left
- The gear shift is heavier

Pls suggest what all checks / replacements / changes I should go in for apart from the items mentioned above.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by anupmathur

This 'engine temperature' is sensed in the coolant circuit and not the oil circuit!
Changing to a different grade of oil will never cause this temperature to show a different reading. This temperature is entirely controlled by the coolant recirculation valve and it's associated temperature sensor.

Further every engine is designed for an optimum temparature. Too high and seals may leak, too low and the efficiency goes down. In case the engine is designed for high temparature, the coolant should also be stable at high temparature. That is why it is not advisable to keep diluting the coolant with water, else the boiling point is depressed and the engine would be damaged due to in adequate cooling.

In case of loss of coolant, the temparature meter may show abnormally low temparature, which can mislead us into thinking all is well. With only a light to indicate over heating there is no indication of loss of coolant, so if you feel the engine is overheating but the indicator does not think so, stop the car, wait for it to cool down and then check the coolant. A sure indication of low coolant is when the overflow bottle is empty.

[m_upreti]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Hi
Some suggestions specific to 2 of your points:
At 20K kms they would normally change the oil. The last oil changes would have been at the 5K mark. When the oils are completely drained and changed you will note a significant difference in the gear shift smoothness and overall driveability.
With ref to tyres and wheels - Every 5K Kms get all 5 wheels rotated bringing the spare into play. The tyres should be aligned and wheels balanced at the same time.
Every 10K kms I ve found it useful to dismantle all the tyres, remove them from the wheels, give everything a proper cleanup and turn the tyres around in the opposite direction to which they were facing earlier - this helps to ensure even wear and tear on the tyres. At this time also one does a tyre rotation as well as carries out the tyre balancing and wheel alignment. These steps help in enhancing tyre life.

Thanks Shankar,

Small confusion regarding the tyre rotation, the tyres have been rotated at 5 K and 10 K Kms however the spare is still unused. As per Mahindra since the overall running of the car is low it is not required (The car is 2.7 Yrs old).

During the 5 K service the tyres were misaligned as a result all 4 got damaged on the edges and Bridgestone refused replacement on account of mishandling and quoted that the damage could lead to a mishap so M&M & the A.S.S. jointly replaced all the four tyres under warrenty.

So as per your suggestions I will:

1. Go for a oil change
2. Tyre rotation & turn around including the spare

Plus the other minor niggles which persist

[shankar.balan]

Hi
Ive been following the tyre rotation discipline for years now and find that it is a very good way to keep all tyres in play and ensure even wear and tear.
oil change will certainly result in a smoother feel and a buttery gear shift. Im experiencing it now because I ve just done the 40K kms service. It feels really lovely.
My jeep has done 40300 kms as of now - it is 3 years old.
No matter that your vehicle is 2.7 and has done less mileage. It is better, in case of very low mileage, to follow the half yearly service pattern. Keeps the vehicle in very good nick indeed.

cheers
sb

Originally Posted by m_upreti

Thanks Shankar,

Small confusion regarding the tyre rotation, the tyres have been rotated at 5 K and 10 K Kms however the spare is still unused. As per Mahindra since the overall running of the car is low it is not required (The car is 2.7 Yrs old).

During the 5 K service the tyres were misaligned as a result all 4 got damaged on the edges and Bridgestone refused replacement on account of mishandling and quoted that the damage could lead to a mishap so M&M & the A.S.S. jointly replaced all the four tyres under warrenty.

So as per your suggestions I will:

1. Go for a oil change
2. Tyre rotation & turn around including the spare

Plus the other minor niggles which persist

[getsurya]

Hi
Ive been following the tyre rotation discipline for years now and find that it is a very good way to keep all tyres in play and ensure even wear and tear.

Shankar is right! I too have been following the same rigor for all my cars owned so far. I have the four tyres balanced, aligned and rotated every 5k KM. My Scorpio has done 46k KM so far and the tyres can easily run another 15K without any issues.

[shankar.balan]

i met our fellow member Condor recently - he has similar Bridgestone Tyres on his Sumo. He's done about 60K kms he said, on those and they are good for another 15K kms atleast the way they look!
amazing life, provided one takes care of them.

Originally Posted by getsurya

Shankar is right! I too have been following the same rigor for all my cars owned so far. I have the four tyres balanced, aligned and rotated every 5k KM. My Scorpio has done 46k KM so far and the tyres can easily run another 15K without any issues.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

i met our fellow member Condor recently - he has similar Bridgestone Tyres on his Sumo. He's done about 60K kms he said, on those and they are good for another 15K kms atleast the way they look!
amazing life, provided one takes care of them.

As tyres deteriorate with time, it is possible to get 1L km if done in one year. Most of taxi owners get this sort of milage from their tyres. As tyres get older the rubber tends to deteriorate, hence the older the tyres the less milage they give.

[shankar.balan]

I also thought so. As per my info it is true that tyres harden over time - but as per nikhilb2008's reply on some other thread (he is a tyre expert), one can happily expect a tyre to go 3 to 5 years without seriously hardening or getting spoilt. after all we arent driving racing cars. but constant exposure to bad roads, lousy surfaces, off roading and extreme conditions of heat and cold will simply hasten the tyre's ageing process.
If it is normal city driving with some occasional out of town drives I guess a set of OEM tyres should last 50-60K Kms easily.

Originally Posted by Aroy

As tyres deteriorate with time, it is possible to get 1L km if done in one year. Most of taxi owners get this sort of milage from their tyres. As tyres get older the rubber tends to deteriorate, hence the older the tyres the less milage they give.

[Styler]

Originally Posted by hvkumar

Changed brake drums today evening.
LHS brake drum did not fit, so it had to mildly faced.
Braking is super now, I guess I can say the 2-month suffering of poor brakes is now at an end.
Fast trials tomorrow.

I have been reading this whole thread about the braking issues of HVK's scorpio. Not being too much of a techie, I possibly could not give much advise. I'm really happy that the problem is sorted out.

Being a Computer person myself, I always feel that there will always be a solution to any problem like this. Some solutions come fast, some take a little time, but eventually they all get sorted out.

Finally it was the Wheel Cylenders which were the problem. Looking back nobody guessed that.

I have a 2003 Model Non-CRDE Scorpio too, done about 80,000. I must say I have been pretty lucky to not run into any serious problems.

Recently I had to almost force the ASC to overall my suspension although there was nothing apparently wrong. They just dont have the concept of preventive maintenence. I told them to replace the rubber bushes and the ball joints etc. I had already replaced the front shockers. The total money spent on the Suspension was 10-12K, but gives me so much peace of mind for long drives.

For 2 Days they kept postponing giving me the vehicle after doing the suspension saying they were having some problems with wheel alignment, and the Vehicle moving to the left side. Finally when they gave me the vehicle the vehicle was not moving to the left, but the steering wheel center was out. When I inquired, they were just ready to adjust the steering wheel a notch on the gear. I refused, just took the vehicle.

Next day I took the Scorpio to my trusted Wheel Alignment person, who took a test ride, then adjusted the alignment, got the steering wheel centered. He took a test drive again, and the vehicle started pulling to the left. So we concluded that the jokers at the ASC had misaligned the Vehicle to stop it to pull to the left.

My wheel alignment guy just took a weight tied to the thread and placed it on the edge of the left wheel, and told me that the camber (I hope that's what the word was for the vertical alignment wheel) was out. He decided that they needed to put in a shimmi (A Metal Packing to get the vertical allignment right). It was a 5 minute job, and everything is perfect now. The steering wheel is centered, and the vehicle moves just straight as an arrow even when I have my hands off the wheel. Now what this Wheel Allignment guy did in 5 mins, without any electronic gadget, just with a thread, the ASC mechanics could not do in 2 days with all their gadgetry.

Fortunately I have some very reliable mechanics who repair all kind of new imported vehicles. Can you imagine my mechanic comes to my office once in a while and requests me to search on the internet for some Nissan Engine Troubleshooting guide, or to download some user manual of some Toyota. My mechanics are actually true fans of Toyota and really tried to dissuade me from buying this Scorpio, but i still did. Now I have conceded and we have mutually agreed that my next vehicle has to be a Toyota. We are infact looking for 2nd hand Toyota Camry, new Shape (2007 ) done about 50K for about 10 lacs.

All the best for your brakes HVK. And this time I am going to join you in Delhi when you raid the Himalayas.

Styler

[hvkumar]

Styler, thanks for the analysis - I entirely agree with you that maintenance drills in ASCs (and not just M&M) require major overhaul. Need for them to start looking at long-term maintenance issues and not just doing free services of oil and filter changes (not forgetting the coatings and polishing!).

Let me give you an update on my braking problem:

Yes, my Scorpio's braking problems have finally ended. I just returned from a 5,100-km drive to the South and braking has been spectacular. Lots of hard braking on occasions, and the car held its ground firmly and did what the brakes were expected to do.

[hvkumar]

When I was driving from Bombay to Coimbatore last week, approaching Chitradurga 9 hours into the journey, I was cruising in the 130-140s when I heard a tiny "tup" noise and I felt the car's acceleration drop. There was no visible symptoms (engine felt as smooth as ever) but I was unable to accelerate beyond the 80s. My first thought was - Oh, is that a turbo problem?

But got off and first checked for tyre punctures.

Checked the engine bay thoroughly, did not find anything amiss - all wires and pipes looked OK.

I stopped at the next air puncture shop, removed the air filter and had it
thoroughly air-cleaned. Put it back, problem persisted. Rev up the engine to
2500 rpm and the engine started shuddering and losing power. I had a spare air filter, put that in, but that also did not alter things.

Found a mechanic - the M&M ASC at Chitradurga is still under construction - and we changed the fuel filters (not the M&M fuel filters though). Did not make any difference.

Checked all pipes and they all appeared to be securely fastened, so it could not be a turbo problem - or so it seemed.

I had no chance but to drive on to Bangalore which was 200 kms away. Smooth drive except that I was not able to cross 100 kmph. Thanks to a friend in Bangalore, he briefed M&M ASC SKS Auto in Bangalore and fixed up a "VIP" appointment for me there to attend to the vehicle on arrival on emergency basis (since I was proceeding to Coimbatore direct without stopping over in Bangalore).

On reaching SKS on Bangalore's Banergetta Road at 630 pm, my Scorpio was wheeled in for checks. The problem was immediately found - a burst ntercooler outlet rubber pipe. The pipe is in the bottom - and I have never changed it all these years, although I have changed ALL other rubber pipes for the turbo and cooling system - and obviously the rubber had outlived its useful life.

Unlike the "best" ASCs in Bombay (who do shoddy work and never have parts for my model of Scorpio), SKS had the part and immediately had it fixed and the way they handled the job restores a lot of confidence in the M&M service network.

Lessons learnt - when you face sudden loss of acceleration on a highway drive:
- Check if you have fuel
- Check & clean air filter, replace if possible
- Check fuel filter
- Check all pipes

I must specially commend Mr Mahesh, Deputy Service Manager at SKS who personally diagnosed, supervised and test-drove the car and got the work done efficiently in quick time. Thanks You, SKS Auto, Banergeta Road, Bangalore.

After fitting the new outlet pipe,the acceleration and power looked to be OK.......but that is another story.

[hvkumar]

....But my problems with acceleration had not ended despite fixing the turbo system leak (which I discussed in my previous post).

After being forced to stay back in Bangalore thanks to the problem, I set off next morning for Coimbatore. I found acceleration was smooth but I did not develop speeds beyond 120 kmph and found the engine gasping when I gave it full gas especially when I was overtaking another vehicle leading to a very dangerous situation.

I could do nothing about the problem immediately, being busy with work, but I checked into TVS in Trivandrum (where I went from Coimbatore) 3 days later.

Their diagnosis was that there was definitely fuel starvation most probably due to some blockage in the fuel tank and wanted to dismount it immediately - and take 2 days of course - to complete the work. This I refused being in midst of a tour and having to leave the next day. The second hypothesis they had was that the fuel pump was defective but I had to rebut that because the fuel pump has been leaking diesel for 2 years and I have not found any problems so far because of that.

Therefore, we settled for the flushing & decarbonising routine which is supposed to clean injectors, etc. This was the quickest solution that they could think of.

All fuel lines were checked - for cuts, blockages (by blowing compressed air into the pipes) but although the flushing/decarb routine did improve matters and the engine could rev up beyond 3500 rpm, yet it did not feel smooth.

The fuel feed pipe - feeding the fuel filter - was changed (I have already changed the rubber pipe from the filter to the fuel pump earlier). And that worked - the 6-year rubber pipe was indeed the culprit and I found the accelerator pedal lighter and the power back to its old form.

The most positive fallout: the leak in the fuel pump has COMPLETELY stopped! Thinking about that, it looks that the injectors were not consuming their full quota of fuel which was obviously creating back-pressure in the fuel pump and the ensuing leak. Last 2 days, I have driven 2,800 kms in the last 2 days & 2 nights non-stop and the engine never lost its rev, I got to top speeds of 150 kmph easily and the fuel pump has stopped leaking (something which used to happen earlier on my full-speed long-distance non-stop drives).

Lessons learnt:
- Replace rubber fuel pipes if >3 years old
- ASCs come up with predicatable responses by which they try to get rid of the problem in their courtyard - blaming it on fuel pumps (so that Bosch or Lucas have to do the work)or cleaning fuel tanks - Fuel system problems can be due to least-expected reasons. I have been badgered to open my the fuel pump - to cure it of its leak - but a cleaning of injectors and changing of feed pipes has stopped the leak!

Let me give you my analysis of the problem (I am no techie, so pardon my lack of understanding of vehicle mechanicals):

1. I used to do the flushing/ decarbonising routine regularly at the ASC till around a year ago. Never had a problem with power drops earlier, started in the last 1 year.

2. I have never cleaned the injectors so far.

3. I use mostly hi-speed diesel which is supposed to keep injectors happier.

4. When the power drop problem started, I had the air filter checked (because that causes less air intake and hence lower power), the fuel filters checked (because that restricts supply of fuel to the fuel pump), the leakage in the fuel pump (since my fuel pump has been bleeding diesel and hence could be pumping in less), topped up on fuel (since contaminated diesel could be causing problems) before getting onto more complicated issues like clogged injectors, loosened pipes for turbo system/fuel system and so on.

5. One obvious culprit was contamination/ particle blockades inside the fuel tank, especially in the "mesh" where the fuel gets out of the fuel tank. But that means dismounting the fuel tank, emptying it, pouring some cleaning fluids inside and then flushing it out after a few hours. I have never done this before in 6 years, mainly because it is a skilled job and ASCs are known for their poor workmanship. I have done this before in my earlier cars and lived several months thereafter of agony with fuel tank abrasing other components, and so on. During this long trip, I neither had the time nor the inclination to waste time or invite further problems, and hence I did not want to do this.

6. The turbo system problems were fixed - as explained in the earlier mail - and that ruled out any leaks there which could be causing turbo lag or poor functioning of the turbo itself.

7. The fuel pump has been leaking for last 2 years, and I have shown it to Bosch service centre, but we have consciously decided not to open it up - very expensive affair, calibration also gets affected - and since the leak must be due to a O Ring, we decided to leave it alone since I had no problems with acceleration of power.

8. Fuel feed lines and the injector were key suspect nows. Each fuel feed pipe was examined and flushed out with compressed air. There are 3 feed pipes - tank to front, intake for fuel filter and intake for fuel pump. While the first is partly metal, the rest are all reinforced flexible rubber pipes. And rubber has a lifetime of 3-4 years, and I think they SHOULD be replaced at least every 3 years regardless of kms run. I have replaced the fuel filter-fuel pump pipe before, but not the rest. Needless to say, a cut or ballooning of the rubber inside the pipe could be constricting supply of diesel to the pump and engine.

9. The injector clogging - I address it by using Hi-Speed diesels which are supposed to clean out the fuel systems including injectors. Many purists and the M&M ASCs themselves advise against using them, but I have been using them on and off all these years and my engine and fuel pump are none the worse off for that. In fact, from the moment I switched back to ordinary diesel, problems of power loss have started. I have never used System D which is also supposed to do the same cleansing work.

10. In my case, it looks to me that either the injectors were clogged or the fuel feed pipe was to fault - because everything has become OK when I flushed/decarbonised the fuel pipes and changed one of the fuel feed pipes.

11. Not only did the power come back, but also the fuel pump leakage stopped. I had a detailed discussion with a friend who is sound on pumps and he explained that back pressure created by poor spraying from the injectors could result in fuel trying to return to the fuel pump, creating pressure on the fuel pump body and exerting pressure on the seals (like O Rings), and over a period of time eroding them. Maybe that is why the O Ring in the fuel pump started bleeding diesel. This used to happen typically in high-speed runs when I am flooring the accelerator and fuel supply is at the highest. Therefore, when the injectors are unable to take in the fuel that the pump supplies it, there is shuddering and leakage of the "excess" fuel inside the fuel pump itself. Now that the injectors/fuel flow is restored to normal, the pressure against the fuel pump body have ceased and leakage itself gone. I have driven over 3,500 kms after the cleaning and the fuel pump body looks dry. Need to review it after a few days to ascertain if it is really gone.,

12. The overall conclusion is (a) clean injectors, and (b) change rubber pipes after 3 years.

BTW, in case you are wondering why my Scorpio is having so many problems, please remember that it has crossed 2.68 lakh kms in 6 years or so, and is definitely the rigours of old age are showing up.