[Omkar0044]

Hi,
This is my first post in the problem thread after 3 years of ownership.
I will start right from the beginning. About a year ago, I started feeling that my 2005 Scorpio CRDe was not as eager to start up as before. Earlier it would start with just half a crank. Now it would require one full crank. It was winter and I attributed this problem to the battery which promptly died and I replaced it with a new Amaron battery. But things did not change much. I also got the fuel tank and fuel lines cleaned up and checked for leaks and such. The mechanic at the Authorized Service Center claimed to have found a leak in the fuel line which was allegedly sucking air and claimed to have fixed it. But things didn't improve. I didn’t give it too much thought though since the vehicle would start anyways and about 6 months later, I started having this peculiar problem.
The vehicle turns off immediately after I start it, ONLY when the engine is warm.
This does not happen all the time but only occasionally. The car eventually starts up when I give it a long crank and rev it up immediately after it starts. Almost like an old scooter.
After a minimum of 6-8 kms of running, if I turn the engine off at a traffic signal or something like that and then try to start up the engine, this problem occurs. This is the problem definition that I gave the service advisors.

Date : 25th June 2011 - FIRST VISIT
I went to an Authorized Service Center in Bangalore
Their response:
· They hooked up the diagnostic laptop and saw that an error code was coming up related to the camshaft.
· They cleaned a few sensors here and there and saw that the error code was still showing up.
· They said that the whole wiring needs to be checked and it will require one to two days.

So I collected the car that day and planned to leave it for the repair work the next week.

Date : 30th June 2011 - SECOND VISIT
I sent my vehicle to Authorized Service Center thru a friend.

· This time they said it would take a week to check all the wiring.
· I was surprised at this hike in time estimate and spoke to the manager. He said he would look into the matter and did nothing.
· I could do nothing except keep calling the manager and the service advisor about the status of the repairs and both would promise to call back which they didn’t.
· Finally on 05th july 2011 the service advisor called up to say that the vehicle was ready for delivery.

I took a day's leave to collect my vehicle from the garage!!! I went to the garage on 06th july 2011.
While taking me on the trial run of the vehicle to show that the problem was solved, the service supervisor explained the work done on my machine during the 6 day period that the vehicle was with them:
· The wiring and ECU was completely checked and no faults were found. The problem persisted.
· The cam sensor was changed and still the problem persisted.
· The engine front cover was removed and the valve timing was checked and tappets adjusted and the problem persisted.
· The cam sensor was changed again and the electrical connections to the battery was checked and the problem was solved!

The service supervisor explained all this to me while driving the car and after running the vehicle for around 10 km, he turned the vehicle off and started it again and the engine turned off!

The problem had not been solved.

We drove back to the garage and the manager said they will have to change the wiring harness and the camshaft and check again and these parts will take 4-5 days to be procured.
Since there was no other option, I collected my faulty scorpio and told them to call me when the concerned parts were available.
The bill that I was served with was also a surprise. I was billed for a new sensor among other things. I had the new sensor removed from my vehicle and from the bill. Then I was served with a second bill which had Rs. 2000 for "removal and refitting of engine front cover". This was done to check the camshaft etc. I told them that I could not be billed for some work which has not yielded results. So they knocked off the Rs. 2000 and provided me with another bill.
I was basically charged Rs. 2571.49 for not solving the problem.
Then I rolled up my sleeves and got down to it myself. A few friends were contacted (from bosch and elsewhere) and one of the solutions suggested to me was based on the diagnosis that the cam sensor is not able to pick up the position of the cam gear due to increase in clearance. So the engine front cover or the sensor seat has to be faced in order to bring the sensor closer to the cam gear. I got that done by simply removing the O ring of the sensor.
I didn’t want to get too happy too soon and since the problem was intermittent and not always occurring, I wanted to wait for some more time before claiming to have solved the problem.
As it stands today, the problem of the engine shutting down as soon as it starts up has not recurred.
However, the slightly late starting issue was still unsolved.
Then one fine day around a month ago, I stopped at a fuel station to tank up as it has almost become empty and when I tried to start it up, it took three loooong cranks to shake it to life. I tried to not think too much of it and carried on.
A couple of days ago, after a 10 km drive, I turned off the engine to speak to one of my friends and after 15 mins when I tried to start it up, it just didn’t. I had to crank it up around 10 times before it finally woke up. Once it was up, it started running smooth as ever and as felt just as peppy as ever. But this incident scared me out of my habit of switching it off at signals and such.
The engine malfunction/check light did not come on on both occasions.

Here are some other details about my vehicle.
Total mileage done: 88000 km
Average fuel efficiency: 10
Diesel filter last changed: 7000 km ago
Air filter last replaced: 4000 km ago
Air mass sensor last cleaned: 200 km ago
Fuel station generally tanked up at: Bharat Petroleum
Fuel used: Normal diesel

Fuel additives used: None

In city driving: 40 %
Highway driving: 60 %

Driving style: Pretty spirited, mostly shifting at 3000rpm

Engine oil: Castrol Magnatec

Engine Oil change intervals: every 10,000 km

As it stands today, my vehicle has a intermittent starting problem which is very worrisome because I have no clue as to when it might rear it's head. It might happen at very inopportune moments and since I regularly drive long distances alone in the middle of nowhere, I want a Scorp which will never let me down. Any fresh ideas/ new perspectives would be welcome as to what I need to get done at the Authorized Service Center. Though the Authorized Service Center guys are pretty much in the woods when something unusual crops up, they are willing to try what I suggest. So I will be doing everything in the Authorized Service Center.

I hope the novel above is pretty comprehensive and explains everything Please do ask me anything else that you would like to know.

Looking forward to suggestions and any random thoughts. I am willing to try almost anything to make my ride 100% reliable.

Thanks Guys

Mods note:Removing [font] tags, please avoid copy pasting from external font editors. Also do a Preview before Submit. Thanks.

[Guderian]

Originally Posted by Omkar0044

This is my first post in the problem thread after 3 years of ownership.
[/b]

Hi Omkar,
That indeed was a nice, long description which, despite the trying circumstances you are facing, was a good read !
Once again you bring to surface issues with the M&M ASCs which many of the Scorp owners (current & past - like me) seem to be realising/have realised:
- Poor diagnostic skills and a general lack of technical skills on the shop floor.
- Lack of easy availability of parts of the earlier models.
- At some/many ASCs - unscrupulous methods of making the customer pay for services not rendered and in general a lack of standard billing practice despite all the visible 'Charge/s Display Boards'.
- Inability to handle large volumes of vehicles coming back for service - thanks to all the popular models released in the market.
- Total apathy towards the customer and his/her issues.
- All in all a great piece of equipment (VFM) like the Scorpio - ruined by the ASCs.

Very few ASCs which have the potential to delight you with their service.

And what is worrisome is that this trend seems to be catching up with most of the other companies too which hitherto had a great name in service quality and reliability.

Now coming back to the issues raised by you:
- Some of the older CRDes (or at least mine did - yeah, I had a Sept 2005 beauty) used to have/have an issue with starting, once in a way as well as the engine shutting down while on the move & when changing gears especially from 2nd to 3rd. The problem was traced to faulty clutch switches. This never came up or got thrown up on the diagnostic lap top based tool. (In any case in most of the ASCs the blokes are real scared of deploying this tool as they are clueless about it and if any issue is thrown up then have no idea as to how to analyse it and come to a logical conclusion on how to set it right !)
I had changed the switch twice in 5.5 years of ownership.

- Did you check the alternator output or have the alternator serviced as yet ?

- Checked and serviced the starter itself ?

Good luck and do let us know the final outcome !

[Omkar0044]

Hi Guderian,

"Very few ASCs which have the potential to delight you with their service."
+1 to that :(

Thanks a lot for the response,
"The problem was traced to faulty clutch switches."
This is

[Omkar0044]

Hi Guderian,

"Very few ASCs which have the potential to delight you with their service."
You can say that again!

"The problem was traced to faulty clutch switches."
I hadn't thought/heard about this at all. Any more details as to where it is located and what it's function is? I'll need as much info about this as I can because I myself will be the "service supervisor" directing all the repairs at the ASC.

I hadn't mentioned anything about the clutch earlier as I thought that it will have no connection to starting problems. There is something to be told about the clutch too:
The clutch was pretty HARD from ages and the ASC guys would always say "Clutch plate is worn out. replacement is the only remedy". I was not inclined to believe this as I don't ride the clutch or drive too much in stop go traffic. I drove with the "worn out" clutch for 40,000 km. Finally last week I got it replaced. The clutch is not very soft now either. However it's far better than before.
But the first time the starting problem had occurred was a month ago on the old clutch and the the second time was a few days ago on the new clutch.

- The alternator output and the battery were checked when the whole wiring of the Scorp was checked. However I'll get it checked again.

- I am not inclined to suspect the battery or starter because when I crank it up, there is no hint of hesitation from the starter and it cranks strongly. However, I'll get this checked too.

Thanks a lot for the response.
Will definitely keep you updated about the progress.

[Guderian]

Originally Posted by Omkar0044

This is my first post in the problem thread after 3 years of ownership.
[/b]

Originally Posted by Guderian

- Some of the older CRDes (or at least mine did - yeah, I had a Sept 2005 beauty) used to have/have an issue with starting, once in a way as well as the engine shutting down while on the move & when changing gears especially from 2nd to 3rd. The problem was traced to faulty clutch switches. This never came up or got thrown up on the diagnostic lap top based tool. (In any case in most of the ASCs the blokes are real scared of deploying this tool as they are clueless about it and if any issue is thrown up then have no idea as to how to analyse it and come to a logical conclusion on how to set it right !)
I had changed the switch twice in 5.5 years of ownership.

- Did you check the alternator output or have the alternator serviced as yet ?

- Checked and serviced the starter itself ?

PS:
While on the subject:
- Also have the MAFS (Mass Air Flow Sensor - sitting next to the air filter box on the post filter hose ) checked and cleaned. Even this sensor can play games if the internal points are covered with dust and muck. This issue too doesn't show up on the diagnostic tool output.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by asdfvinay

Thanks Guderian, I will have it replaced as soon as possible. The break is nearer to the centre. I think I am living with this broken leaf for years, just that it is noticed now. The rear right of the vehicle is lower than the left, the difference is too small and not normally noticeable. I noticed this change in the initial days after buying this used scorp, but did not expect anything wrong as the difference is very small. ASC now said this is the reason.

ASC here have fired the leaf springs guy/consultant(may be they do not need them now). I will now have to find someone outside and get this done.

In any major trucking centre you will find experts in leaf spring repair/replacement. In my opinion they are better than the ASC, as this is all that they do. In one of the threads a Gypsy owner had the leaf springs replaced in Srinagar from such an expert, so finding one in Hyderabad should be easy.

[Guderian]

Originally Posted by Omkar0044

I hadn't thought/heard about this at all. Any more details as to where it is located and what it's function is? I'll need as much info about this as I can because I myself will be the "service supervisor" directing all the repairs at the ASC.

The clutch was pretty HARD from ages and the ASC guys would always say "Clutch plate is worn out. replacement is the only remedy". I was not inclined to believe this as I don't ride the clutch or drive too much in stop go traffic. I drove with the "worn out" clutch for 40,000 km. Finally last week I got it replaced. The clutch is not very soft now either. However it's far better than before.
But the first time the starting problem had occurred was a month ago on the old clutch and the the second time was a few days ago on the new clutch.

Hi Omkar,
1. In the CRDe as far as the clutch switch is concerned it is located on the clutch pedal assembly. Just above the pedal. It sends impulses or signals to the ECU about the clutch deployment which in turn signals the engine to perform in a particular manner in terms of fuel intake and quantity etc. The clutch switch is a switch, period. As mentioned earlier if it is faulty the engine has tendency to die out when running/not start properly etc. This was my experience and when the same was changed the problem vanished. I think it costed/costs about 400 bucks but then both times I had it replaced under warranty. The second time it occurred I knew exactly what it was due to and asked them to just replace it. No debates. The first time had to do a little bit of R&D as well and eliminate/rule out a few other causes like the MAFS malfunction/air filter choke etc. Normally this should be indicated by the diagnostic tool test - but some times it doesn't and even if does the grease monkeys on the shop floor are puzzled as to what exactly is the error code indication all about.

2. Now coming to the hard clutch issue of the 2005 CRDes. Again an old issue. To bring you to speed - I am not sure whether your Scorp ever underwent a retrofit to replace the entire clutch assembly in 2006/2007. Well in 2006/07 M&M had ordered the ASCs to retrofit all 2005/06 Scorp CRDes (in a particular VIN series) with new clutch assemblies after a litany of complaints against hard clutches and resultant change of fortunes of Ortho surgeons with piles of money being made by them on knee replacements !

Anyway the ASCs, as usual, played truant and never mentioned it to any of the owners & carried out the retrofits only if there was a complaint of hardness and even if there was a complaint of harness fobbed the customer off with a lot of other excuses and carried out everything else except the retrofits and usually persistent customers only got it done. A few of the owners having contacts in M&M then circulated the details to the Scorpio Owners Group and many went to the ASCs raised a noise and got the work done. Yours truly included.
All FOC of course. Even the clutch oil wasn't to be paid for as it was a retrofit.
The 7 components to be/then changed were - the clutch pedal assembly, master cylinder, slave cylinder, fork, clutch release bearing, pressure plate and clutch plate. After this for the rest of its life with me, my Scorp had a butter soft clutch pedal action. As I could make on the shop floor when the work was being carried out (yes, I always stand next to my vehicle when it goes under the scalpel, don't leave anything to chance or the mercy of the chaps there) there was a substantial change in design of the old and new components especially of the fork, pedal and master cylinder.

I am sure by now the ASCs would have totally forgotten about this particular retrofit as it is truly history for them - so not sure what you can do about it if your vehicle hasn't undergone this retrofit. Perhaps talk to your Regional M&M Service Manager and see what he/she can do about it ?

[rohi_rao]

My share of niggling issues on my Sle
1. Just after 8 months the now famous power window getting stuck issue started. Sireesh auto at Marathhalli just did some rewinding of the motor even after I had asked them to replace. The problem kept coming again; once just before our Coorg trip; they sent their road-assist guy at night and he fixed it temporarily. I raised a hell about it and the Hosur road guys (you should talk to the Technical Manager straight away) told M&M is retro-fitting the following: Wiring harness for the power window, the power window switch console in the front, the voltage regulators. The wiring harness had not yet arrived but got the rest changed. Regulators were changed for front ones.
Cost incurred: Rs 0/- and got a free wash!!
Funny but the power windows always stopped working after the vehicle was washed by our regular guy.

2. The door open/close switch on the back door doesn't work always. So when you have opened it for some time, the vehicle auto locks after the usual 30seconds or so. This of course has the other impact that the "door open" warning light/voice message won't notify you.

One more observation: The water spray on the windshield does not cover the driver side efficiently. When the bugs loose their life on the windshield you just cant "wipe" its remains and that smudge remains in your view.

Advice: Always keep the service records to show when you reported the problem. If you encounter an issue which can be resolved by parts replacement but the parts arrive late after your warranty period you can show them it was their delay and not yours.

[Omkar0044]

Hi Guderian,
Some updates.

1. The people in the ASC dont know about the clutch switch at all. They say such an electronic device is present only in the Miocro Hybrid M Hawks.

2. I dont think my scorp has been retrofitted with the new/modified clutch assembly. The hard clutch issue will be taken up by me once this pressing issue (starting problem) is solved.

Now coming to the starting problem,

- The air flow sensor was cleaned last week and is as good as new.

When I took it to the ASC and explained the starting problem, they as ausual, suspected the diesel supply. They thought that some air must be getting sucked into the fuel system. A bolt was loosened near the neck of the diesel filter and the piston over the filter assembly used for priming was pumped. A significant quantity of diesel-air froth was expelled, and then it began expelling only diesel. The bolt was tightened and I was sent on my way.

I drove around for a coupla days and the starting problem occurred again. I had driven a short distance (around 3-4km) from my home on a cold engine and had stopped the scorp to clean it's windsheild which might have taken 5 mins. When I got back into the car and cranked it up, it wouldnt start. It finally did after 5 cranks.

So I went back to the ASC and they once again "primed" the fuel supply which once again expelled some froth. So they said "probably the diesel filter assembly has to be replaced, it's takin in air from somewhere. Costs around Rs.8000". Hmm. I said I'll think about it.

The next day in a similar fashion, when I had stopped at a signal after around 10 mins of driving, it took me 5-6 cranks to start up. Thi time it was bad because I was holding up traffic.

My observation till date is
- there is no problem with cold starts. starts up with one crank
- till today havent encountered any problems when the engine has run for say 20-30 mins.

Will have the fuel lines checked shortly. Wondering what else might be the problem. The scorp runs like a dream otherwise. The engine just sings. Anybody who drives it wants to buy it.

P.S: Just crossed the 90,000km mark yesterday!

Thanks for the responses

[Guderian]

Hi Omkar,

Originally Posted by Omkar0044

1. The people in the ASC dont know about the clutch switch at all. They say such an electronic device is present only in the Miocro Hybrid M Hawks.

Mein Gott !
I just can't believe this statement from the ASC chaps ! Good lord - have they turned this bad to make such a statement ?!!
All Scorpio CRDEs have the clutch switch.
Please ask them to just check and change the switch located on the clutch pedal - if they can't understand any other term.

I checked my old Scorpio CRDe records/invoices - the part number of the clutch switch is - 0606DB0011N. Give them this number.

As informed I had changed it twice under warranty.

The cost of the switch about 3 years ago was Rs 305/-.

Originally Posted by Omkar0044

When I took it to the ASC and explained the starting problem, they as ausual, suspected the diesel supply. They thought that some air must be getting sucked into the fuel system.

This could be a possibility if any of the fuel lines are cracked along the way. Might be an idea to replace the lines as it doesn't cost much and they could have indeed cracked as they are made of HD plastic, IIRC. This causes the air intake.

Originally Posted by Omkar0044

So they said "probably the diesel filter assembly has to be replaced, it's takin in air from somewhere. Costs around Rs.8000". Hmm. I said I'll think about it.

I am a little doubtful about this as these are pretty reliable and sturdy and generally lasts a lifetime. I have never heard of this problem and neither did my Scorp have this - none of the other owners, I know, have reported this particular issue.

I'd say that have them to check the clutch switch ( a strong contender for the role of the villain of the piece !) and also have the fuel lines checked before anything else.

Finally - if the ASC chaps are just not able to diagnose anything properly - as mentioned earlier please contact M&M's Regional Service Manager ASAP !

Originally Posted by Omkar0044

P.S: Just crossed the 90,000km mark yesterday!

Congratulations !

[Aroy]

If you have air froth in diesel, first suspect is the diesel line, as stated it is a relatively low cost item so change it, especially if the Scorpio is more than 5 years old, as by that time a lot of small metal parts and synthetic parts start failing due to age and wear & tear.

[hvkumar]

Originally Posted by hvkumar

An update on the problem with premature failure of the Clutch Release Bearing during my Ladakh trip last month.

As I mentioned, the matter escalated to M&M (through this thread in team-bhp & member m.khanna) and last week, M&M person inspected the part and decided to refund me the cost that I had incurred in changing the Clutch Plate assembly at Global Gallarie, Thane, before the Ladakh trip. They had no explanation to offer as to why the CRB took such a beating in such a short time (6000 kms) – clearly an instance of bad workmanship in fitting the CP assembly – but the matter is satisfactorily resolved for now.

This was long, long ago.
The Clutch Plate was fitted in July.
It prematurely failed in August, replaced.
Problem escalated to M&M with the help of our friend m.khanna in September.
M&M agreed to refund me the cost of the Clutch Plate since I had already replaced it on my way back from Ladakh at another ASC (in Pathankot).
I kept on chasing the dealer Global Gallarie, Thane, ever since, they kept promising the refund cheque, dodging and otherwise delaying.
In the meantime, I did other repairs in the car, paying money, when actually they owed me money!
In ultimate frustration, I escalated the issue again to M&M, still no cheque forthcoming.
Again, m.khanna to the rescue, a few phone calls by him and I got my cheque today evening (home delivered by the dealer, with an apology).

One can only say that we have friends like m.khanna who not only are our 24x7 helplines when it comes to troubleshooting technical problems - I stopped depending on service advisors & the M&M helpline long ago - but also going to extraordinary lengths to help us engage the senior management on commercial issues.

THANKS, MANOJ KHANNA ji, but for people like you, we would have discarded our Scorpios long ago Keep up the great work. If M&M and its dealers were even half as helpful, knowledgeable and responsive as you are, this Indian car company would have gone a long way ahead of the others by now.

[Guderian]

Originally Posted by Omkar0044

So I went back to the ASC and they once again "primed" the fuel supply which once again expelled some froth.

Originally Posted by Guderian

I'd say that have them to check the clutch switch ( a strong contender for the role of the villain of the piece !) and also have the fuel lines checked before anything else.

Incidentally - have you ever felt a loss of power when driving around ? Or a general loss of power 'these' days as compared to the 'early' days of owning the Scorpio ? That is yet another symptom of small quantities of air getting into the fuel lines.
Also if there is a crack in the fuel lines you should be able to spot the fuel wicking, along with muck, on the lines if you peer underneath - left hand side where the lines in the CRDe run from the fuel tank to the engine. But you wont be able to spot the same if the cracks are on the lines as it snakes upwards to the engine. Trust the fuel filter area doesn't show any indication/wickage of leaks/cracks etc.

[Styler]

Hi

I have a 2003 Scorpio done about 88,000 kms till now. There is no issue in running the vehicle, the pick-up or starting or anything else.

For the last few months I have had a peculiar " Tee Tee" Sound from the vehicle. It is something like the cricket (Insect) sound in the rains. It comes off and on.
I have noticed the following about this "Teeee Teeee" some kind of electronic hum kind of sound.

1. The sound comes off and on randomly.
2. It comes even when the Scorpio is idle.
3. It comes with the AC off
4. It comes when the Stereo is off.

Initially I thought it could be from the dashboard. It comes even when the Audio is off. I thought perhaps it could be coming from the old mechanical tachometer wire, but my mechanics told me that the tachometer is just running through a sensor without any rotating cable. It cant be coming from the mechanical rotating speedometer cable since it comes even when the vehicle is stationary and idling.

My neighborhood mechanic says it is coming from the engine bay, and it could be from the turbo or some bearing, but we have not been able to find out the exact source. The ' teeeee teeee" sound is audible with windows rolled up in the cabin, but when we roll down the window or go near the engine bay, it is not clearly audible because of the engine noise.

Any ideas of what it could be ? Or could my vehicle just be infested by a few crickets

BTW anybody faced sound from the Turbo of old scorpios ? HVK Sir have you had any issue with the Turbo of your non-crde engine ?

Regards
Styer

[Aroy]

It seems that the sound is quite low, hence you may be missing it while the AC or Stereo is on. It is most probably a loose piece - wire or a panel, which is in sympathetic vibration to the engine.

Best way to trace a sound is to use a 1-2m long pipe, any pipe even a garden hose. Put one end to your ear and move the other end where you think the sound is coming from. The pipe will act as a stethoscope and you can easily home in to it fast, provided you start near it.