[Ajay_J]

@Ripper, Good job. I too believe that now INDICA is emerging as a VFM winner. And V3 is going to kill all the debates. Amen.

@ET, I do not think that Swift's steering lacks feedback. It infact gives excellent feedback. But its more of video game like response hence mistaken as "lacking feedback" by the people graduating from HPS to EPS.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by rippergeo

A heavy steering in the palio does not mean its giving you good feedback. it just means its heavy.
agreed it gives feedback, and that it is better than most sedans I've used, but it feels lacking when compared to the swift.

You are contracdicting yourself!
So a Palio steering is better than many sedans but not better than Swift... So can we conclude Swift has a better steering than most cars, this side BMW maybe.
Good on ya mate.... enjoy!

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by Ajay_J

@ET, I do not think that Swift's steering lacks feedback. It infact gives excellent feedback. But its more of video game like response hence mistaken as "lacking feedback" by the people graduating from HPS to EPS.

Ajay... there was no feedback whatsoever. I dont know what your idea of feedback is but it tells me what the front wheels are upto. Honda city with EPS is just as numb, Swift is 'numb'er and slack too.

[condor]

PatienceWins : @condor: I do not understand your theory. A car consists of features and what is wrong in comparing the features in different cars? You cannot just compare two cars without considering the various parts/ features that make the car.

@PW, By all means, let us compare features. But when the underlying design is different, then we need to make that allowance. Compare a HPS with another HPS. Comparing EPS vs HPS is a different topic altogether. EPS vs HPS will become analogous to discussing petrol vs diesel.

We can do a HPS vs EPS when we are discussing PS separately. Till then, suffice to say that since the PS mechanisms in these two are different, there will be a difference.

[prabuddhadg]

I liked Rippergeo's comparison of the three cars. However, I do not agree on two points. One is that my 2006 Petra's doors have sheets as solid as older Palios I have compared with. So, if we are comparing just the car bodies, I think these cars continue to be as good as before.

About steering, I have driven the Swift at 100, and on a slightly undulating road it felt pretty vague and scary. On that same road, my Petra does not even remind me of the quality of the road. It is quite possible that some people can handle the Swift's steering and prefer that to the heavy feel of the Palio/Petra steering, but I just can't let the nice Palio steering feel be relegated against the Swift's. My opinion.

[supremeBaleno]

Nice comparo and pretty fair too IMO, rippergeo.
Ofcourse, there is the possibility of a little bias creeping in, due to your owning the Swift, but then who can claim to be unbiased here ?

Only one question : Your comparo has the Swift and the Palio scoring on most of the factors, but in the end, you say that the Indica is the most VFM. If you were in the market today with these 3 choices available, would your buy be the Indica-Dicor ?

Originally Posted by blue_pulsar

Swift has good front visibility.

Well, the extra wide A-pillar does not do much good for the frontal visibility also. This is one car in which I use all the 3 RVMs and still feel so lacking as far as visibility is concerned. It sure has its pluses (lots of them), but visibility is definitely not one of them.

[PatienceWins]

Originally Posted by condor

@PW, By all means, let us compare features. But when the underlying design is different, then we need to make that allowance. Compare a HPS with another HPS. Comparing EPS vs HPS is a different topic altogether. EPS vs HPS will become analogous to discussing petrol vs diesel.

@condor: I understand your point. Thanks for the clarification brother.

I was not comparing EPS vs hydraulic. I have driven both the cars at high speeds and I was not referring to the heaviness of a hydraulic steering compared to an electronic power steering. I was referring to the actual feedback during turns at high speeds. It may be because I am more used to the hydraulic steering.
The handling of Swift in the ghat section was teriffic and I was wondering how amazing the feeling would be with hydraulic steering.

[phamilyman]

chill torque yaar. chidranveshan se khya.everyone's entitled to their subjective judgements!

[speedzak]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

everyone's entitled to their subjective judgements!

Not when it comes to FiAT and Palio.
Anything said/written against it will definitely be considered as VAGUE, BIASED, CONTRADICTING etc...
Sorry! But that's the way it happens here. Otherwise, such a nice writeup by Ripper would have been appreciated better.

[MADMAX111]

I agree with ripper regarding build quality of Palio. I have driven my friend's Palio1.2 earlier(2003 model) and recently test driven Palio MJD. The MJD build quality is definetly lower in terms of sheet metal etc and except outside looks I did not find the car outstanding in any aspect.
I think my views are unbiased as I dont own either Palio, Swift or Indica. I left Swift out of my buying decision due to less sapce at rear and tinny metal and rattles. Was opting for Palio but the TD definetly ruled it out. Like I said earlier Nothing Outstanding except looks.

[prabuddhadg]

Originally Posted by speedzak

Not when it comes to FiAT and Palio.
Anything said/written against it will definitely be considered as VAGUE, BIASED, CONTRADICTING etc...
Sorry! But that's the way it happens here. Otherwise, such a nice writeup by Ripper would have been appreciated better.

You know what, we Fiat owners went ahead and bought our Fiats in the face of such opposition that we feel we are the real car enthusiasts and others who drive mainstream cars are not enthusiasts like we are.

So, we feel, (and to some extent we are right) that people do not really know the worth of our Fiats. So, given a hint of an opportunity, we wax eloquent about how wonderful our cars are.

Honest, this is how my mind works. And I am not being at all sarcastic.

[Ajay_J]

Originally Posted by prabuddhadg

You know what, we Fiat owners went ahead and bought our Fiats in the face of such opposition that we feel we are the real car enthusiasts and others who drive mainstream cars are not enthusiasts like we are.

So, we feel, (and to some extent we are right) that people do not really know the worth of our Fiats. So, given a hint of an opportunity, we wax eloquent about how wonderful our cars are.

Honest, this is how my mind works. And I am not being at all sarcastic.

Years and Years of fight, and finally you summed up so well. What can I say further, keep going. Wish you best of luck.

Originally Posted by jyobeb

I own a 99 Sienna. I feel no difference in the quality of sheet metal or in the thickness of the A pillar (Which actually calls for a whole new design and jigs)
The door thunks shut the same way and feels as solid as the Sienna.
I do not care either way for maruti or Fiat, but irrelevent banter which is inaacurate, is not done.
Also smileys such as seem to be a fad these days.

I just gave my opinion of that particular peice from fiat. after driving and enjoying a Fiat 1.2 for 2 years, i went to RF motors with high hopes. i have been waiting for the MJD for years and I was let down. what do i gain by bashing a company and car that I love so much?

the A pillar is definitely thinner. that explains the markedly improved forward visibilty from my older 1.2 palio.

Originally Posted by condor

@ripper, that was a nice way to compare the three cars. But I'll take most of what you have said with a pinch of salt. Reason : your disclaimer.

You have ended up comparing a car that you are comfortable with (atleast currently) with two others that you expereinced a TD on. And like you have said, using a TD car to get a feel of the car is a bad idea.

I agree whole heartedly condor!

but the thing is, the indica does everything as well as the FIAT, except giving feel and fun, but it is still run down by members in our forum. that is not fair.

Originally Posted by PatienceWins

@rippergo: We are just sharing our opinions in this wonderful forum and opinions do differ. I will be the last person to give death threat for sharing opinions of a car. Its afterall just a car.

I know PW, just trying to lighten the mood. dont want to make any enemies here.

Originally Posted by Ajay_J

@Ripper, Good job. I too believe that now INDICA is emerging as a VFM winner. And V3 is going to kill all the debates. Amen.

@ET, I do not think that Swift's steering lacks feedback. It infact gives excellent feedback. But its more of video game like response hence mistaken as "lacking feedback" by the people graduating from HPS to EPS.

True-it does give a videogame kind of feel. some people like it, somepeople dont. but the bottom line is, it tell you what the car is upto.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

You are contracdicting yourself!
So a Palio steering is better than many sedans but not better than Swift... So can we conclude Swift has a better steering than most cars, this side BMW maybe.
Good on ya mate.... enjoy!

I'm not contradicting myself,I said, Swift>Palio>some sedans(my verna for example)

Originally Posted by prabuddhadg

About steering, I have driven the Swift at 100, and on a slightly undulating road it felt pretty vague and scary. On that same road, my Petra does not even remind me of the quality of the road. It is quite possible that some people can handle the Swift's steering and prefer that to the heavy feel of the Palio/Petra steering, but I just can't let the nice Palio steering feel be relegated against the Swift's. My opinion.

Prabuddha, thats the point.
on an undulating, poor surface, you are meant to be scared. the swift is letting you know whats happening. the palio isnt.
However both of them will hold the road well. its just that the swift is more talkative than the palio.(my opinion)

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Nice comparo and pretty fair too IMO, rippergeo.
Ofcourse, there is the possibility of a little bias creeping in, due to your owning the Swift, but then who can claim to be unbiased here ?

Only one question : Your comparo has the Swift and the Palio scoring on most of the factors, but in the end, you say that the Indica is the most VFM. If you were in the market today with these 3 choices available, would your buy be the Indica-Dicor ?

I'd still buy the swift D because it is fun.
but if I was looking at a practical buy, It would be the indica.

Originally Posted by MADMAX111

I agree with ripper regarding build quality of Palio. I have driven my friend's Palio1.2 earlier(2003 model) and recently test driven Palio MJD. The MJD build quality is definetly lower in terms of sheet metal etc and except outside looks I did not find the car outstanding in any aspect.
I think my views are unbiased as I dont own either Palio, Swift or Indica. I left Swift out of my buying decision due to less sapce at rear and tinny metal and rattles. Was opting for Palio but the TD definetly ruled it out. Like I said earlier Nothing Outstanding except looks.

thanks for backing me up, madmax.
i never said the palio MJD is bad. just that the competition is better.
even its older avatars are better. that is worrying.

Originally Posted by prabuddhadg

You know what, we Fiat owners went ahead and bought our Fiats in the face of such opposition that we feel we are the real car enthusiasts and others who drive mainstream cars are not enthusiasts like we are.

So, we feel, (and to some extent we are right) that people do not really know the worth of our Fiats. So, given a hint of an opportunity, we wax eloquent about how wonderful our cars are.

Honest, this is how my mind works. And I am not being at all sarcastic.

I'm one of them too.atleast I was.

I picked up the 1st Fiat 1.2 in cochin when it was launched, even without a TD. thats how much of a believer i was.
now i find it increasingly difficult to defend FIAT.


before I get an infraction for turning a simple TD thread into a comparo bloodbath, I'll stop.
No more comparos on this thread from me. I'm willing to take it elsewhere though.

[shebin]

Guys i dont know much about eps and hs.But its true that swift felt scary at high speeds.In city its silk smooth but as the speed increases you dont get the required feed back and you feel diffident(stock tyres here)....I ahve pushed my TDI indigo above 150 on average roads and frankly i never felt scared.the car vas very composed.There i really appreciate tata.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

chill torque yaar. chidranveshan se khya.everyone's entitled to their subjective judgements!

Hita subjectives judgements are OK not gross mistakes. For someone reading this thread as reference it will give him/her wrong information.
Some of the statements are just gross if you think about it:
1) "The A piller definitely thinner".... It warrants the change in die that casts it, calling for major expense. I can bet there's no change in the A pillar.
2) Sheet metal is thinner... again the die will need to be changed for this, again a very major expense. Besides the car weighs exactly the same, the difference in the older 1.2 and the 1.1 weight is due to the smaller engine in the stile and not the thinner sheet metal. I have driven the MJD and door still close with that reassuring thunk. Even magazines who have driven the car say the same.
3) I havent come across any EPS system in a car which is better than a hydraulic system. EPS is definetly lighter which would help in parking and taking U turns but thats about it.

Whatever be the opinions, we can definitely have a discussion and that is how I am taking it.