[man_of_steel]

Originally Posted by h@r$h@l

Feel bad for it and hence thinking selling it off to some one who would enjoy it more than my drive way

Heart felt respect for that brother. Not sure about the price though! Experts can pitch in.

[shan2129]

Originally Posted by man_of_steel

shan2129, there is one thing I forgot to ask. Is the missing present all the time? Or is the bike running fine sometimes and then suddenly the missing happens?

Next time when the missing happens,
Stop the bike. Open the fuel tank lid for a few seconds and put it back. And then check if the bike is running fine.

No its not present all the time. Sometimes when I upshift or downshift and twist the throttle, I experience the missing & that too is not that often. Will try what you suggested.

Update:
I got my TB checked at the Service station & they found that one of the breather pipes attached to the fuel tank was not working properly. So they did something to it and assured me that now I won't face the missing problem. Will have to check if its working now.

A general question

All the 500cc owners, in a non-highway scenario, if my bike is doing 100 without a problem, but does not attain 120 or near speeds, is it ok ?

I know this might sound like a silly question, but am curious :(

[ArizonaJim]

shan2129

I'm not sure which 500cc engine you have but, about adjusting valves on a Royal Enfield:

The old Iron Barrel and the AVL Lean Burn engine both have adjustable pushrods which activate the valves. These do require adjustment from time to time and failing to do this adjustment can lead to ticking/tapping sounds coming from the engines valves. Failing to do the necessary adjustment can cause damage to the valve stem caps, the rocker arms and the pushrods.

The new UCE engines use hydraulic valve lifters which require no adjustment.
As no adjustment is required the push rods are solid, non-adjustable items. There is also nothing on the rocker arms to adjust.

If the hydraulic valve lifters fail (which almost never happens) or if they do not receive the necessary oil pressure to keep them pumped up they will create a clatter that is so loud no one in their right mind would allow the engine to continue to run.

This "low oil pressure" condition could be caused by a lack of oil in the engine or a failure of the oil pump drive gear.
It also could be caused if the right side cover for the engine has been removed and replaced by someone using a thick layer of paste like gasket material.

Excessive gasket sealing pastes can block the oil transfer hole running between the sidecover and the engine case. If the transfer hole is blocked, oil will not be able to get to the hydraulic valve lifters or to the rocker arms.

Putting all of this into a nutshell, if you have one of the older engines, have your mechanic look at and adjust the valve clearance.
If you have the new UCE engine, tell your mechanic the valves and rocker arm clearance cannot be adjusted.

IMO, the Royal Enfield AVL and UCE 500cc motorcycles should have no problem riding at speeds of 110 kmph on a level surface.
If it doesn't, the first thing I would check is the condition of the air filter.
If it is dirty or at all oily the air restriction thru it can keep the engine from developing its peak power.
The paper air filters used in these machines cannot be washed but using high pressure air to blow the dust/dirt out of them can help a bit.
If the filter paper is contaminated with oil (from the engine crankcase vent) the only solution is to replace it with a new filter.

[shan2129]

Originally Posted by ArizonaJim

shan2129

I'm not sure which 500cc engine you have but, about adjusting valves on a Royal Enfield:

The old Iron Barrel and the AVL Lean Burn engine both have adjustable pushrods which activate the valves. These do require adjustment from time to time and failing to do this adjustment can lead to ticking/tapping sounds coming from the engines valves. Failing to do the necessary adjustment can cause damage to the valve stem caps, the rocker arms and the pushrods.

The new UCE engines use hydraulic valve lifters which require no adjustment.
As no adjustment is required the push rods are solid, non-adjustable items. There is also nothing on the rocker arms to adjust.

If the hydraulic valve lifters fail (which almost never happens) or if they do not receive the necessary oil pressure to keep them pumped up they will create a clatter that is so loud no one in their right mind would allow the engine to continue to run.

This "low oil pressure" condition could be caused by a lack of oil in the engine or a failure of the oil pump drive gear.
It also could be caused if the right side cover for the engine has been removed and replaced by someone using a thick layer of paste like gasket material.

Excessive gasket sealing pastes can block the oil transfer hole running between the sidecover and the engine case. If the transfer hole is blocked, oil will not be able to get to the hydraulic valve lifters or to the rocker arms.

Putting all of this into a nutshell, if you have one of the older engines, have your mechanic look at and adjust the valve clearance.
If you have the new UCE engine, tell your mechanic the valves and rocker arm clearance cannot be adjusted.

IMO, the Royal Enfield AVL and UCE 500cc motorcycles should have no problem riding at speeds of 110 kmph on a level surface.
If it doesn't, the first thing I would check is the condition of the air filter.
If it is dirty or at all oily the air restriction thru it can keep the engine from developing its peak power.
The paper air filters used in these machines cannot be washed but using high pressure air to blow the dust/dirt out of them can help a bit.
If the filter paper is contaminated with oil (from the engine crankcase vent) the only solution is to replace it with a new filter.

Hey,

I have the new UCE 500 engine in Thunderbird 500. I have a fair idea about the engine and know that these engines have hydraulic tappets, but the mechanic is inclined that he can open up the overhead covers and can adjust the tappets & rockers. I have not allowed him to do that, but he said, they have the proper training to adjust the hydraulic tappets.

The Mechanic did take out the air filter and cleaned it with compressed air. As these machines ( Thunderbird 500 ) has a Sealed case in which the air filter sits and this case has just one air duct to let air in and the other one behind the air filter to circulate clean air to the intake manifold.

The unit has not been opened & closed with a paste. As my Machine is just 5k kms ( 1.4 years ) old, nothing has really been changed.

For some reason, I am experiencing a loss in power. My TB500 is reaching 100 on an inclined surface at 3000 - 3200 rpm. If this figure is acceptable, I would consider myself a happy man

[ArizonaJim]

I'll just repeat, there is no way to adjust the valves in the UCE engine.
There is nothing to turn, remove or replace that will change the valve lash.

I've personally been into the overhead covers which was needed to stop a minor oil seepage past the cover seal so I am speaking from first hand experience.

While I'm mentioning the oil seepage, I first noticed a very light coating of oil on the cylinders upper fins. I couldn't see exactly where it was coming from but the edge of the seal between the valve cover and the top of the cylinder looked wet so I removed the fuel tank and then, both valve covers.

In doing this, I found that the socket head bolts that hold the covers in place are "shoulder bolts". Bolts of this type screw into the mating part and come to a stop as an enlarged area of the bolt shank above the threads hits the surface.

Trying to tighten these bolts more to stop a leak is useless. Once their shoulder stops on whatever they are being screwed into, further tightening will do nothing except to break the bolt off.

The "gasket" under the valve covers is a somewhat thick piece of plastic with a pre-formed rubber seal built into it. On my RE, the rubber was sealing but not as tightly as it should. (This was after 1 1/2 years and 8,000 miles (13000km) of riding.)

After a very light coating of Permatix Ultra-Black, a silicone rubber that is specially formulated to resist oil and to provide a tight sealing surface, and replacing the covers, bolts and fuel tank I haven't had a bit of a problem with oil in this area.

Getting back to the 100 kmph speed issue, if the air filter has been blown out as you say, I would replace the spark plug, make sure my rear wheels drive chain was well lubricated and check the air pressure in the tyres. Speeds of 120 kmph should be easy for your motorcycle unless you weigh over 115 kg.

[shan2129]

Originally Posted by ArizonaJim

I'll just repeat, there is no way to adjust the valves in the UCE engine.
There is nothing to turn, remove or replace that will change the valve lash.

I've personally been into the overhead covers which was needed to stop a minor oil seepage past the cover seal so I am speaking from first hand experience.

While I'm mentioning the oil seepage, I first noticed a very light coating of oil on the cylinders upper fins. I couldn't see exactly where it was coming from but the edge of the seal between the valve cover and the top of the cylinder looked wet so I removed the fuel tank and then, both valve covers.

In doing this, I found that the socket head bolts that hold the covers in place are "shoulder bolts". Bolts of this type screw into the mating part and come to a stop as an enlarged area of the bolt shank above the threads hits the surface.

Trying to tighten these bolts more to stop a leak is useless. Once their shoulder stops on whatever they are being screwed into, further tightening will do nothing except to break the bolt off.

The "gasket" under the valve covers is a somewhat thick piece of plastic with a pre-formed rubber seal built into it. On my RE, the rubber was sealing but not as tightly as it should. (This was after 1 1/2 years and 8,000 miles (13000km) of riding.)

After a very light coating of Permatix Ultra-Black, a silicone rubber that is specially formulated to resist oil and to provide a tight sealing surface, and replacing the covers, bolts and fuel tank I haven't had a bit of a problem with oil in this area.

Getting back to the 100 kmph speed issue, if the air filter has been blown out as you say, I would replace the spark plug, make sure my rear wheels drive chain was well lubricated and check the air pressure in the tyres. Speeds of 120 kmph should be easy for your motorcycle unless you weigh over 115 kg.

I cleared the whole thing with the RE service engineer & he said that what the mechanic wanted to do, was, that he wanted to adjust the cams & nothing else. He said, that, by adjusting the Cams, he will be able to reduce the overall engine noise. I declined his offer, as the noise is very less when compared to other 500CC engines I compared mine with.

Regarding the Top speed mark. I again visited a freeway & attained 130 kmph easily. So, it seems like the EURO II pipe was the culprit behind everything. A lesson for me & something RE QC should work on.

Thanks ArizonaJim & man_of_steel

[man_of_steel]

Originally Posted by shan2129

Regarding the Top speed mark. I again visited a freeway & attained 130 kmph easily. So, it seems like the EURO II pipe was the culprit behind everything. A lesson for me & something RE QC should work on.

Thanks ArizonaJim & man_of_steel

Welcome, but I still don't think that euro2 pipe would cause that engine miss. Did the mechanic change the 'breather pipe' in fuel tank as you mentioned?

[shan2129]

Originally Posted by man_of_steel

Welcome, but I still don't think that euro2 pipe would cause that engine miss. Did the mechanic change the 'breather pipe' in fuel tank as you mentioned?

So, something weird happened. My TB started missing today & I did as you said ( opened the Gas tank lid & closed it back ) & the missing completely vanished.

Mechanic did change the breather pipe that day. So, what do I do know ?

[man_of_steel]

Originally Posted by shan2129

So, something weird happened. My TB started missing today & I did as you said ( opened the Gas tank lid & closed it back ) & the missing completely vanished.

Mechanic did change the breather pipe that day. So, what do I do know ?

Thought so! Let me explain you why.

The culprit here is a faulty fuel tank lid. Sometimes the rubber bushings inside the lid will misplace and will lock the top of the fuel tank like an airtight container's cap. Ideally a fuel lid should have small opening to allow air inside. Now what is happening with an airtight lid is similar to a straw being dipped in water and taken out with the top end closed with a finger. Water will stay in the straw since the other end is closed and air won't be able to enter the straw to replace the water. Same thing is happening here too! A vacuum(not sure if its the exact term) was created inside the fuel tank as no air is able to enter the fuel tank which prevents the fuel from getting inside the fuel pump located at the base of the tank. Now when you open the fuel lid the vacuum vanishes as fresh air fills in. Just like you release the thump from the straw.

Now the Remedy? Simple. Get the faulty fuel lid changed under warranty. Make sure they change the whole key set of the bike.

How do I know? My friend's brand new TB350 had the exact same issue. Only difference is it took about 2 months to figure this out!

PS: I don't think there is an extra breather pipe for fuel tank.

[shan2129]

Originally Posted by man_of_steel

Now the Remedy? Simple. Get the faulty fuel lid changed under warranty. Make sure they change the whole key set of the bike.

How do I know? My friend's brand new TB350 had the exact same issue. Only difference is it took about 2 months to figure this out!

PS: I don't think there is an extra breather pipe for fuel tank.

Awesome explanation Thanks, really. I get what is happening. The only problem is that my TB is out of warranty now. Bought it back in Dec 2012.

The only ray of hope I see is that RE changed my Color kit about 2-3 months back & also changed the Fuel lid at that time. Now, when I recall, that was the time when this problem started. The Service Engineer promised me 6 months additional warranty on all the parts changed. So, have sent an email to RE. Let's see what happens.

I really appreciate your troubleshooting with me.

[man_of_steel]

Originally Posted by shan2129

Awesome explanation Thanks, really. I get what is happening. The only problem is that my TB is out of warranty now. Bought it back in Dec 2012.

The only ray of hope I see is that RE changed my Color kit about 2-3 months back & also changed the Fuel lid at that time. Now, when I recall, that was the time when this problem started. The Service Engineer promised me 6 months additional warranty on all the parts changed. So, have sent an email to RE. Let's see what happens.

I really appreciate your troubleshooting with me.

Pester them to get it changed ASAP. Till that time stop and open the tank lid at the very first hint of missing.

Another thing I would like to point out here is that this incident have deprived the fuel pump of fuel for a considerably long time. And running any sort of fluid pump (be it fuel or water or oil) without its fluid will cause the pump to burn as the fluid is what keeps the pump cool. That's precisely why all FI bikes recommend a minimum quantity of fuel every time whereas you can run a carb fed bike bone dry.

And I am feeling pissed off on the fact that the ASC guys should have been able to trouble shoot and fix this problem long before this as this is a common problem with the new TB (One of my old mechanics running an Authorised RE SVC confirmed this). That brings me to a simple question, if a guy like me with absolutely no education in mechanical engineering can remember this problem's simple cause. What the hell are these guys paid to do?

[shan2129]

Originally Posted by man_of_steel

Pester them to get it changed ASAP. Till that time stop and open the tank lid at the very first hint of missing.

Just heard back from Mr. Ramalingam ( customer care ). He has forwarded my case to the local TSM & according to the email, the problem will be taken care of.

Another thing I would like to point out here is that this incident have deprived the fuel pump of fuel for a considerably long time. And running any sort of fluid pump (be it fuel or water or oil) without its fluid will cause the pump to burn as the fluid is what keeps the pump cool. That's precisely why all FI bikes recommend a minimum quantity of fuel every time whereas you can run a carb fed bike bone dry.

7 ltrs. to be precise. I noticed something, I filled my tank with 15 ltrs. of fuel & from that time I haven't had one instance of missing. Is it possible that the fuel pump has suffered some damage from this missing thing that's going on from the last three months. Greater quantity of fuel might be keeping it extra cool ?

And I am feeling pissed off on the fact that the ASC guys should have been able to trouble shoot and fix this problem long before this as this is a common problem with the new TB (One of my old mechanics running an Authorised RE SVC confirmed this). That brings me to a simple question, if a guy like me with absolutely no education in mechanical engineering can remember this problem's simple cause. What the hell are these guys paid to do?

Exactly, nobody there. Nobody in the whole service region had any idea about a documented problem. Some companies would have recalled all their bike for this reason alone. RE QC is non-existent. I asked the ASM, TSM & both of them refuted that there is something wrong with the fuel lid.

I have warned them & have demanded a solution asap. Thanks

[man_of_steel]

Originally Posted by shan2129

7 ltrs. to be precise. I noticed something, I filled my tank with 15 ltrs. of fuel & from that time I haven't had one instance of missing. Is it possible that the fuel pump has suffered some damage from this missing thing that's going on from the last three months. Greater quantity of fuel might be keeping it extra cool ?

No extra fuel wont keep the pump extra cool. It is the petrol it pumps that keeps it cool. So all the time there should be enough fuel to keep the pump from running dry. 7L is the suggested minimum quantity as per manual?

Cant say for sure whether the pump might have suffered any damages or not. Lets hope it has'nt. But theoretically running in low fuel is not advised due to the reason mentioned above, which is almost the similar case.

[shan2129]

Originally Posted by man_of_steel

No extra fuel wont keep the pump extra cool. It is the petrol it pumps that keeps it cool. So all the time there should be enough fuel to keep the pump from running dry. 7L is the suggested minimum quantity as per manual?

Cant say for sure whether the pump might have suffered any damages or not. Lets hope it has'nt. But theoretically running in low fuel is not advised due to the reason mentioned above, which is almost the similar case.

Yes, the UCE service manual says at least 7 ltrs. should be kept in the tank at all times.

The worst part is that the fuel pump costs nearly 10k :( so, I really hope its not damaged

[nasirkaka]

Some updates on my C5:

got the engine re-built. Installed Wossner 535cc forged piston & corresponding cylinder kit on to the bike. Got a mikuni TM 32 mm flat slide carb installed. UNI pod filter and a custom made exhaust. After some initial days of trying to tweak and tune the carb with various jetting, its reached a decent stage. get a very good feel of torque. So far happy but ofcourse there is more to be extracted from that carb.
Some more mods in the pipeline like installing a box section aluminium swing arm, custom made rear sprocket, etc and the bike should be even better to ride.