[locusjag]

Ran across this old video of our Mirage 2000s hitting Pakistani positions with laser guided munitions:

https://youtu.be/qoGqRiIKXk4

Skip to the 3 minute mark for actual cockpit footage of the bombing. Skip to 3:48 to see the Pakistanis scurrying for cover before they were toast.

[locusjag]

I fear to share anything about the ongoing war and info war with Pakistan these days. My previous update here on tracking the F-16 which supposedly crashed was fake. But even so, I am emotional about what's going on right now. I don't like it when assorted people question the word of our armed forces. I'd like to think that if they said they hit something, they actually hit it.

Calling on experts to certify the following theory from a Twitter user: https://twitter.com/i/status/1103225912571711488

The above link has a demo video of a Spice 2000 bomb in action.

Going one step further, it is being said that the IAF had in fact used a pellet-filled, low-explosive variant to minimize civilian collateral damage:


I understand that the IAF has used this same variant during an exercise in 2016, where the target had a punched hole and didn't implode upon impact:


NDTV journalist Vishnu Som had in fact shared this same pic after the exercise had concluded in 2016, I hear.

Does this comprise proof that the IAF didn't miss, just because Reuters found the structures still standing? Or if you want to say that I should mind my own business, I probably should! I'm in way over my head and am too worked up about this for my own good!!

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by locusjag

I fear to share anything about the ongoing war and info war with Pakistan these days. My previous update here on tracking the F-16 which supposedly crashed was fake. ...

Mate, no amount of shouting and jingoism is going to make our Services/GoI come out and show proof. Our adversaries have this habit of playing pschy Ops. The proof has/was already shown to people of importance and these are information reserved for selected eyes only. I for one, trust the capabilities of our forces fully. Also, showing such proof might give away some of our operational capabilities which I am sure we don't wan.

On the whole this seems to be a collective scam of one family to shame and derail the progress. I am no supporter of any particular party or person.

Coming back to details, yes the spice 2000 is a bunker buster (basically) and will not bring down buildings. Hypothetically, we would have seen the same results had we used bramhos!! These are precision munitions used to avoid collateral or civilian casualities.

We are not uncle SAM to use carpet bombs or napalm!!

[Nomad_Wind]

Originally Posted by locusjag

Ran across this old video of our Mirage 2000s hitting Pakistani positions with laser guided munitions:

Skip to the 3 minute mark for actual cockpit footage of the bombing. Skip to 3:48 to see the Pakistanis scurrying for cover before they were toast.

What an eye opening find! War is a bloody affair. Those aren't pixels in a video game, they're actual people. I would recommend members to watch the Ethan Hawk movie "Good Kill". Really changed my outlook on a lot of things.

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by AlphaKilo

Mate, no amount of shouting and jingoism is going to make our Services/GoI come out and show proof. Our adversaries have this habit of playing pschy Ops. Also, showing such proof might give away some of our operational capabilities which I am sure we don't wan.

You're right. In some cases, to provide proof is to play the adversary's game.

In any case, I noticed your signature line (again) and I guess I need to go into a zen-like mental state in which not every stimulus requires a motor reaction. Indeed, if truth requires evidence, does it not mean that it's a sorry state of affairs?

Originally Posted by Nomad_Wind

What an eye opening find! War is a bloody affair. Those aren't pixels in a video game, they're actual people.

Sadly so, yes. Those were a mish-mash of Pakistani Northern Light Infantry personnel and assorted mujahedin types, who had no business being on Indian soil and definitely had no business waging war on us. Sorry for my passive-aggression here but I feel stretched with whatever's going on in our politics...

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by locusjag

You're right. In some cases, to provide proof is to play the adversary's game.

Not wanting to hijack the main intention of this thread.

https://myind.net/Home/viewArticle/t...on-february-26


https://www.indiatoday.in/programme/...749-2019-03-06

Is a summation of all the information and "proof" (logical explanations). Be prepared for some political storm while watching the video.

Originally Posted by locusjag

In any case, I noticed your signature line (again) and I guess I need to go into a zen-like mental state in which not every stimulus requires a motor reaction. Indeed, if truth requires evidence, does it not mean that it's a sorry state of affairs?

Sarcasm or you mean it seriously?

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by AlphaKilo

https://myind.net/Home/viewArticle/t...on-february-26

https://www.indiatoday.in/programme/...749-2019-03-06

Thanks! Both URLs provide a lot of evidence. And they contain confirmations from Shiv Aroor and Vishnu Som - both being credible people in defence matters.

Sarcasm or you mean it seriously?

Of course I meant it seriously! I have always found your signature to be rather profound. Every time I see it here on your posts, I stop whatever I'm doing and go into deep, related thoughts. I mean, "if truth requires evidence, what will evidence the evidence?"...damn!

[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by AlphaKilo

Mate, no amount of shouting and jingoism is going to make our Services/GoI come out and show proof. Our adversaries have this habit of playing pschy Ops. The proof has/was already shown to people of importance and these are information reserved for selected eyes only. I for one, trust the capabilities of our forces fully. Also, showing such proof might give away some of our operational capabilities which I am sure we don't wan.

A couple of pointers:
1. The proof of the strikes should be with the present day Govt and I don't think it's upto the Forces to present it to media/people
2. The notion that our Forces cannot be questioned is another form of jingoism
3. We should be thankful that our Forces are answerable to people (indirectly through the Parliament), look at what's happened in Pakistan; where the Army virtually rules the country
4. However, the trust that the Forces have in this country is far superior to almost anything in this country, so when the Forces say, they've done something, people will always believe them.
5. The Forces never came up with a figure of casualties, those were propagated by the friendly media houses of the Govt, later high raking Govt officials started quoting numbers of 350-400
6. In conjunction to the above, when international agencies start refuting and doubting even the success of the air-strikes, then whose image do you think is down the drain? The Govt? Nope, no Govt. ever has had the credibility of the Forces, neither they will unfortunately.
7. In that sense, I am sure the Govt. will come out with the proof, just before the campaigning stops for National Elections, because as like everything, even the bravado and the death of our Armed Forces have always been used for Political gains.

Other than above:
Why are politicians and media houses belittling the current warplanes we have? Yes, these are old and no match for the Rafales we are procuring but, a MiG 21 Bison, from what I am made to understand can hold its own against an F16. Could someone explain this to me? Separate the wheat from the chaff please.

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by pratyush6

A couple of pointers:
...
Other than above:
Why are politicians and media houses belittling the current warplanes we have? Yes, these are old and no match for the Rafales we are procuring but, a MiG 21 Bison, from what I am made to understand can hold its own against an F16. Could someone explain this to me? Separate the wheat from the chaff please.

My point of view (listed as per your questions):

1. Already done by the forces. As reported in the news, COAS presented the proof to PMO.

2. The discussion here is not about notion, it is about the integrity. Further, how do you expect secret operational details to be revealed in the public? what were we asking before the era of social media? Do you believe that back then our forces were not carrying out such operations?

3. There is no discussion here on absolute supremacy of the forces. We are a democracy and the "Defence services" are there to serve and protect the nation.

4. No. You are the best example. This country also gives the freedom to question and no one is stopping you or me from doing such a thing.

5/6. Who are conducting the operations for? To show to international media or reduce terrorism?

7. +1.

As mentioned several times here, the BISON is a potent bird but the airframe is almost 65 years old. It cannot hold a candle against modern BVR warfare. This time it was all due to the skill of the pilot flying and the missile he had at his disposal that got him the score. In the due course he lost his machine too. End of the day this itself proves that the bird is good but old.

Older birds have extremely high maintenance and poor serviceability. Hence, the need for modern, maintenance "free" birds.

[V.Narayan]

Gentlemen, a gentle request from an old bird. If our politicians wish to play dirty with this commendable military action we can't stop them. But let us, the members of this august forum, not get into this 'show me proof' sort of argument. The IAF is hardly likely to share what high resolution photos it has or what intelligence reports it had of activities at B. Nor is the IAF given, seeing it's 85 year track, to claiming hits that were not achieved. The IAF would not have told the PMO 'mission accomplished' till it, the IAF, was sure itself. That is simply the way it operates as it has no popularity contest to win. Question for some of our politicians and social media pundits- did you ask USA for proof of OBL being knocked off?

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

If our politicians wish to play dirty with this commendable military action we can't stop them. Question for some of our politicians and social media pundits- did you ask USA for proof of OBL being knocked off?

Situation here in India and across the border:

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Gentlemen, a gentle request from an old bird. If our politicians wish to play dirty with this commendable military action we can't stop them. But let us, the members of this august forum, not get into this 'show me proof' sort of argument. The IAF is hardly likely to share what high resolution photos it has or what intelligence reports it had of activities at B. Nor is the IAF given, seeing it's 85 year track, to claiming hits that were not achieved. The IAF would not have told the PMO 'mission accomplished' till it, the IAF, was sure itself. That is simply the way it operates as it has no popularity contest to win. Question for some of our politicians and social media pundits- did you ask USA for proof of OBL being knocked off?

Well said Sir!!! As the IAF chief came out openly and said that they struck the intended target(s), I feel it must be believed.

But I do feel that the ones asking for proof, especially the politically neutral citizens, do not have mean ill towards the armed forces, just that they are eager to know the truth.

Mind you, if a politician supports or questions the airstrike, it is mostly for political gains, with elections around the corner. As the saying goes Patriotism is the LAST resort of the scoundrel and each one of them uses patriotism as a tool to silence opponents in the game of political one-upmanship.

It is always better to stay well clear of politics, domestic or international, as there are varied opinions about an event or ideology, rightness of which no one has the authority to decide. Let the political play the dirty game, let us civilians show respect towards each other's opinions because we know each one of us is a patriot having the greatest respect for the armed forces, inspite of our different points of view.

Originally Posted by pratyush6

Why are politicians and media houses belittling the current warplanes we have? Yes, these are old and no match for the Rafales we are procuring but, a MiG 21 Bison, from what I am made to understand can hold its own against an F16. Could someone explain this to me? Separate the wheat from the chaff please.

Yeah well, when someone one behalf of the govt openly said in the court and which loosely meant - If we do no get Rafale, what else do we fight Pakistan with? One can argue that these sort of desperate and stupid statements further malign the image of the legendary of the MiG-21 and probably the IAF as well. Agreed the MiG-21 Bison may not be the right match for the F-16, but with its upgraded radar, weapons and ECM, it can give modern fighters a run for their money. The fact that Wg Cdr Abhinandan got with visual range of the PAF fighters shows good the MiG-21 Bison still is is in the hands of a skilled pilot. One can openly ask the fellow who made that pathetic statement in court - what are the Upgraded MiG-29s, Mirage 2000s and Su-30s for, if not to fight the Pakistanis(new F-16s)?

As I said earlier, its a dirty political game being played here and it is best to avoid discussing the political aspects of this issue.

Meanwhile....

‘Visual. And Locked’: Abhinandan’s Last Radio Call Before He Fired F-16 ‘Kill Shot’

Visual. And locked. That was the final radio call from IAF pilot Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman’s MiG-21 Bison before he pushed a button on his stick, letting loose the only weapon fired by the eight Indian jets in the air at the time. The weapon he fired, a Vympel R-73, was seen hitting the jet he was pursuing across the Line of Control. His own radar warning receiver was blaring by this time, and while he said to have attempted countermeasures to ‘go cold’, his aircraft was struck by what is believed to be an AIM-20 AMRAAM missile, bringing him and his jet down across the Line of Control in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

The word ‘visual’ is, interestingly, US Air Force pilot-speak for ‘friendly aircraft in sight’, as opposed to ‘tally’, which denotes an enemy aircraft in visual range.

Livefist has had a chance to review select debrief data and speak with IAF officers familiar with the unprecedented aerial face-off on the morning of February 27.

On the morning of February 27 — a day after Indian air strikes in Balakot, Pakistan — the Indian Air Force had two standing combat air patrols in the Jammu & Kashmir area — a pair of upgraded Mirage 2000s and two Su-30 MKIs, along with a Netra airborne early warning and control jet and a Phalcon AWACS keeping watch. The initial ‘pick-up’ of the approaching Pakistan Air Force fighter package was by ground radars. The inbound force was a large one, comprising at least 24 PAF jets in separate loose formations. Among the jets were at least three Dassault Mirage III aircraft armed with strike weapons. When the formation crossed from Pakistan in airspace over PoK, the Indian Air Force scrambled six MiG-21 Bison interceptors — three from Srinagar and three from Avantipora.

The Pakistani jets were inbound from a west-south westerly direction. A very loose mixed formation of Mirage IIIs deployed H-4 stand-off precision guided glide bombs with penetrator warheads at Indian military installations in the Rajouri sector with some of them hitting military land, but not causing any damage to structures or establishment buildings. Livefist has had a chance to review photographs of the weapon remnants recovered on the Indian side, including the starboard fin section of an H-4 bomb bearing the serial number ‘P695’. The photographs, apparently refuting Pakistani claims that their strikes were deliberately mis-aimed only to send India a counter-message after the Balakot strikes, are part of an Indian Air Force dossier of the day’s proceedings that will be submitted to the government this week. The IAF’s official conclusion in this dossier is that the H-4 bombs were deployed specifically to cause damage.

As the stand-off strikes took place, an air-to-air battle commenced with the two Indian Su-30s reporting (in their debrief) repeated radar locks from the Pakistani F-16s beyond visual range, and manoeuvering in the air to turn ‘cold’ on the weapon locks. IAF sources indicated to Livefist that the F-16s were looking specifically to shoot down a Su-30 — something that would have been a major loss for the IAF. The Su-30s (and later, three of the MiG-21s) are said to have flown patterns to remain ‘kinematically safe’ against the repeated AMRAAM locks even as the distance between the Indian and Pakistani jets loosely closed over the Line of Control. The hot-cold radar lock sequence continued for several minutes, with the PAF F-16s repeatedly attempting to sustain locks on the Su-30 MKIs long enough for meaningful shots. Sources say the three AMRAAMs were launched in DMAX-1, the dynamic attack zone where the missile is unleashed at the limits of its range. On all three occasions, the Su-30s used countermeasures to dodge the incoming weapons.

While the other jets, including the Mirage 2000s also recorded locks on them from the F-16s, Wing Commander Abhinandan’s MiG-21 out front was also ‘hot’ on an AMRAAM. However, he was now fully within visual range of an F-16 that was turning away to speed back towards Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. Livefist has been given to understand that Wing Commander responded to two warnings from radar controllers to turn back (since he was minutes from crossing into hostile airspace) with radar calls saying he had an aircraft in visual range and was attempting a manual lock. Moments later, with his lock confirmed, he gave a final call saying he had the lock tone, before launching a single R-73 close combat missile. The pilot would later record in a debriefing that he saw his missile hit the retreating F-16 in the port rear section and that it was brought down. Moments later, as Wing Commander Abhinandan initiated evasive maneouvers to defeat the incoming AMRAAM, the missile struck his MiG-21, forcing the pilot to punch out.

The R-73 fired by Wing Commander Abhinandan was the only Indian weapon launched during the aerial engagement, leading the Indian Air Force to officially attribute the F-16 kill to him. None of the other jets launched weapons, likely because of a lack of target solutions. It is also likely that rules of engagement had been modified, though the IAF has refused to confirm or deny.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019...kill-shot.html

This information is claimed to be from IAF "Sources". But then many such accounts have been claimed to be told by IAF "Sources". I do hope one day a verified account is written about what exactly happened that day.


This is one more article that cropped up today. It is highly unlikely that such sensitive information from an AWACS will be shared.

IAF A-50 AEW&C Aircraft’s Israeli Radar could have recorded last week clash between Pakistan F-16’s and Indian Fighters

Indian Air Force (IAF) Beriev A-50 airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft featuring Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Elta Electronics Industries of Israel EL/W-2090 radar system could play a key role not only in establishing if Pakistan Air Force(PAK) used U.S. built F-16 fighter jets in Feb. 27 air engagements with Indian Air Force (IAF) over the Line of Control (LoC) but also if PAF lost one F-16B fighter jet to Indian Air Force’s Mig-21 Bison.

According to idrw.org, “a lone A-50 PHALCON AWACS flying well within Indian territory near state of Jammu and Kashmir was first to detect close to 24 PAF jets coming towards LOC. 3 F-16s before the LOC breach happened they were warned by IAF which they chose to ignore and invading aircraft entered nearly 3kms inside the Indian side of LOC and tried to target key Indian military installations but due to early detection close to six more IAF jets were scrambled and were already in the air.

“The whole sequence of events from their takeoffs from their forward base till the time they flew back to their base was recorded by the powerful Israeli Radar in the sky. F-16 going down and Mig-21 which was also later shot down was also recorded by the Airborne system which will be playing a key role in establishing facts of the whole sequence of events which took place that day.

“Indian officials have already submitted this key Electronic Radar Recordings of the F-16 breaching LOC and one being shot down with American interlocutors who will be sharing the same with US Administration. Pentagon is likely to study the evidence provided by the Indian side with Israeli help to establish facts and come to a conclusion. What will the US Administration do with the evidence is not clearly known yet but it is likely will create pressure on Pakistani military establishment to come clean or facesanctions.”

As we have already explained Pakistan and India both carried out aerial bombing missions last week, including a clash on Feb. 27, that saw an Indian pilot shot down over the disputed region of Kashmir in an incident that alarmed global powers and sparked fears of a war.

A Pakistan military spokesman told reporters on Feb. 27 that Pakistani jets “locked” on Indian targets to demonstrate Pakistan’s capacity to strike back at India, but then chose to fire in an empty field where there would be no casualties.

Pakistan said its mission on Feb. 27 was in retaliation for India violating its airspace and sovereignty a day earlier, when Indian Mirage 2000 fighter jets bombed a forest area near the northern city of Balakot.

India said it struck at militant training camps, but Islamabad denied any such camps existed, as did some villagers in the area. The fresh anti-militancy drive was launched after a Kashmiri suicide bomber, a member of Pakistan-based Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) terrorist group, killed 40 Indian paramilitary police on Feb. 14.

The U.S. Embassy in Islamabad said on Mar. 3 that it is investigating if Pakistan had used the F-16 fighter to shoot down an Indian MiG-21, potentially violating Washington’s military sale agreements that limit how Pakistan can use the planes, as the stand-off between the nuclear-armed Asian neighbors appeared to be easing.

While Pakistan has denied using F-16 jets during a dogfight that downed an Indian Mig-21 warplane over Kashmir on Feb. 27, it has not specified which planes it used, though it assembles Chinese-designed JF-17 fighter jets on its soil.

The last chapter (for now) of the saga has been written on Mar. 4 when a Pakistani drone was reportedly shot down by an IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter jet after being detected inside Indian Airspace, in Rajasthan’s Bikaner sector.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/iaf-...dian-fighters/

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

But let us, the members of this august forum, not get into this 'show me proof' sort of argument.

Sir, I don't think any of us were in an argument here to disprove it; I was rather seeking validation to rebut some social media pundits that I know who keep needling our armed forces and often they come ever so close to sullying their name. "Oh, the IAF is in cahoots with the XYZ party", "The PM has the remote control, the IAF will say whatever he tells them to say.."

Originally Posted by skanchan95

As the saying goes Patriotism is the LAST resort of the scoundrel

I know what you're trying to say, but that particular saying has to be the most misunderstood one ever!

Who said it originally? Samuel Johnson
What exactly did he say? “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.”
Who was he? A proud Anglican with a stiff upper lip, poet, playwright, essayist, moralist, literary critic, biographer, editor and lexicographer
When did he say it? 1775
What was the context? The occupants of Great Britain's colony in the North American continent were fighting a civil war with the empire and they would eventually go on to win independence from Britain in 1776. Samuel Johnson was derisive of the petulant colonists who dared defy the Crown and Great Britain. He wished explicitly for there to be "English superiority and American obedience"
Why we are wrong to keep quoting this saying - This saying keeps getting quoted out of context by people in many countries without knowing the context in which it was said originally and by whom. The oft-quoted saying seeks to tacitly imply that any cross-section of a group of patriots would reveal a number of scoundrels. There is no basis for this line of thinking and if anything, patriots only want what's best for the country, above all divisive lines.

Mods: I'll veer off-topic no more. Please grant me closure in this sordid episode by allowing this one post here. Thanks!

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by locusjag

Sir, I don't think any of us were in an argument here to disprove it

My post was not aimed at you or anyone else in particular. Having observed the manner in which these dialogues, on aviation, go off course and get filled with ill-informed cynicism I thought it prudent to offer a word of caution.

[Maveryq]

Reading about the impact of Netra on the air operations in Balakot, I was surprised at the effectiveness of such systems in several varied situations. Googled a bit to try and understand what all such systems have in terms of technologies.





Erieye System overview by SAAB. Somewhat similar to the one operated by India. This is the system that the Pakistani Air Force Operates.




http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...ive-on-forever


This article mentions the impact of the EA6 Prowler of the US Airforce, even on jamming IEDs in Afghanistan. Never thought that an ELINT aircraft could be used for such situations also.


Now that India is again seriously looking at procuring the battlefield management radars from Raytheon (ISTAR), it will be an important force addition.







Managing all these assets will need some serious data linking. Maybe that is where satellites like Rukmini could become invaluable.







Gradually, the armed forces seem to be modernising.



Picture source: Internet and graphic from Times of India.