[MileCruncher]

Folks,

Can someone please tell me whether the states intend to offer any subsidy on the E2O in terms of taxes like what the Delhi Govt has done. Also are there any subsidies / tax breaks for eco friendly vehicle like the E20.

Thanks

[hkollar]

Originally Posted by rock75

Many states have witnessed power cuts ranging from 8-14 hours esp in summers. And this myth about oil running out is false propaganda. Oil is not running out atleast not in our lifetime. In fact majority of the oil deposit may still not have been discovered!

If oil is running out so will coal, what will happen to thermal power stations?

For any technology to be sustainable, it has to be cheap to produce and sell, convenient to use and easily available everywhere. EVs fail at all these counts and they cannot replace the fuel run vehicles. Whatever vehicle takes hours to refill (Recharge)and then runs for only 100 kms at one go, requires access to a scarce resource with an uncertain supply (electricity)and costs Rs 8 lacs is destined to be a failure.

Power situation is indeed grim, largely because of ineffective planning and provisioning. But, It is an artificial scarcity. There is no real energy crisis in the world right now. US energy cost is about $0.0982/kwh, which is about Rs.5+/unit. So, if one is willing to pay Rs.6, we'll have mega corporations of the world coming in and establishing large power projects in India. It is stupid production & distribution policy that keeps us energy starved.

However, it is a philosophical discussion to speculate if oil deposits will run out or not, for no one has absolute proof. Neither does anyone have absolute, undeniable proof that global warming is due to fossil fuels...

What is known however is that the average yield of oil wells are decreasing, the new oil finds are all more expensive to produce (shale gas etc.). So, while it is probable that there is far more oil underneath, it will become more and more expensive to extract.

What is also undeniable is that fossil fuel represents buried carbon. Release of carbon will have some cost to environment, and that cost will have to be borne (just as nuclear power has cost of disposal of waste).

Technology also changes things fast, Solar PV cost reductions mirror that of laptops or mobiles (i.e. silicon) - http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/...ltaic-cost.jpg

So, as happened with Mobiles, before you know it Solar PV will proliferate and solve the energy problem in India, due to private citizen efforts, even if Govt fails to do so.

Solar power will be cheaper than Grid power within next decade. You and me will be power producers at our homes. My friend's home in US gets 2/3rd of its power from Solar already, and it cost him equivalent of US$(20,000) to do so.

He has central heating/AC and an electric car to take care of. His energy bill per month used to be above US$200, and now he saves about US$150/month. He has 25year guarantee on the Solar PV, during the day time he contributes to grid and in night he takes power from grid (with 'net metering'). His ROI is 10 years right now, so not many would touch it.

But, when solar PV prices crashes to 25% of what it is today (as predicted by 2020), you'd be able to get 100% of your electricity with about US$5000 and the ROI will come down to 2.5years after which you'll have years of free electricity. Almost every one will adopt it.

Future will be far different than what we see today. I will be using Primary Solar energy within my life time (i.e. next 20yrs). And I can't be running my car with fossil fuels then.

[MileCruncher]

Originally Posted by hkollar

But, when solar PV prices crashes to 25% of what it is today (as predicted by 2020), you'd be able to get 100% of your electricity with about US$5000 and the ROI will come down to 2.5years after which you'll have years of free electricity. Almost every one will adopt it.

OT: If everyone adopts it, then the cost of power will become skewed towards night / non sun times.

However what we are not including is the carbon footprint. EV's even today have a much higher carbon footprint than traditional automobiles due to technology and production still remaining localised. Plus the economies of scale hasn't set in.

Having said that, I myself would be interested in the E2O as replacement for my Nano once the Nano completes its 4 year term.

[hkollar]

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

OT: If everyone adopts it, then the cost of power will become skewed towards night / non sun times.

Which is all the better! In fact, worldwide the power demand peaks towards afternoon. And majority of capacity is wasted between 9pm to 6am!!

Check this chart : http://theline.cooperpower.com/assets/peak-demand.jpg

Higher your baseload, cheaper it is to produce power. The baseload is always the power you generate for 24/7 as if this load is not utilized, then it needs to be grounded!

So every grid plans a baseload for its 'lowest' consumption. Intermediate cycling typically comes from Hydro power, and peak comes from Diesel generators.

Having higher utilization in night, increases utilization of Base load, which power grids will LOVE!!!

Studies have estimated that 80% of the cars in the US could be electric without having to build a single power plant if everyone charged at night off peak hours. If 100% of the cars charged at night, then you just need 10% more base load capacity build out.

This is where smart-grid with 'demand response' comes in. The charging stations of tomorrow, will be smart grid ready and will throttle the charging current, when the grid experiences 'peak demand'. This way, most car charging is done on 'base load'.

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

However what we are not including is the carbon footprint. EV's even today have a much higher carbon footprint than traditional automobiles due to technology and production still remaining localised. Plus the economies of scale hasn't set in.

Having said that, I myself would be interested in the E2O as replacement for my Nano once the Nano completes its 4 year term.

EVs have higher carbon footprint? How so? The only way this can happen is if all are charging at peak-load, not on base load.


There are so many misconception about EVs. EVs solve a critical piece of transport puzzle - cleaner, cheaper urban transport. They are not a solution to all problems - Yet.

Read these :
http://www.briangreenstone.com/electric-cars/index.html

http://blog.rmi.org/blog_Five_Real_W...tElectric_Cars

[MileCruncher]

Originally Posted by hkollar

EVs have higher carbon footprint? How so? The only way this can happen is if all are charging at peak-load, not on base load.

Its not about charging but in the manufacturing process. I'll dig out and post an old research article that carbon footprint of the manufacturing process of Prius is more than that of an equal sized car.

The cost of a vehicle is also an indication of the carbon footprint. The empirical formula is higher the manufacturing cost, higher the carbon footprint.

We can keep debating this, but I feel we have digressed from the original point.

Hence I rest.

Cheers

[crazydave]

Couldn't find it anywhere in this thread but any idea when we can expect a t-bhp review of the E20? Couple of other thoughts I had:
- Any idea if Mahindra has done any testing in the Delhi summers? A lot of the spy pics on this thread seem to be from Bangalore. Interested to know how the Li-Ion battery packs will handle 48+ degree Delhi summers (and hopefully no failures like the Dreamliner!)
- At 6 lakh on the road in Delhi and a running cost of what, 50p/km, if this had a larger boot, the Government should just make all cabs in the city move to this. Pollution goes down further and at 15-20INR/km against running cost of 50p, cab companies should not complain too much I think
- Any plans of the Mahindra's to get into e-Autorickshaws based on the Reva tech?

[hkollar]

Apparently in Bangalore E2O is priced at Rs. 6.24Lakhs on road as of now.

http://www.bsmotoring.com/news/mahin...k-value/6555/2


Not too bad, but wonder if people would settle for T0 version or would want the T2, which would take it close to 7lakhs.

[pachchu]

Originally Posted by crazydave

- At 6 lakh on the road in Delhi and a running cost of what, 50p/km, if this had a larger boot, the Government should just make all cabs in the city move to this. Pollution goes down further and at 15-20INR/km against running cost of 50p, cab companies should not complain too much I think

E20 is 2-door - not feasible for taxis.

[Maverick5490]

A few pics of the e2o spotted today at Mahindra Towers Worli.

P.S.: They were working on some charging point, hence the bulbs and wires in the front boot! and a pic of the charging point within the complex.

[BuildUpGypsy]

Looks solid. I had a 'toy' image in mind. Now it's changed.

[swiftnfurious]

I found this video review of E20 by ACI.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe9oSxWBIlU

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

EVs therefore only have a reason to exist if:

(1) There is adequate amount of surplus energy on the grid after meeting current requirements, or at least the capacity to produce more such energy.

AND

(2) If such energy is produced from renewable sources - if you're going to burn fossil fuels in a central location to produce power, it beats the purpose entirely.

Clearly the infracstructure is not ready to support large scale migration from petroleum to electric, but this is a good start and addresses a niche market.

Reg #2, EVs are least effective in India from achieving 'truly green mobility'
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...anest-paraguay

but IMO its still worth pursuing EVs because when the green grid is ready, you want to be ready with the charging infrastructure, EV culture, customer familiarity & positive mindset

[apachelongbow]

EV will start large scale sales only and only when the battery range improves. Current charge ranges are pathetic to say charitably. For example the Reva claims 100 kms/charge at a speed of 60kmph and 80km at 80kmph or so. Now a range of 100km is like putting 10 liters petrol/diesel and driving around, the time you go from one end of town and back (say regular work-home commute) you have exhausted your charge. Also this charge is when the vehicle is new, under ideal test conditions, in real life expect 70% of the quoted range.

Again refueling (in this case recharging) take several hours, the shortest quick charge taking an hour. Compare this with filling your tank under 5 mins max.

Again I stay on the 4th floor. How do I charge my EV? Drop a cable from my window down? If I use the society power outlet, how to monitor the usage and who pays the charge?

Three main drawbacks/irritants for me in changing over to electric.

[claxtoncorreya]

The centre console seems to be inspired by that on the micra. I was pleasantly surprised by the fit & finish and panel gaps in the pictures.

Is the steering wheel of an odd shape by any chance at 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock?

[Rehaan]

Originally Posted by crazydave

Couldn't find it anywhere in this thread but any idea when we can expect a t-bhp review of the E20?

In case you missed this : https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...4479646&type=1

Originally Posted by claxtoncorreya

Is the steering wheel of an odd shape by any chance at 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock?

Yes, it does have some additional padding in those locations.

cya
R