[Klub Class]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

<Sigh> That road is not visible because Google is not showing roads of that class in it's map display, despite having the data.

Though I haven't checked the road in question on Google Maps, I thought of chipping in the fact that significant fraction of roads, POIs etc that you see on Google Maps are contributed by users.

For instance, multiple roads and major POIs (read, hospitals, schools, places of worship, restaurants, government offices etc) in my native place were not marked on the maps few years back and I had added them on the Google maps using Google Map Maker.

The same way, the road in discussion can be marked on the maps.

I'm sharing an YouTube video on adding a a road to maps :

http://youtu.be/yBHlKyx-WyI

[HillMan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

But reading through this thread, putting together a map of India, seems to be a complicated process with lots of legal issues. Anybody that can offer insights how the OSM team deals with this?

Jeroen

OSM is neither commercial nor trust worthy for mission critical applications. This is purely community driven. Most of the GPS traces are captured on mobile phones, which is not accurate always. One of the reasons for the failure of Apple maps. The addresses are not always right, because there is no one verifying the authenticity of the update.

They are not big enough for the Govt. to go behind.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Sure, but - in the context of this thread - who cares? Others no longer use survey maps to collect geo-coordinate / navigation data; they use satellite images for reference.

You will. If the GoI decides to come after you.
To the GoI/ SoI whether you are working on a plane table, or a photogrammetrist working, it is the same thing. For legal compliance, the sat images had to be bought from ISRO. It was/ (is?) quite cheap. Getting that permission was another matter, but that provided you legal protection.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

So how does this work then for OSM (Open street Maps). I used them on my Garmin. They are completely free of charge, available to all and are maintained and improved by volunteers. I'm not sure what sort of base map they start from, no idea.

But reading through this thread, putting together a map of India, seems to be a complicated process with lots of legal issues. Anybody that can offer insights how the OSM team deals with this?

Jeroen

OSM doesn't sell its data. And has no legal presence in India. Also OSM does not dabble in what actually gets the goat (of GoI/ SoI) - International borders and coastlines.
OSM users here have a moderately active group here (Talk-In). You can ask your questions there. Or drop a line to Bhpian PlaneMad.

I'm more interested in knowing about Navteq and TeleAtlas!

Regards
Sutripta

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

I am a regular OSM contributor. However, there are few people in India mapping. That said, mapping of big cities is decent, and pretty usable. Chennai, due to the strong community there, has excellent mapping.
Out of India, esp in Europe, OSM is at par, if not better than the commercial vendors.

Speaking of legal issues, its an open map, hosted externally. SO GOI has no jurisdiction on somebody in the west hosting a map of India.
However, if an Indian based entity was selling products based on OSM, you could be in trouble.

But, there is a workaround. in the fine print of the map license, they can always say that this is a map of fictional land for a TV serial called indiaaaa

Originally Posted by HillMan

OSM is neither commercial nor trust worthy for mission critical applications. This is purely community driven. Most of the GPS traces are captured on mobile phones, which is not accurate always. One of the reasons for the failure of Apple maps. The addresses are not always right, because there is no one verifying the authenticity of the update.

They are not big enough for the Govt. to go behind.

Thanks, that is useful and interesting.

I use the Openstreet maps. I have found Delhi and the immediate surrounding areas up to 300 kilometers pretty well covered. Went up to Lansdowne this weekend and all the roads we travelled on, some pretty rural where there with one exception.

I guess it really depends on the territory and how many enthusiast you have contributing. In Western Europe the OSM maps are really good. In my home country the Netherlands the bicycle/walking map of the whole of the Netherlands has unbelievable detail. None of the commercial maps can match that.

I own several TomTom in the USA and in Europe. I always got myself an update subscription. Every day, things change. Roads get closed down, become one way, new road and junction get added, so I always found the update service very useful. Without it your maps in a typical (Western) country will be outdated pretty quickly.

I know quite a bit on how GPS works, but in all honesty the maps and how they are made these days has always been a bit of a mystery. So this is good information. Thanks

Jeroen

[alto99]

Originally Posted by binand

But they cannot use satellite images as-is to generate maps.

They do. In fact even anyone can contribute since more than 3 years. Check this http://www.google.com/mapmaker.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by HillMan

OSM is neither commercial nor trust worthy for mission critical applications. This is purely community driven. Most of the GPS traces are captured on mobile phones, which is not accurate always. One of the reasons for the failure of Apple maps. The addresses are not always right, because there is no one verifying the authenticity of the update.

They are not big enough for the Govt. to go behind.

I could not get your point. So you trust corporations as opposed to the community?
Please be aware, the backbone of technology which is allowing you to get online and write whatever opinions you may have, is based on community driven.
If you do not trust "community driven", I suggest you should first stop using your internet connection

[HillMan]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

I could not get your point. So you trust corporations as opposed to the community?
Please be aware, the backbone of technology which is allowing you to get online and write whatever opinions you may have, is based on community driven.
If you do not trust "community driven", I suggest you should first stop using your internet connection

My statement could be misunderstood. I wouldnt be in this forum if I didnt support community.

I have myself contributed a lot to OSM, later moved on to Waze, as I find their map editor easier and updates are available online pretty quick.

The point I was trying to make is, because corporates like Google, has a strategy to keep things free for the community, but are also driven by profit making from commerce, like ad and search results. They spend a lot of money on agencies which survey and make map corrections. The community is allowed to contribute, but there is certain amount of moderation.

Waze, another community driven Navigation system, for example, lets you make the changes on the map. But limits you to update the area you traveling around and based on your points earned. I could drive down an unmarked path, recording it and later mark that as a road on the map.

The updates are regularly locked down by agencies after verification. These locked roads cannot be modified by the community.

So overall accuracy is better compared to a purely community driven map.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by HillMan

My statement could be misunderstood. I wouldnt be in this forum if I didnt support community.

I have myself contributed a lot to OSM, later moved on to Waze, as I find their map editor easier and updates are available online pretty quick.

The point I was trying to make is, because corporates like Google, has a strategy to keep things free for the community, but are also driven by profit making from commerce, like ad and search results.

You are wrong. Google profits from community effort. But if you want to use google maps on your server, you have to pay. Using google maps on your site, the same maps community helped develop, you need to pay google. So its like a company using volunteers to create software, then giving it away only if you pay a license fee

They spend a lot of money on agencies which survey and make map corrections. The community is allowed to contribute, but there is certain amount of moderation.

Only for the basemap. Moderation is there also in community

Waze, another community driven Navigation system, for example, lets you make the changes on the map. But limits you to update the area you traveling around and based on your points earned. I could drive down an unmarked path, recording it and later mark that as a road on the map.

The updates are regularly locked down by agencies after verification. These locked roads cannot be modified by the community.

So overall accuracy is better compared to a purely community driven map.

Thats a flawed model. For example, a main road next to where I live will be closed for next 2 years for underpass construction. Going by history, OSM had the routes marked blocked, but google and others kept on showing the blocked road.

Google may be more immune to "vandalism", but in OSM also instances of vandalism have been caught and corrected often.

[Jeroen]

For all my car, bike, bicycle and walking navigation I tend to use specific GPS devices, eg. TomTom and Garmin. I find they do the best job overall, especially in terms of planning.

I do use google maps on my PC and my phone quite regularly just to check where I am, how far something is etc. I must admit that Google still surprised me now and then on what has been incorporated.

Yesterday evening I had to look for an adress of somebody in the Netherlands. Couldn't find it anywhere. Online telephone books did not show it. Google search did not help either.

Then I typed the persons name into googlemap and up came her exact adress on both map/satelite view. Tried it with several other names. They certainly haven't map all of the Dutch population, but they have certainly mapped more than just celebrities. Who would have thought.

Jeroen

[HillMan]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

You are wrong. Google profits from community effort. But if you want to use google maps on your server, you have to pay.

Thats right, you need to pay license fee for commercial use only. Google maps and navigation are free for general use. If you want to use the map on your website or application, then you have to pay license fee and configure the handshake protocols. Nothing wrong with it. They too need to sustain the service. Donations may not be sufficient.

No company can survive without a proper business model.

Only for the basemap. Moderation is there also in community

The moderator is doing a service and is not obligated to make corrections. There are no targets to meet. People do good work, else we wont have such elaborate maps available for free at all.

Thats a flawed model. For example, a main road next to where I live will be closed for next 2 years for underpass construction. Going by history, OSM had the routes marked blocked, but google and others kept on showing the blocked road.

Waze allows for setting up temporary blocks right through your phone when you see one. And then will reroute you and others on that route.

Google may be more immune to "vandalism", but in OSM also instances of vandalism have been caught and corrected often.

This is the point I am trying to make. Thanks.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by HillMan

Thats right, you need to pay license fee for commercial use only. .

Again, you are misinformed. If you are using the API for non commercial use, you pay if your site is popular.
Free limits number of access.
Any more than the number you pay. Of course many violate these terms of service, but as usually you will have google going after big violators only.

[HillMan]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Again, you are misinformed. If you are using the API for non commercial use, you pay if your site is popular.
Free limits number of access.
Any more than the number you pay. Of course many violate these terms of service, but as usually you will have google going after big violators only.

How is Google supposed to know you are making money or not?
Most sites and apps now a days runs Ad tickers and banners. Google has millions of sites accessing data, it is humanly impossible to monitor and allow or deny access.

Not every license is charged. And mostly they determine your license based on the kind of feature and generated traffic. You have a point though about popular sites, because they will generate high traffic.

You know how much it costs to sustain data centers and servers, imagine Google and the hits their services receive. They also spend a huge amount on R&D for future products with cutting edge technologies. They have to have a successful business model, or will perish in no time.

https://developers.google.com/maps/licensing

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by HillMan

You know how much it costs to sustain data centers and servers, imagine Google and the hits their services receive. They also spend a huge amount on R&D for future products with cutting edge technologies. They have to have a successful business model, or will perish in no time.

https://developers.google.com/maps/licensing

But you can argue it costs a lot of money for a skilled guy to do mapping. A salary of 100,000$/year. Google gets it free from the community.
And speaking of servers etc., OSM does it. Mozilla does it, and so do countless others, surviving on advert revenue.
I have no problem with charging for API access.
But when you have a platform for "community mapping", you need to give back.
If MS had done such a thing, the entire online community would have been up in arms!

[binand]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

And speaking of servers etc., OSM does it. Mozilla does it, and so do countless others, surviving on advert revenue.

As far as I know, neither OSM nor Mozilla survive on advert revenue. OSM's revenue is primarily donations, and Mozilla's is payment from Google for traffic generated from its "Start" page and search box.

[HillMan]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

But when you have a platform for "community mapping", you need to give back.
If MS had done such a thing, the entire online community would have been up in arms!

Agreed. MS would have had a bigger backlash. Because they are purely profit making business. They sold products and liaisoned with OEMs to kill competition.

Google too is not wholly community driven, and is answerable to its share holders. They closely guard their proprietary technologies.

Google's approach to the internet is to keep it free for users. All their services are someway or the other linked to their search engine, which is their golden goose.

They make their money from Ads and services offered for commercial use. Providing service for free is acceptable to a limit. To keep it simple, I might do community service and provide technology for free, that said I wouldnt expect someone else to use my resources for their benefit, even if they are giving it out free. Thats because they are servicing a million other sites and applications as well, and need to maintain an acceptable response time. A popular site generating more than acceptable load on bandwidth and server resources, better pay up. If they have a business model to support their services, they can as well share a part to keep Google running.

It will be wrong to say Google is not giving back to the community. You have a great searchable map out there and a free turn by turn voice guided Navigation service.

You dont need to even register with or login to Google to embed your address on a map to send to friends for directions

Mozilla is doing a great job, but their model will not work for Google. They make products that run on user systems. Software download is the only bandwidth they have to give out. Google on the other hand provides online resource intensive services, which is consumed by millions of users and devices.