[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by ampere

... its good to have Google no doubt. But I would also not depend fully on it. ... To find an actual route, I dont depend on any one map. Best is research all available Google, MMI etc etc and translate all that into the device which would help me guide ...

That's the way everyone does, without prejudice to either. I plan on Google on my laptop, then use the PND to navigate - simply because it routes faster and better.

Apart from the 2 issues I wrote of earlier, here are some more issues that constantly bug me:

1. Google Maps routing is still suspect, at best. The routing does not account for Class and Average Speed of roads - something that PNDs account for. Google has the data in it's database - that is how it differentiates highways and local roads with wide and narrow lines on the map. It doesn't calculate expected arrival time accurately. It cannot, as it relies on total distance left / average speed so far (or default). For example, I compared Google's routing and Garmin's routing from BIAL to home (Vijayanagar):
- Google always shows route through the densest part of town, just because that route is 1 Km. shorter. It also shows the same arrival time even if I am stuck for 10 min. near Sheshadripuram or Okalipuram
- Garmin never takes me on that route, and it constantly updates expected arrival time if there is a delay en route

Granted, on the mobile Google Maps shows 3 possible routes between points A and B. If you are not from that town you wouldn't know which is the better option, so it might as well give you one route - since you wouldn't know the difference.

On PNDs, one can usually select which Class of roads one wants to avoid (Toll, Ferry, local roads etc.). It is not possible to specify this on Google Maps.

2. Location of a business or PoI is *very* suspect on Google Maps & Google Places. Much of the PoI data on Google relies on Google Places (earlier Google Business or something). I have noticed this with more than 50% of the ones I have searched for.

Google Places data is specified by the BUSINESS / ESTABLISHMENT which registers on Google Places (effectively crowd sourced). I figured out why the error happens when I had to specify for a friend's business on Google Places: the placement accuracy completely depends on the zoom level of Google Maps when one 'drops the pin' to specify location! If you are sufficiently zoomed out, your pin can specify geo-coordinates which are off by as much as 500m (typically 50-100m). This can put your recorded location on a completely different street (one can realize that by relating it to street spacing). The more one zooms in, the more accurate is the recorded geo-coordinate

3. In situations where there are parallel roads spaced closely (usually called Xth Mains or Yth Crosses), Google has conveniently left out the intermediate ones in most areas. I know for sure, since I have submitted dozens of such errors (of places I have been to) to Google for review. Their correction period was 9 months the last time I had done it.

One of them was the road on which I live (11th Main) which was not there on the map - the nearest was 8th or 13th Main. The map on my PND (both Garmin and MMI) had it correctly for the last 7 years!!! 11th Main wouldn't show up on any search, so I could never tell anyone to search on Google Maps! Now it does, but one has to be careful: it shows 11th Main in Vijayanagar IN MYSORE if one hasn't specified Bangalore

As far as spelling mistakes are concerned, both Google and PND maps are replete with atrocious mistakes (howlers to be precise), regional spellings (with silly mistakes) as well as acronyms / abbreviations even the originator wouldn't recognize the second time around.

[binand]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

I plan on Google on my laptop [...] Google Maps routing is still suspect, at best. The routing does not account for Class and Average Speed of roads

This is possibly because you plan on the computer. If you plan on the mobile device, it actually takes into account not just these variables, but also realtime traffic conditions. For example, if I drive to BIAL from my home (M'halli) at 4AM (my usual time), it routes me through ORR but during daytime or late evenings, it tries one of Suranjan Das Road/OMR, Trinity/MG Road/Sankey Road etc. depending on where the jam is. Google understands the PITA that KR Puram interchange is. :-)

Another example: This morning - I went to drop my in-laws at SBC (5:30 AM). Usually when I go there during day time, Google tells me to return (to M'halli) through Cubbon park. Today, I think since it was before the park opened, it actually directed me through a different route - slightly longer, but something that did take into account the situation at that point in time.

As a matter of fact, Google's realtime traffic condition update is a boon to even the seasoned driver on Bangalore roads.

Originally Posted by DerAlte

On PNDs, one can usually select which Class of roads one wants to avoid (Toll, Ferry, local roads etc.). It is not possible to specify this on Google Maps.

You can. Both on the old Google Maps, and on the new (beta) one.

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Location of a business or PoI is *very* suspect on Google Maps & Google Places

In situations where there are parallel roads spaced closely (usually called Xth Mains or Yth Crosses), Google has conveniently left out the intermediate ones in most areas.

As far as spelling mistakes are concerned, both Google and PND maps are replete with atrocious mistakes

These are all issues in the content that can be addressed over time. I am sure all the content providers (be it Google, Nokia, MMI/Garmin, Bing...) do plan to continuously fix these issues - maybe not in the priority order we would like. I read recently that Bing (I think) is planning to source PoI data from OSM - others will surely follow suit.

The difference between the MMI/Garmin type PND and Google/Bing/Nokia type mobile mapping is the need for data connection in exchange for realtime information. I think the PND vendors do not have a believable answer to the advantage of having that (traffic updates, road conditions etc.). As data coverage increases and as data usage charges go down, this difference will surely become a problem for the PND vendors.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by binand

I think the PND vendors do not have a believable answer to the advantage of having that (traffic updates, road conditions etc.). As data coverage increases and as data usage charges go down, this difference will surely become a problem for the PND vendors.

Actually, they do. Garmin has live traffic update in select countries, someday will be available in India.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/on-t...prod97146.html

[amitk26]

In May last week went to Yamunotri, Gangotri, Kedarnath , Badrinath and Valley of flowers.
Many new roads in this area are not marked either in Google maps or in MMI.

Advantage with google is satellite view which gives fare idea also helped to understand the geography of region and name the peaks in Chaukhamba and Kedarnath range of himalayas.

[binand]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Actually, they do. Garmin has live traffic update in select countries, someday will be available in India.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/on-t...prod97146.html

Yes, I am aware of Smartphone Link. But it doesn't do live updates within the Garmin device - it hooks to a regular Android smartphone via BT and uses the data plan of the phone. So, Garmin is addressing the (perceived) deficiency in their hardware platform by hooking to another one - one that competes with it on content. I wonder how good an idea is that (why would anyone buy a Garmin PND if one also needs to buy an Android smartphone to enable features on the PND, when said Android phone does everything the PND does?).

My original point was about the PND having (free) data connectivity of its own.

[ampere]

And just to add, Google maps is also not right at many places in Kerala/Karnataka.

E.g. : Locations around Valparai/Athirapally/Pollachi/Topslip/Parambiculam etc are not correctly marked. If one just goes my Google, around these regions, he may end up in a jeep trail.

Similarly I think NH13 and other roads around Western Ghats in Karnataka are not correctly marked. Hence its always better to check on these points before embarking on a trip.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by binand

Yes, I am aware of Smartphone Link. But it doesn't do live updates within the Garmin device - it hooks to a regular Android smartphone via BT and uses the data plan of the phone. So, Garmin is addressing the (perceived) deficiency in their hardware platform by hooking to another one

You are thinking about their old system. They have moved on.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod104181.html

[Klub Class]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Many new roads in this area are not marked either in Google maps or in MMI

Amit, please see if the new roads you've mentioned are now visible on Google Maps. If not, you can mark the roads on your own by visiting www.google.com/mapmaker.

Originally Posted by ampere

E.g. : Locations around Valparai/Athirapally/Pollachi/Topslip/Parambiculam etc are not correctly marked.

Ampere, as suggested to Amit, you can correct the errors on your own by visiting Google Mapmaker.

This, according to me is the best feature of Google Maps. (AFAIK one cannot correct the typos, errors or add new roads all by yourself on Garmin, MMI etc. Correct me if wrong)

PS: I'm NOT promoting Google Mapmaker or it's products by any means. The only reason why I've mentioned about Google Mapmaker on this thread is that once these roads are marked on the maps and the errors corrected, a lot of people will be benefited

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by binand

This is possibly because you plan on the computer. If you plan on the mobile device, it actually takes into account not just these variables, but also realtime traffic conditions. ...

Yeah, right!

Originally Posted by binand

... Google understands the PITA that KR Puram interchange is. :-) ... As a matter of fact, Google's realtime traffic condition update is a boon to even the seasoned driver on Bangalore roads ...

You seem to know more about Google Maps than even Google does!

What you gave are perfect examples of the funny routing it does. Yes, it recognizes one-ways, but otherwise GM is blind as a bat. It, or for that matter any other Navigation company, *would be* - since they are not the ones that measure traffic in real time. They CAN'T, because they don't have the infrastructure for it. Nor will they ever invest in it anytime, as there is no way of recovering that investment.

* All agencies tap into the traffic advisories put out by the Traffic Management Centre in a city. Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore etc. have it. The traffic monitoring is done by *people* sitting in front of monitors that get feeds from cameras mounted at major traffic junctions
* These systems have been around for the last 30 years or more (in India maybe last 10 years). Earlier, the advisories were sent by telex to local police stations if local intervention was required
* Then came the radio based messaging / announcements. Any RDS capable HU (or it's HD Radio equivalent) in a car can display this. Garmin units use the same on the road. Google uses the network equivalent of the same centrally in other countries. Unfortunately none of the Indian cities with TMC have this operational yet (IIRC). Bangalore experimented with this a few years back, but it is not operational. Currently TMCs go over Police Radio to alert the local cops.

One has to remember though that this is available only in places which have a centralized TMC. In smaller locations without TMC, one gets a real time visual update as soon as one reaches near a heavy traffic point.

Originally Posted by binand

... You can. Both on the old Google Maps, and on the new (beta) one. ...

Nope - didn't find it anywhere in the iOS version!

Originally Posted by binand

... source PoI data from OSM - others will surely follow suit. ...

Sure, they have to keep updating - otherwise users won't find any value in their 'product'.

ALL the vendors have crowd-sourced PoI data. If you happen to see the PoI DB of MMI and Satguide maps you will be horrified with the content. Satguide, and possibly MMI too, have relied on data from Google Earth DB - with the obvious howlers: there are a few hundred PoIs marked "My Home"!!! Initially, even Google did that - till they realized their folly.

Originally Posted by binand

... The difference between the MMI/Garmin type PND and Google/Bing/Nokia type mobile ... this difference will surely become a problem for the PND vendors.

Originally Posted by binand

Yes, I am aware of Smartphone Link. ...
My original point was about the PND having (free) data connectivity of its own.

* Surmise / assumption, not reality
* Nokia uses stored Mapquest / Nokia maps, which is the 'father' of many other maps. Google, Yahoo and Bing are online versions. And all of them use the same basic maps - whether online, desktop or mobile
* All of them hook on to the TMC announcement system either over radio or over internet
* Google / Bing / Yahoo are information aggregators, so they just hook on to as many information sources as possible, without validating that information
* Garmin, Tomtom et al are Maps & Navigation unit suppliers - traffic information is an add on
* Even in the US & Germany, people take Traffic Information with a pinch of salt. Kinetics (q.v. traffic jams and kinetics) explains the mathematics, but to put it simply: by the time one arrives at a choking point announced by the TMC, one finds traffic free flowing!

[rkbharat]

Just came back from some of the remote and hidden places of Kashmir and MMI was way better than Google Maps.

Was surprised to see the accuracy of MMI. I took this route and MMI was on the spot for 95% of the route.

Delhi - Pathankot - Jammu - Batote - Doda - Kishtwar - Daksum - Anantnag - Pahalgam - Aru - Srinagar - Ichgam - Dudhpatri - Choodra - Charar-E-Sharif - Yousmarg - Pulwama - Kulgam - Qazigund - Jammu - Delhi

[binand]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

since they are not the ones that measure traffic in real time. They CAN'T, because they don't have the infrastructure for it. Nor will they ever invest in it anytime, as there is no way of recovering that investment.

I was under the impression the realtime traffic information is generated from data shared by its users.

http://googleblog.blogspot.in/2009/0...n-traffic.html

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by binand

I was under the impression the realtime traffic information is generated from data shared by its users. ...

Imagine you sitting in a jam or at a traffic light. How motivated will you be to whip out your mobile, go to a central website, and report about the traffic condition? In Bangalore (in case you have not experienced it already), you would be sweating bullets about which django 2- or 3-wheeler, wanting to be the first to squeeze through, is going to scratch or dent your car. Not a very conducive environment for philanthropic / altruistic thoughts and actions.

[kala]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Imagine you sitting in a jam or at a traffic light. How motivated will you be to whip out your mobile, go to a central website, and report about the traffic condition? In Bangalore (in case you have not experienced it already), you would be sweating bullets about which django 2- or 3-wheeler, wanting to be the first to squeeze through, is going to scratch or dent your car. Not a very conducive environment for philanthropic / altruistic thoughts and actions.

I think you didn't read that blog article fully. It says :

"It takes almost zero effort on your part — just turn on Google Maps for mobile before starting your car — and the more people that participate, the better the resulting traffic reports get for everybody."

So you don't actually "report" the current traffic condition to a central web site, but your GM for mobiles app does it for you automatically.

[binand]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Imagine you sitting in a jam or at a traffic light. How motivated will you be to whip out your mobile, go to a central website, and report about the traffic condition?

You don't have to do any of that. Your Android phone does all that automatically.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by kala

... "... just turn on Google Maps for mobile before starting your car ..." ...

Originally Posted by binand

You don't have to do any of that. Your Android phone does all that automatically.

A very typical geek's way of looking at the world, with the assumption that the world does what I do!!!

1. I don't have an Android phone. And I don't think I will get one soon

2. The version of Google Maps on other OS doesn't behave in the same way, and currently other OSs outstrip Android by a mile

3. Geeks toting Android phones are WorkDesk-centric. They don't go roaming around the city. They also tend to stay close to their offices and arrive and depart early to avoid traffic (I have many around me. Seriously, this is a joke - so don't flame me)

4. "My Location" is a privacy issue - many wouldn't like that to be known, no matter how anonymously that is collected. People and their habits don't change just because Google Maps are around

5. The essential assumption is that life is woven around Google Maps, so one will automatically remember to run it before starting journey

6. So, effectively Google expects real time Traffic Density measurement all over the city with the people outside the above set? Someone somewhere forgot the basics of 'measurement' and 'data collection'!!!