[kala]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

A very typical geek's way of looking at the world, with the assumption that the world does what I do!!!

...

6. So, effectively Google expects real time Traffic Density measurement all over the city with the people outside the above set? Someone somewhere forgot the basics of 'measurement' and 'data collection'!!!

Ah - so you mean the "traffic management centers" that you were referring to perform a 100% measurement of traffic all over the city ??

I do look at the Traffic layer on Google Maps on my android, and while I don't expect them to be 100% accurate, it does a decent job on pointing out the high traffic areas (shown in Red) - especially considering how sparse their data collection would be (After all how many geeks with androids can one expect in a city).

So statistics is probably a science after all, even if inexact..

[NetfreakBombay]

Though I use PND for Navigation (Garmin), Google Maps are useful too. So both are turned-on at Ignition.

Originally Posted by DerAlte

2. The version of Google Maps on other OS doesn't behave in the same way, and currently other OSs outstrip Android by a mile

This is interesting info, by which mesure these OSs outstrip Andoid? By the way, I have Google Maps on three OS (traffic available in all):

1. Android
2. iOS
3. Blackberry

I also used to have Symbian (Nokia 5230) and even that had Google Maps.

So, Andoid is not required for live traffic

Originally Posted by DerAlte

5. The essential assumption is that life is woven around Google Maps, so one will automatically remember to run it before starting journey

User does not have to remember anything. Phone goes into "Drive Mode" as soon as it is put in a car cradle for charging. Along with SatNav, calls and SMS are handeled differently in Drive mode.

It can also be done by a 100 Rs. NFC tag. With that, Phone changes mode as user enters or leaves the car.

Originally Posted by DerAlte

4. "My Location" is a privacy issue - many wouldn't like that to be known

That is a concern. User can opt out of sending GPS info back to Google. Steps : http://support.google.com/gmm/bin/an...n&answer=81875

Originally Posted by DerAlte

6. So, effectively Google expects real time Traffic Density measurement all over the city with the people outside the above set? Someone somewhere forgot the basics of 'measurement' and 'data collection'!!!

Along with phones, data is purchased from third parties. In Mumbai, this data comes from BEST busses and Radio taxis. These have first-hand info on traffic congestion.

[binand]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

2. The version of Google Maps on other OS doesn't behave in the same way, and currently other OSs outstrip Android by a mile

Well, Android as per several estimates dominates Indian smartphone market with share of more than 50%. Which other smartphone OS outstrips Android by a mile?

Originally Posted by DerAlte

4. "My Location" is a privacy issue - many wouldn't like that to be known, no matter how anonymously that is collected. People and their habits don't change just because Google Maps are around

You are right, but we are talking of Indians. Just look at any random Indian Facebook page to understand our attitude towards privacy.

Originally Posted by DerAlte

5. The essential assumption is that life is woven around Google Maps, so one will automatically remember to run it before starting journey

That has changed - in today's Android phones, it is not necessary. The service starts at boot time and runs in the background. You just need to enable My Location at the time of phone setup/first use.

Originally Posted by DerAlte

6. So, effectively Google expects real time Traffic Density measurement all over the city with the people outside the above set? Someone somewhere forgot the basics of 'measurement' and 'data collection'!!!

Quite. Also of sampling and random distributions, not to mention of precision and accuracy.

Note that the Google realtime traffic update *works*. I can see the Old Airport Road from my office window - and I can see Android's realtime traffic monitor reflects the situation on the ground pretty accurately.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by kala

... it does a decent job on pointing out the high traffic areas (shown in Red) ...

I suggest you read posts carefully before trying to go the sarcy way (I hope you aren't one of those geeks that I talked of, and felt offended).

The 'trend' Google is presenting is NOT from the data that you so proudly expect to be already crowd-sourced! It is data coming from the TMC. And no, the people at TMC don't count cars per minute or hour (they do, sometimes, for reference), they also approximate it on a scale of 5.

And yes, TMC monitors all the roads and junctions that matter. Maybe not the 30' road in front of my house. With cars parked on both sides of the road, even the most hurried outsider won't drive through even if Google Maps suggests it on the route!

Currently (till that crowd-sourcing you so fondly expect takes off), the TMC data is the only one. Unless Google employees sitting in their towers are using binoculars to report on traffic. Or they have agents who sit / stand beside roads and measure traffic density. Or maybe Google continuously studies satellite imagery like in Hollywood movies? Who knows - anything is possible, right?

And the last time I checked, Statistics was Mathematics, not Science. And pretty precise like anything else in Maths - not 'inexact' as you describe. It may not give you a direct answer you might be looking for (like predicting the winner in a race or the outcome of a cricket match), but one can't blame Statistics for that.

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

... This is interesting info, by which mesure these OSs outstrip Andoid? ... So, Andoid is not required for live traffic ...

Originally Posted by binand

Well, Android as per several estimates dominates Indian smartphone market with share of more than 50%. Which other smartphone OS outstrips Android by a mile? ...

Since the accumulated base of the other OSs on the ground is much more than Android. This is not about "current popularity" of mobile and mobile OSs.

And, with all the felicity of GM Live Update, how many of the Android phones (the others go by with other maps, or sometimes GM - only when they need to navigate), how many are at all running GM at any point of time, and how many do you think are participating in GM Live Update (which @kala & @binand were assuming is the source of traffic data)?

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

... It can also be done by a 100 Rs. NFC tag. ...

Sir, we were discussing what IS BEING DONE, not what CAN BE DONE!

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

... data comes from BEST busses and Radio taxis. These have first-hand info on traffic congestion ...

Correct, but ... CAN come, DOESN'T come yet. Please check. Again, theoretical possibility is not the same as what IS being done.

Originally Posted by binand

... Quite. Also of sampling and random distributions, not to mention of precision and accuracy. ...

Err ... what are you alluding to? Measurement of traffic?

Originally Posted by binand

... I can see the Old Airport Road from my office window - and I can see Android's realtime traffic monitor reflects the situation on the ground pretty accurately.

English is a phunny ambiguous language! Sure it does, but weren't we discussing about the data source of traffic conditions and (what you pointed to) "crowd-sourced Live Update via GM running on mobiles with the average driver on the road"? Or should we assume you are the one who updates traffic data of Old Airport Road since you can see it from your office window?

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

2. The version of Google Maps on other OS doesn't behave in the same way, and currently other OSs outstrip Android by a mile

I don't think so : http://tech2.in.com/news/mobile-phon...-report/541722

With respect to the number of unit shipments during the 6-month period ending on June 2012, the leading smartphone operating systems emerged to be Android with 56.4 percent, Symbian with 17.4 percent, BlackBerry with 12.1 percent, Bada at 8.5 percent, iOS with 3.0 percent and Windows Mobile at 2.6 percent on a base of 5.50 million units.

3. Geeks toting Android phones are WorkDesk-centric. They don't go roaming around the city. They also tend to stay close to their offices and arrive and depart early to avoid traffic (I have many around me. Seriously, this is a joke - so don't flame me)

Most of the commute happens office-home, and home office. These routes from known residential quarters to office areas(unaffordable for salaried class) are clogged the most. This is where live traffic reporting is needed. Why would you need live traffic reporting on a route not used

4. "My Location" is a privacy issue - many wouldn't like that to be known, no matter how anonymously that is collected. People and their habits don't change just because Google Maps are around

That is true for any system. You have to opt in. Google maps asks you whether you want to share your location

5. The essential assumption is that life is woven around Google Maps, so one will automatically remember to run it before starting journey

Thats true for any application doing traffic reporting

6. So, effectively Google expects real time Traffic Density measurement all over the city with the people outside the above set? Someone somewhere forgot the basics of 'measurement' and 'data collection'!!!

From what I have experienced in New Delhi, google traffic data about congestion points is pretty accurate. Sure it covers a small set, but even if only 10 cars out of 1000 are in the jam using this, google has 10 data points indicating average speed of 5kmph. It may not come from this system yet, but with an average speed based system, you can predict slow moving traffic as well as congested traffic signals easily with very few data points. However, if a group of people decide to game the system by doing 5kmph on an empty road, that is also possible

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Currently (till that crowd-sourcing you so fondly expect takes off), the TMC data is the only one. Unless Google employees sitting in their towers are using binoculars to report on traffic. Or they have agents who sit / stand beside roads and measure traffic density. Or maybe Google continuously studies satellite imagery like in Hollywood movies? Who knows - anything is possible, right?

Google need not buy binoculars

There are other companies that aggregate and sell traffic data. This comes from things that run 24x7 and have GPS (E.g. Radio Taxis). At least in Mumbai, this data is pretty good.

[kala]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

I suggest you read posts carefully before trying to go the sarcy way (I hope you aren't one of those geeks that I talked of, and felt offended).

... Unless Google employees sitting in their towers are using binoculars to report on traffic. Or they have agents who sit / stand beside roads and measure traffic density. Or maybe Google continuously studies satellite imagery like in Hollywood movies? Who knows - anything is possible, right?

My my.. wonder who's going the "sarcy way" (interesting term)..

You seem to believe that the crowd-sourcing cannot work, I believe that it's an excellent alternative to a centralized monitoring system (The last point in @tsk1979's message is what prompts me to believe so - see below). So let's agree to disagree on that aspect rather than waste bandwidth.

Originally Posted by DerAlte

And the last time I checked, Statistics was Mathematics, not Science. And pretty precise like anything else in Maths - not 'inexact' as you describe. It may not give you a direct answer you might be looking for (like predicting the winner in a race or the outcome of a cricket match), but one can't blame Statistics for that.

First time I'm hearing about statistics being an exact science (err.. maths) that gives you precise results.. Pardon my ignorance, I've been working in that field for only about 3 decades, so may be I haven't seen enough of data to arrive at such a conclusion. Guess one learns something new each day

Originally Posted by tsk1979

From what I have experienced in New Delhi, google traffic data about congestion points is pretty accurate. Sure it covers a small set, but even if only 10 cars out of 1000 are in the jam using this, google has 10 data points indicating average speed of 5kmph. It may not come from this system yet, but with an average speed based system, you can predict slow moving traffic as well as congested traffic signals easily with very few data points. However, if a group of people decide to game the system by doing 5kmph on an empty road, that is also possible

Precisely why I believe why crowd-sourcing can work for this sort of a problem even if the sample size of people contributing to the dataset is very small. Even if you have only 10 data points that are moving at 5 kmph, I'd be willing to bet my money on possibility that the traffic on that road is moving at a crawl.. even though I wouldn't be 100% sure about it (since I don't believe that statistics can ever be precise)

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

I don't think so ...

Do the math: how many mobile phones are running Google Maps at any point of time on specific major roads, further derated by how many are participating in the program. Not anywhere near the data collected through the traffic cams at the TMC.

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

Google need not buy binoculars ...

Oh, I didn't know they made their own, or had implanted tele lenses! :(

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

... At least in Mumbai, this data is pretty good.

Should be, one would expect it to be. But my question was: is it used? If it is not uniformly available across metros, it is at best an auxiliary data which Google can't wire into automation uniformly.

Usually, data generators sit on a pile of data with no one else having access to it. Extracting dynamic data from the tracking that the taxi companies do is not trivial. That is why theoretical possibilities don't usually match practical usage.

In other countries, traffic data is measured by sensors embedded in the road (usually 4'x8' loops, one per lane, one set for each road leading into the junction) - which are used for automation of traffic lights. This enables them to turn lights red for all roads, yet wherever a vehicle has arrived (even a moped or bicycle) turn only that light green. Light Controllers are networked (over low power radio, or more recently - optical fibre), allowing for, for example, synchronized green on a long road with multiple crossings. That Network ultimately lands at the TMC, allowing the TMC to remotely control lights - and get traffic data directly.

These have existed for the last 30 years. Not in India, not even with new installations of traffic lights - with the result that the TMC has to get onto Wireless to get the nearest cops to go and control the lights, or switch them off and control the traffic manually (typical scene in Bangalore).

Originally Posted by kala

... You seem to believe that the crowd-sourcing cannot work ... I've been working in that field for only about 3 decades ...

You have been in the field for 3 decades, yet you cannot differentiate CAN from DOES in English? Did I say "cannot", or did say "does not"? It is not word play.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Do the math: how many mobile phones are running Google Maps at any point of time on specific major roads, further derated by how many are participating in the program. Not anywhere near the data collected through the traffic cams at the TMC.

I was just refuting your point that other smartphone OS's outnumber Android by a mile. Thats why I put the June 2012 link that Android has 56% marketshare on smartphone platforms in India.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Usually, data generators sit on a pile of data with no one else having access to it. Extracting dynamic data from the tracking that the taxi companies do is not trivial. That is why theoretical possibilities don't usually match practical usage.

This was done in 2008. Data is available with ~2 minutes latency.

Now, *user can see status of each Taxi in realtime. Along with Taxi, GPS feed from BEST busses is also available. This works in 12 cities in India.
One free app that shows the data is : "TaxiGo". With this you can book a Taxi and see its location in realtime once it has been alloted against the booking.

http://www.birdseyetech.com/taxiGo.html


*user : someone that has paid for data license.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

I was just refuting your point that other smartphone OS's outnumber Android by a mile. ...

I know. I was talking of accumulated numbers from the past.

You believe that report? Those are like the "Car of the year" awards that car companies quote, written in proper Nielsen or MAA data presentation style - with a lot of inferences thrown in. Also, the data doesn't (simply because it can't) come from street sales - it goes by the same principle as TRPs, the "ear to the ground" being movement from Reddington, for example, and a few large dealers, say in Nehru Place or a mall in Gurgaon. With Micromax probably selling more phones than Samsung, probably Android is no. 1 !!! I still will not buy it - yet. But that is a different matter altogether. It wouldn't matter to me whether Android is number 1 or 10 - my life doesn't revolve around it.

Anyhow, for discussions like this (indirect data collection) what matters is how many devices are on the ground, not how popular the devices are.

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

... Data is available with ~2 minutes latency. ... someone that has paid for data license.

Arrey baba, all that is fine. BUT - that is still about "can be consumed", it has nothing to do with what is actually being consumed now, isn't it? If what one 'expects' were to be true always ...

[Jomz]

Does google maps really need data all the time for navigation??

I usually use google maps when i start my trip. Once the route is planned, I turn off data. i believe it does not need any data until you make any deviations from the original planned route.

I might be wrong on this

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Arrey baba, all that is fine. BUT - that is still about "can be consumed", it has nothing to do with what is actually being consumed now, isn't it? If what one 'expects' were to be true always ...

It IS being consumed. That is how Google is gettign data in India (apart from crowdsourcing).

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Anyhow, for discussions like this (indirect data collection) what matters is how many devices are on the ground, not how popular the devices are.

And in Mumbai, there are 10k running all the time doing data collection..

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

It IS being consumed. That is how Google is gettign data in India (apart from crowdsourcing). ...

Are you sure?

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

And in Mumbai, there are 10k running all the time doing data collection..

(At the risk of repeating) Are you sure?

<Cough, cough> There is an issue of plausibility, you know! Others may know it differently, right?

[binand]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Anyhow, for discussions like this (indirect data collection) what matters is how many devices are on the ground, not how popular the devices are.

Well, I can't see any difference between "how many devices are on the ground" and "how popular that device is". They are the same thing, no? In any case, that 50% number is an estimate, true - but even if it is off by about 10% it still makes Android the leader.

Originally Posted by DerAlte

<Cough, cough> There is an issue of plausibility, you know! Others may know it differently, right?

BEST has between 5000-5500 buses. Meru I think has around 2500 cabs in Mumbai. I'm not sure the project is specific to these two organizations, but I don't think the 10K number is widely off the mark - there are other alphabet soup bus companies that serve Mumbai metropolitan area (NMMT, TMT, KDMT...), not to mention the 4-5 other radio taxi services.

Summarizing, I think you are arguing simply for the sake of arguing. If you don't want to use realtime traffic updates on Android, feel free to do so. If you think Garmin/MMI provides the best mapping/navigation experience, be my guest. I think the point of this thread is whether Google is a threat to MMI and others, which I think is indeed the case. It is evident that you don't feel so. Let us agree to disagree, and move on (until the next major product overhaul from either side, at which point of time we can re-evaluate our positions).