[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

I think your mind says Maruti but heart it set on Skoda/VW/Renault/Ford. Except Renault coz its a badge engineered Micra none of the other two are going to give the "very high FE" which is the first on your check list. Could be called the "Yeti" effect, I think. I think the best would be a preowned Jazz, which will tick all the right boxes or a preowned 'new' Swift.

Nope. Nothing could be further from my intent than the Maruti. With so much choice available why should we go back to the old brand which we have experienced across different avatars across generations? I have said very high FE. This means around 14 to 15 in city and 18 to 20 on highways or is that too high an expectation from a new gen petrol car?

My folks are in their seventies, I want them to have a first class, easy to drive, stylish, chic, peppy, fun car which will give them a few years of trouble free enjoyment.
Their Indica is in brilliant shape - just done 41500 kms in the 6 years since April 2006. It has had a significant interior upgrade with some excellent new and comfy seats, new lightweight alloy wheels and a bigger tyre size upgrade and a whole new music set up etc installed in it. My dad has been the single driver and the car is in superb condition. Plus it is a Turbo Diesel V2. Great FE etc.. Does not need to be sold as it has easily another 40000 to 50000 kms of life in it! However, I think it is more to do with me and my own self induced user fatigue that urges me to think of the car change. Thing is that the Indica is not really Premium and nor are the Marutis and Hyundais in general.

[CowlFlap]

shankar.balan,
If it helps, the Jazz does come close to your FE requirements, particularly for highway drives. But, it does run aground frequently on speed breakers. My experience is from a 10 minute TD over 6 speed breakers (4 adults+1child), during which we scraped 3 times. And it wasn't just me, the company test driver too hit aground twice on the same set of speed breakers, done very slow and methodically. Could be an issue with the car itself (11600 Km on the odo and regular TD vehicle), but for me, it was a deal breaker. Why? I am looking for a car for the parents, too. I do not want them to go through the agony of hearing (and feeling) the car bottom out, more so with me on board! The anxiety of this, every time they approach a speed breaker or so, is also not something worth giving, gifting, or whatever else.
The Brio is a little better in this regard, in that it doesn’t hit bottom – not at least on any of my TD’s.

[shankar.balan]

So we went to check these cars out.

1. Jazz. Excellent. But too low for zero in terms if getting in and out. No height adjustment in the passenger seat is tough to live with for my mum.
2. Brio. Its a funky car. But the boot loading lip is too high and the boot area is too recessed and hence, inconvenient.
Both the above have a marked lack of under thigh support for my Dad and myself. However, the Jazz still has the edge because of its fantastic versatile floor load bay etc.

3. Skoda Fabia. Excellent feel. Nice and capacious. Here too, there is a problem on account of there being no height adjustment for the front passenger. However, the car itself is much higher set, and hence much easier to get in and out of. Under thigh support is perfect, even for a tall person like me or my Dad.

4. New Swift: problem with the load bay same as the Brio. And the new Swift design facelift is a bit OTT in my opinion.
5. Ritz: My dad simply doesnt like it because he feels its a tin box.
6. WagonR - very practical etc but my dad doesnt like it one bit because it is quite an ugly duckling.
7. VW Polo: looks great but is really quite low for my mum. Any day the Fabia is preferred between these two.
8. AStar AT. Hmm. Good idea, but a bit too tiny. Highway driving in this could be irritating as it is so light and small. And they are really weird, they give you the option of ABS but no Airbags! What sense does that make?
9. All others in the current Maruti stable just dont do it for us!

I know I made some general statements here in the morning but I certainly need to check out the I 20 and possibly the Indica Vista and maybe the Grande Punto too.

Having said all of this, our 6 year old Indica V2 Turbo Diesel, still returns 14 kmpl in city with AC and 19 to 20 kmpl on highways! Added to that, the modifications I have had done on the seats, alloys, tyres etc, make for an extremely comfy car indeed. It is very tough to find something similar from the stock vehicle options available, without having to resort to surgery like I did.

Sorry if all the cars are not quite 'premium' any more, given the choices I have put down here, but this is typically what one is faced with in terms of available choice!

So the revised consideration set will have to be;
Fabia - overall
I20 - need to see and consider
Jazz - another look required
Grande Punto - to be considered
Tata Indica Vista - certainly to be considered.

Else I shall have to consider used cars of a higher order.

[raj_5004]

If you feel the i20 is low set, you will definitely feel the same about the Punto too. Yes, Vista will be much better in this aspect.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

If you feel the i20 is low set, you will definitely feel the same about the Punto too. Yes, Vista will be much better in this aspect.

Haven't yet checked I 20 or Punto. Will check and figure if these are low set or not. But my guess is that these will end up being low.

[raj_5004]

Sorry, I meant that if you felt the Jazz is low set, you will feel the same for i20 and Punto.

[ghostrider]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Just a small query.

Am considering shifting to a brand new or even a well kept used petrol hatch back small car for the parents.

Basic pre requisites.
Very high FE is essential.
High GC and higher seating position for elderly people.
Good under thigh support and lower back support is an absolute must in whatever car.
Manual or AT is fine because Dad is cool with either
Safety features such as ABS, Airbags, EBD essential
Decent loading and luggage space required.
Trouble free, inexpensive maintenance and ease of handling, upkeep etc is important.

1. Honda Jazz. I hate the skinny tyres though.
2. Skoda Fabia 1.2 Elegance MPI... Skoda for their toughness and they havent stinted on the tyres.
3. Renault Pulse Petrol top spec because it looks funky
4. VW Polo 1.2 high-line petrol... looks very good indeed and they havent stinted on the tyres
5. Ford Figo Titanium petrol ...I just like that car and it is quite spacious indeed
6. Just might consider a Brio because it is really a very nice little thing.

You've enunciated your prerequisites quite clearly, well done. My two cents are as follows:

1. Skinny tyres aren't the end of the world. Don't dismiss a car because it's undertyred - instead choose a car on its fundamentals and then upgrade the tyres if you must. (I'm not one to talk though, all my cars have rubber upgrades).

2. Try and find a pre-owned Jazz in good condition. Its a nice little car and I think more VFM than the other on your list especially considering (a) petrol cars have crappy resale right now and (b) Honda's price correction wound up shafting existing Jazz owners in terms of resale.

3. Since FE is such a high priority, can I ask why you're not considering a diesel? The case for diesel is as follows:
a. Running costs per km would be HALF or A THIRD of what petrol costs per km would be.
b. Resale: Whatever the cost difference between a petrol and a diesel car may be, you MORE THAN MAKE UP the difference in terms of your running costs every month as well as when it's time to sell your car.
c. The old argument that you must cover X km a month for a diesel to make sense has pretty much defunct nowadays. I did the math and found that diesel makes sense even if you're doing 600km a month.

It could be your folks dont want a diesel, and thats fine - some people have a block against diesel cars... but I wanted to give you some food for thought.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by ghostrider

You've enunciated your prerequisites quite clearly, well done. My two cents are as follows:

1. Skinny tyres aren't the end of the world. Don't dismiss a car because it's undertyred - instead choose a car on its fundamentals and then upgrade the tyres if you must. (I'm not one to talk though, all my cars have rubber upgrades).

2. Try and find a pre-owned Jazz in good condition. Its a nice little car and I think more VFM than the other on your list especially considering (a) petrol cars have crappy resale right now and (b) Honda's price correction wound up shafting existing Jazz owners in terms of resale.

3. Since FE is such a high priority, can I ask why you're not considering a diesel? The case for diesel is as follows:
a. Running costs per km would be HALF or A THIRD of what petrol costs per km would be.
b. Resale: Whatever the cost difference between a petrol and a diesel car may be, you MORE THAN MAKE UP the difference in terms of your running costs every month as well as when it's time to sell your car.
c. The old argument that you must cover X km a month for a diesel to make sense has pretty much defunct nowadays. I did the math and found that diesel makes sense even if you're doing 600km a month.

It could be your folks dont want a diesel, and thats fine - some people have a block against diesel cars... but I wanted to give you some food for thought.

Thanks! Indeed my folks are using a diesel Indica turbo V2 which we have jazzed up significantly inside. It is extremely comfy even in comparison to these new cars that I went and saw today. Its just boredom with that 6 year old car thats making me consider an upgrade. I thought that a petrol would be slightly more comfy for them to drive as they grow older that's why the thought!

[ghostrider]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Thanks! Indeed my folks are using a diesel Indica turbo V2 which we have jazzed up significantly inside. It is extremely comfy even in comparison to these new cars that I went and saw today. Its just boredom with that 6 year old car thats making me consider an upgrade. I thought that a petrol would be slightly more comfy for them to drive as they grow older that's why the thought!

Not at all. The NVH levels on modern diesels are extremely low. My father in law swears one of his Honda Citys is noisier than Swift-diesel I just sold. Now I've got a Cruze and it's quieter (on the inside) than my wife's Honda City (as you can tell, my wife's family is big on Honda Citys).

If you're buying new, then consider a diesel variant of one of the hatches you've shortlisted. If you're buying used, then finding a good diesel hatch at the right price might be a little difficult.

FYI: A friend bought a petrol 2009 Verna 1.6 XI (in Bombay) with 30,000km on the odo and immaculately maintained for 2.8L. He then plonked in a CNG kit. I drove the car and it's great value for the money he paid.

Food for thought?

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by ghostrider

Not at all. The NVH levels on modern diesels are extremely low. My father in law swears one of his Honda Citys is noisier than Swift-diesel I just sold. Now I've got a Cruze and it's quieter (on the inside) than my wife's Honda City (as you can tell, my wife's family is big on Honda Citys).

If you're buying new, then consider a diesel variant of one of the hatches you've shortlisted. If you're buying used, then finding a good diesel hatch at the right price might be a little difficult.

FYI: A friend bought a petrol Verna 1.6 XI (in Bombay) with 30,000km on the odo and immaculately maintained for 2.8L. He then plonked in a CNG kit. I drove the car and it's great value for the money he paid.

Food for thought?

Yes certainly an excellent point. I use a Yeti and it is quite soundless. A higher segment used car could be just the job. Thing is I shall have to extract max value back from the current car and plonk the rest down. However, in general as a family we've generally not bought used if we could help it, hence the consideration of a new one.

[shankar.balan]

Ford Figo viewed today. Horrible hard plastics. Cheap finish. No way. Also however spacious the car is, the marked lack of under thigh support in the front sets and lack of height adjust in the passenger seat is a pain. Not worth it at such a price.

I don't like the Etios And Liva either. Too much cost engineering there.

Shall check on the I 20 today. Shall also check the Vista and Punto.

Looks like the only viable choices are these above ones, the Jazz and the Fabia.

Neither the Renault Pulse nor Nissan Micra will meet the need because they just dont pack enough in the, for the prices that they want to charge us.

Else an used car from a segment or two higher up.

[shankar.balan]

The I 20 also drops from the list on account of an extremely low seating position and the fact that a tall person tends to bang one's head at the point of ingress.
Also the lack of passenger seat height adjuster and lack of sufficient under thigh support.
This effectively whittles down the list further:
1. Jazz is hanging on by a thread.
2. Fiat Grande Punto hasnt yet been checked out
3. Need to re- check the Vista
4. Skoda Fabia continues in contention.

I understand that the passenger seat eight adjuster is absolutely not available in this hatch segment, however premium it might be.
Worth remembering that the Tata Indica V2 turbo and the Vista's doors open really wide, like the Fabia too. That helps older people a lot along with the fact that these cars are all set up quite high off the ground too and hence are easy to ingress and egress.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Worth remembering that the Tata Indica V2 turbo and the Vista's doors open really wide, like the Fabia too. That helps older people a lot along with the fact that these cars are all set up quite high off the ground too and hence are easy to ingress and egress.

Sir,

How did you find the the ingress and egress of the Jazz?

I personally find it a bit tedious in tight parking spots, especially if someone - let's say my mum - was previously occupying the driver's seat. When I say tight, I mean, really tight!

But otherwise it's pretty alright, I feel. You wouldn't bang your head at least!

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Sir,

How did you find the the ingress and egress of the Jazz?

I personally find it a bit tedious in tight parking spots, especially if someone - let's say my mum - was previously occupying the driver's seat. When I say tight, I mean, really tight!

But otherwise it's pretty alright, I feel. You wouldn't bang your head at least!

Hi Buddy!
The Jazz is a bit low slung. However, the ingress and egress is quite easy despite both my Dad and I being tall. However, there is no passenger seat height adjuster in the Jazz either. The doors open pretty wide and I love the clever storage and style. We dont bang our heads when ingressing or egressing! Under thigh support as with most Japanese and Korean cars seems to be a challenge.
What Im unhappy with is that since they are charging close to 8 odd lacs on road for a petrol car, they should certainly give more than just 2 airbags. They should certainly throw in 4 disc brakes and a few more gizmos too such as ASR and TCS etc for the price. But Honda have never been very generous at all with equipment and yet have charged a premium.

Looks like the Jazz is fading out...

Lets see the Vista, Grande Punto and the Fabia again. Nothing comes close to these as of now given our needs!

[Geo_Ipe]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

I understand that the passenger seat eight adjuster is absolutely not available in this hatch segment, however premium it might be.

A layman's question -

Can the driver's side height adjustable seat not be retrofitted on the passenger seat? The controls will be ulta, but isn't that a small price to pay for the convenience??

I had asked the Honda guys the same thing when I took delivery of my Jazz, but he said it couldn't be done. My common sense refuses to accept that!