[SLK]

Originally Posted by samarjitdhar

The fact that a handful few will become amazingly affluent while the majority suffer for an unknown amount time with the hope that things might turn around for them doesn't work. Yes I know, its trickle down economics, and the world including India has been playing it since the last couple of decades. Actually almost all nations as a whole barring a few individuals have become less and less prosperous by doing this.

No again! what is India's Per Capita income? about 60-70k per annum.
Monthly? 5-6k per month.
If you earn more than that then basically someone else would need to earn less than that as well.

Originally Posted by samarjitdhar

Actually its the other way round. It is only when the workers get their fair share and dues the country will be prosperous.

I think we have different definitions of being prosperous.

I think the country doesn't have money to give a fair share to the workers, and the money needs to go into the right direction to generate enough money for all of the 1.2billion to be prosperous.

Originally Posted by samarjitdhar

As I said, nobody advocates killing but what you said and I have highlighted in bold doesn't sound too right.

I'm glad that we agree on the killing part at least.
I know its not fair! And I never said that the world is a fair place, but that is what economics is and will always be, no use showing pseudo moral concerns.

[samarjitdhar]

Originally Posted by SLK

I think the country doesn't have money to give a fair share to the workers, and the money needs to go into the right direction to generate enough money for all of the 1.2billion to be prosperous.

I know its not fair! And I never said that the world is a fair place, but that is what economics is and will always be, no use showing pseudo moral concerns.

Yup. But very difficult to go and explain this to a not so highly educated contract worker looking out for himself and his family. I am not entirely sure that they will buy the line of reasoning that Ambani needs to spend Rs 10 lakh upwards monthly for lighting up his Antilla while the worker cannot afford medicines for his child for the greater good and prosperity of the nation. Maybe MSIL can try some sort of community flogging every week to drive home that message. Part of an Econ 101 course on the Manesar campus. That and Vaastu . A Vaastu compliant Swift will be a record of sorts.

In the case of MSIL, the only direction where the money has actually moved is the Suzuki headquarters in Japan and the bank accounts of the Suzuki family. While we debate that some workers could die because they couldn't afford medicines maybe but when it comes to our own selves we indignantly demand fairness for everything. That is the irony of it.

[born_free]

There has been passionate discussion on this thread and I am happy that the discussions are held in true spirit.

I personally feel that whatever happened inside Maruti can have negative effects on the economic development of state.

There is research paper in internet which investigates the downfall of West Bengal from a
being one of the richest state in 1965 to its current not so good postion.
One of the reasons it mentions is labor issues for the decline of industry in WB.

I understand there may be Bhpians from the West Bengal who may not agree to this but I also hope there is nothing offensive or personal in my posts.

I have done my higher studies in this state and so have natural curiosity as external observer.

Full article can be read at

http://www.econ.ucla.edu/people/pape.../lahiri319.pdf

From the Abstract
In this paper we study the economic evolution between 1960 and 1995 of two states in India — Maharashtra and West Bengal. During this period West Bengal, which was one of the two richest states in India in 1960, has gone from a relative per capita income of about 105 percent of Maharashtra to a relative income of around 69 percent.

Our diagnostic analysis reveals that a large part of the blame for West Bengal’s development woes can be attributed to: (a) low aggregate productivity (b) poorly functioning labor markets and
sectoral misallocations.

We find that sectoral productivity and labor market allocation wedges were strongly correlated with political developments in West Bengal, namely the
increasing vote share of the leftist parties.

Conclusion

In this paper, we have contrasted the development paths of two Indian states, West Bengal and Maharashtra, between 1960 and the mid-1990s. Starting from an initial position of about 5 percent greater per capita output than Maharashtra, West Bengal’s per capita output had dropped to about 69 percent of Maharashtra by 1993.

Manufacturing, in particular, appeared to lose ground in West Bengal. Our relative levels accounting suggests that differences in TFP account for about 60 percent of the gap between West Bengal and Maharashtra, relative
to their positions in 1961.

Human capital accounts for a little more than 20 percent of the
gap and physical capital accounts for the remainder.
We then turn to model-based diagnostic tests, building on the work of Cole and Ohanian; Chari, Kehoe, and McGrattan; and Mulligan. Our tests suggest that productivity differences - attributable to both TFP and human capital - account for about 3/4 of the gap between the states.

The remainder is likely to be due to problems in the labor market in West Bengal. In particular, there appear to have been some factor(s) that raised wages in West Bengal above the levels dictated by the neoclassical growth model’s first order conditions. The strong correlations of our estimated labor market and productivity wedges with the vote share of the Leftist parties in West Bengal suggest that increasing labor power during this period in
West Bengal may have been the proximate cause of the diverging economic performance of the two states.

While the diagnostic exercises in the paper suggest that the problems are likely to be in the labor market, in order to assess the quantitative importance of this margin one needs to formalize and quantify a political-economy model in which declining investment and output can coexist with rising labor power for relatively sustained periods of time in a voting environment. This is the subject of our future work in this area.

[samarjitdhar]

Originally Posted by born_free

There has been passionate discussion on this thread and I am happy that the discussions are held in true spirit.

I personally feel that whatever happened inside Maruti can have negative effects on the economic development of state.

There is research paper in internet which investigates the downfall of West Bengal from a
being one of the richest state in 1965 to its current not so good postion.
One of the reasons it mentions is labor issues for the decline of industry in WB.

I understand there may be Bhpians from the West Bengal who may not agree to this but I also hope there is nothing offensive or personal in my posts.

I have done my higher studies in this state and so have natural curiosity as external observer.

Full article can be read at

http://www.econ.ucla.edu/people/pape.../lahiri319.pdf

No offense taken. I was expecting the communist angle to drop in given the city I hail from. As I have stated earlier I am not one nor there is any love lost between me and the communists here. Since time immemorial I have always been with war with them actually. But I don't raise my hand in salute with the other hand on my heart to say that. The problem is the extremist form of capitalism that has sadly taken over many nations including India expects unquestionable and blind allegiance to this extremist form of capitalism while openly shunning communism or any other ism which could have a divergent viewpoint.

Coming to the study you have quoted, I happened to browse through it and what it seems like it quite accurately shows the downfall of manufacturing industries in West Bengal during the most part of its communist rule backing it up with the right facts, figures and graphs (correct me if I am wrong in this presumption). However one thing we should not ignore is that statistics are like bikinis. They hide far more than they reveal. Did this study cover why an extreme version of a leftist movement such as communism took over West Bengal like that? What were the primary reasons behind that? Its not that one fine day all Bengalis out here woke up and decided that they would become communists? History has repetitively shown us that when a fairly large group of people feel that they are being exploited due to certain policies or laws then there is a backlash. This backlash generally takes some grotesque form which is always harmful as we see in the case of MSIL. The rise of communism in the erstwhile USSR or the rise of fascism through the third Reich in Deutscheland and Mussolini in Italy after their back breaking economic hardships in the 1930s are resultants of such extreme reactions. More recently we have the examples of Islamic fundamentalists who are killing in the name of religion. The result of such extreme backlashes sow the seeds of even more backlashes. In my view one of them is the Ayn Randism after the rise of the communists. A more recent example is the rise of the extreme far right and left parties in Eastern Europe and Greece because of the economic mayhem they are going through. If one were to do a root cause analysis of the causes that give rise to such extremism we find that it is due to the extreme economic hardships faced by the commoner that reason loses to emotion. Unless we have a wholesome policy to address that instead of piecemeal approaches which reward only the select few including the biggest shareholders, this problem is not going to go away. I know we have gone quite here so let me bring this out in context of MSIL.

Rightly or wrongly the contract workers felt that they are being short changed by MSIL even though they were doing the same amount of work. The problem festered for months and culminated in an extreme reaction where unfortunately a life was lost needlessly. Instead of addressing the root cause now MSIL is talking about this

Maruti Suzuki seeks help of astrologer to correct vaastu at Manesar plant - The Times of India

Rattled by the violence at Manesar plant, Japanese car maker Maruti Suzuki has sought the help of a vedic astrologer from Bangalore to help sort out the vaastu at the Haryana unit.

and this

Haryana offers gunmen to Maruti officials - The Times of India

In a bid to boost the morale of officials of Maruti Suzuki India's Manesar plant, Haryana government has offered to provide gunmen to the company's staff for security.

Pray how would any of this help. Adding gunmen within factory premises? What about the German shepherds? Is MSIL running a factory or a concentration camp? They have a right to fire workers who do not accept their pay package and allow legal action to be taken against those who caused the mayhem recently and they should do so. But with the solutions they are proposing they can never ensure that the new set of workers would be feeling totally chirpy all the time with the low pay they are being given and no more violence would take place ever again specially when those guns from those gunmen can be easily snatched. Humans are unpredictable and imperfect by nature. Although that particular school of economics I have talked about earlier would like to have it the other way round but unfortunately nature isn't that way. One has to strike a balance and come to a mutually acceptable solution which buys some long term peace and not score some short term goals. Till now from everybody that has supported MSIL blindly I have not heard one single rational workable solution which will let MSIL operate in relative peace. Also one thing we should keep in mind that whatever greater purpose and goals are being cited (I am not sure what they are as they have not been described crisply out here) for paying workers subsistence level salaries while telling them that Somalia is worse of, the only thing we manage to do is reduce the relative prosperity of a nation. Telling them that they must suffer for some intangible greater good which they simply don't understand and see is only going to fester more resentment. What should we be telling them? You have no right to marry and/or reproduce because you were not born as lucky? As they continue living from hand to mouth, more and more people start relying on government dole, subsidies and yes free power including power theft. We have seen the results of that already haven't we in the past two days . So really this brand of capitalism being propounded here has clearly not worked for any of us except for maybe the Ambanis who have a gigantic backup power supply to light up their palace.

[download2live]

Good move or bad move?
I feel sorry for the workers who did not indulge in violence but are facing the music.

No pay today for 2000 staff at Maruti's Manesar plant - The Times of India

[.sushilkumar]

Not exactly the representative of the affected plant but never the less , interview highlights one thing clearly, workers should not have resorted to violence. Some thing which we all are against on forum as well. this interview clears one thing which i have always maintained "Their gurgaon plant is functioning normally because the union there is controlled by MSIL management " . Another point worth noting in interview is the functioning of labor department. quoted below

When workers file for a union at the labour department, information immediately reaches the management that these are the names of the workers who want to start a union. The management then starts to torture those workers.
The biggest problem here is the labour department. The management is only doing its job. But the labour department is for the labour force not the management. The opposite is happening here. The labour department is not safeguarding the welfare of the workers but looking out for the interests of the management.

‘Finishing off unions is not a permanent solution’ | Firstpost

[VindyWheels]

Hi Samarjit,

Appreciate your taking out so much time and giving a counter point of view to the majority here. I always thought that this discussion will move towards capitalism and communism and rightly so in my opinion.

Just one clarification regarding MSL though many seem to have mentioned earlier too. You keep talking about contract workers, but isnt it the well paid permament workers who form the majority of the mob involved in the attack and got suspended? Atleast that is what I read.

Cheers

Vindy

[Slick]

Sad thing, This violence has done to the workers is that instead of highlighting their plight it has made the nation angry, Rightly so too, but fact remains that organizations time and again exploit labour and make them struggle even for minimum amount of compensation.

I have come across cases where the company offers 1L as VRS compensation to a worker earning 20K/month after shutting a factory to a worker while posting Annual profits of nearly 200Cr and citing lack of funds in the court of law.

How do you justify that.

MSIL had a role in the unrest which will now get lost in all the chaos after the violence.

While the people responsible for the Violence should be punished harshly GOVT. also needs to see in to the practices and process implemeted by MSIL, so as to find the root cause of the incidence.

Suzuki is a Japanese company while the labour are our own, We need to see if our people are being exploited beyond their limit.

While Suzuki is providing employment to Indians it is also getting immense benefits from the relationship by using India as a marketplace. The least the GOI can do is hold them accountable.

[samarjitdhar]

Originally Posted by VindyWheels

Just one clarification regarding MSL though many seem to have mentioned earlier too. You keep talking about contract workers, but isnt it the well paid permament workers who form the majority of the mob involved in the attack and got suspended? Atleast that is what I read.

When I refer to contract workers my point was only the massive pay difference they have had to endure with respect to the permanent workers. There is nothing wrong in having contract workers however there are certain guidelines under central labor laws. But the sole purpose of using contract workers has reduced to squeezing down the pay for these guys just because they are on contract. Aside from salaries please remember they do not receive any benefits at all. Given the fact that they do the same work one has to wonder why the disparity. One can get the concept of contract workers given the vagaries of business and the demand pattern of products being manufactured. In MSIL's case the demand has only moved in one direction, that is up. Imagine the same situation at our workplace if any one of us find out that we get paid only one-third of what our peers get. The fit that will be thrown, the indignation and eventually moving on to a better job. In our case given our education and social strata we can find a better job with relative ease but in the case of the lowly paid contract workers, not much options. To top it all there is absolutely no concept of any social security for them. Don't you think MSIL knows this reality and feels they can pay whatever peanuts they think is right since they know these guys will be forced to work for them anyway? How is that not exploitation? If MSIL feigns ignorance about such basic facts then really they are living in an alternate reality. While murder cannot be justified then even exploitation should not be justified in the name of some greater good and benefit of the economy and what not. Otherwise folks who wage wars would claim that they killed a lot of innocent people for some intangible benefit that we won't understand.

However with respect to this particular incident it is indeed reported that permanent workers were involved too. But it is very important there must be an impartial investigation (generally doesn't happen in our country) to find out all the guilty chaps. Be it permanent or contract, all those who were involved in this mayhem must be punished under the rule of law.

[VindyWheels]

Ok, so you believe that inspite of all the reports that the 100 odd who got suspended were well-paid permanent workers, its still the issues of contract workers which led to the murder or that actually there were only some permanent workers in the mob, but media somehow wants to say that only permanent workers were involved?

But why would media prefer permanent workers to be indicted? Again management's nefarious plans is it?

Cheers

Vindy

[srishiva]

There are so many contract teachers working for State governments that I know for multiple states. The pay scales are also vastly different.
So, how can the govt solve the contract workers case?

[svsantosh]

Having a manufacturing industry 'daddy' I can relate to my childhood experience(s)...!! :(

The labor Vs Management fight is the under current of any manufacturing industry in India - all one (both sides) needs is a needle to make a mountain of it - frankly majority of people on any side hardly care about the loss of salary - EGO is the magic word here and everything is taken very-very personally in this industry. A 'slap on the wrist' can lead to a severed artery, a drop of a spanner can lead to a FIR. Labour Courts rule here!

I can cite some examples that I heard of during my younger years...

Note - (a) Tools-Down - started by workers AGAINST management
(b) Lock-Out - Started by mgt AGAINST Worker Unions

1) Rasam (a South-Indian Soup to be mixed with chawal/rice Akin to Sambar) had less salt - entire Ashok Leyland Plant-1 in Hosur had tools-down situation for few days

---- Fallout of bad settlement during previous salary-revision talks

2) Increase of meal-coupon from 50-Paisa to 75-Paisa (not in 1960's - but a few years back) - entire factory (a medium scale factory supplying to TVS) tools-down (Diwali Bonus talk fallout)

3) Some 'Cham-cha' (tattletale) Insider workers union tipped of mgt abt a impending strike call by union leaders the next day - both Ashok Leyland plants in Hosur 'Locked-Out' by mgt.

Some misc pointers - 99% of workers have no Idea - ZILCH - of what goes on in the factory other their 5-foot workstation/assembly area. IT IS/WAS/WILL BE the UNION LEADERS who call the SHOTS - DEEPLY connected with Politicians/Local leaders/gangs/mafia - they are NUMERO UNO and top mgt of any company have been brought down to their knees on more than one occasion.

Union leaders RIVAL amongst them-selves and younger/new gen have known to be eliminated by old timers - my dad personally saw a example - TELCO - Jamshedpur is much large than the manesar plant and frankly its a cosmopilitan city in its own sense - 1000's of people walking in and out and no one knows whats going in - its too large! One such leader candidate was eliminated by placing a couple of steel rolls (sheet metal used to make cars/etc) over him inside the warehouse the size of a small city block. Not until a few weeks later then the stock was moved they found that poor guy.

Hooliganism is NOT NEW to Indian Manufacturing industry and frankly one of the MAIN reasons why NASSCOM/IT/ITES Will NOT approve of any such Unions in the white collar industry...

-------Oh and on the topic of Contract workers - What contract workers - they are no more than the 'salt in rasam' or the '25 paisa' food coupon-------

There are no different from the fly on the wall for union leaders - they dont get to Vote in union elections nor are they permanent workers - why should the union leader or mgt care a damn about them!!!

Its been the EGO issue always - and if any one is SINGLED OUT on either side - THEY will be ELIMINATED - whatever the cost, production be DAMMNED. Production be damned - by both sides. Both Mgt and workers care a damn about the sales - they will straighten out the differences before a bolt is turned on...!!

---------

On the issue of justice - what justice - they HAD to throw a RUCKUS for some Sinister REASON and the poor dude HAD IT - no one will be ever brought to court.

And in the story of Union Vs Mgt EGO Clash - there is One person who bores the Brunt - The owners/shareholders!! Eventually Union and Mgt are both 'employees/workers' for the Owners/chairman/directors and if crap hits the roof - they will sell or shift the whole business.

PS - I can assure crap hasnt hit the roof yet, these things are common in every manufacturing town. My town has 'lots' of industries and I live among unions and mgt - this incident of 1 person dead is nothing!! It WILL be FORGOTTEN in the LONG RUN for the betterment of all...

[LDJ]

And to think the Top Management Officials at Maruti think of this as the remedy... words just fail me!

Maruti Suzuki goes the astrology way; leaving no stone unturned to restart production at Manesar plant | CarTrade.com

[samarjitdhar]

Originally Posted by VindyWheels

Ok, so you believe that inspite of all the reports that the 100 odd who got suspended were well-paid permanent workers, its still the issues of contract workers which led to the murder or that actually there were only some permanent workers in the mob, but media somehow wants to say that only permanent workers were involved?

But why would media prefer permanent workers to be indicted? Again management's nefarious plans is it?

Cheers

Vindy

Leave alone what I believe because it hardly matters. What matters is facts which, forget about the media not even our law enforcement agencies bother to bring out correctly and impartially. It is also a fact that MSIL was having issues with the current set of workers (permanent & contract) regarding recognition of the union and wages for the contract workers. The contract workers actually were not part of the union as they are not allowed to be under current labor laws. However the wage issue for the contract workers was in the charter of the union's demands aside from making them permanent. Now I don't know what would be the so called nefarious plans of the MSIL management here about how to resolve their issues with the workers or who to punish but of late I believe those plans include using principles of Vaastu at the top of the list.

[Slick]

Originally Posted by VindyWheels

Just one clarification regarding MSL though many seem to have mentioned earlier too. You keep talking about contract workers, but isnt it the well paid permament workers who form the majority of the mob involved in the attack and got suspended? Atleast that is what I read.

I read in TOI that the grouse of the workers was the treatment being meted to the workers with regards to leave policy and salary cut in case of unplanned leaves, which amounted to more than 1 day.

Abusive Language used by the management was also reported in the same article.

While I cannot confirm that this was the main reason I ASSUME that the violence was a result of long term friction between workers or a major section of them and the Management.

For me it is a case of "Stretching it till it breaks" kind of policy used which led to this.

The 90 odd who have been caught should be awarded maximum possible punishment as frankly a huge and long lasting strike was the right solution rather than violence.