[ankur_fox]

Throws some light on the manufacturing conditions here ... I've read the maruti story and the work done by them for their employees, this really sounds like sabotage.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

if a worker has died. i am sure it would have been passed on as a accident.

What do you think the law is a joke?
You burn someone and walk away, even if a worker? Its not that easy as you make it sound.

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

I call it as short sightedness because we are seeing only one side of the coin out of sympathy for the GM. even i am also sympathetic towards family of GM but what has happened cannot be reversed. need of the hour is to fix the system for once and all instead what's happening is suppression of workers.

No! that is not true. What is the other side of the coin? I want to know. And then I want to see if I was in that situation, would I have started burning the plant I work for.

Did the workers expect to continue working after burning the plant and beating up management? and if they didn't want to work anyways, they should have just left, strike, whatever. BUT instead they wanted to inflict damage before they are out and that attitude is the problem and should not be tolerated at any cost.

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

those involved in violence are already behind bars with most probably their careers over. let the law takes it;s own course here on

What did they expect? to walk away happily after trying to kill people?

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

but what about other 2900, who were not involved in any violence. MSIL is trying to victimize them by issuing statements like " All workers will be sacked and fresh workers will be hired from areas Outside haryana" as if haryana is cultivating goons.

Is Haryana cultivating goons? No but the progress in neighboring areas has made the people here goons! Try it.

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

aren ;t workers in other plant also from same state working peacefully.

Its a fairly new plant, working at full capacity. The unions know, how sensitive it is for Maruti to keep this running! and have been taking advantage of that.

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

it;s a open secret that union leaders of other plant are hand in gloves with mgmt,

So basically, you are saying that the workers at the other plant are also being exploited and are peaceful only because union leaders are hand in gloves with the management?

I think you are simply determined to favour the workers as you think they are always suppressed by the management. I don't think we are discussing communism here. You may fovour communism and I' d favour capitalism but that doesn't change the facts at the Maruti plant.

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

Still Violence should not happened under all circumstance . it was collective frustration of systems failure and constant pressure of a uncertain future which resulted in this violence.

Thats what I'm saying! either you live by the rules of the civilized world or you don't. If you break the rules by killing and burning, no rule should be applied in taking action against you.

I don't understand, how would the workers' position have been worse if they just went on strike. The goons amongst the workers did the damage, if it was a universal feeling all the 3000 would have been out with arms.

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

Oh i forget they are petty ITI workers meant to be exploited and left in lurch why care for such low profile people when we have DGM and GM admitted & than All 3000 workers are murderers why care for them .

First, It is not about ITI Vs Engineers Vs Management. Just because There are more ITI workers willing to work at lower salaries in current time doesn't mean the Management and Engineers will keep on getting higher salaries. If the recent survey about unemployment data is correct then we already have more Post Grad/Grads/MBA unemployed than lower education people. Atleast in those hard times when management gets the firing (hire and Fire policy for Managers) the ITI people will be the safest. In any case India right now is open opportunity country where no one is stopping others to get ahead in life.

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

In hindsight because a person has died, we are ready to hang 3000 workers.

The law doesn't differentiate between one murderer who murdered 1000 guys or 3000 murderers who murder just one guy.

If it is true that all the 3000 people were involved in the riots and were responsible for killing of one person then all 3000 should be rounded up and presented in court of law on the charges of murder.

In Today's TOI it was published that the cause of Start of fight "could not have been the CASTEIST remark", because the supervisor himself was a DALIT who could not have made a derogatory remark against the fellow workers. (Maruti Side of Story). Now if that is true, we are sure looking at either Red Flags in plant or an organized racket in Gurgaon/Manesar belt.

[rajeshchand]

Originally Posted by 1100D

I missed a crucial word in my last sentence (Good catch). Read it as below :-

"But then, would that ALSO be legitimate? No."

But then, was the Sepoy mutiny legitimate? No. Do we agree with it, yes. Couldn't it be resolved through dialogue etc? Anyones guess.

Well violence do not justify anything, whatever the reason or requirement is, if we agree to all violent rebellious causes, then it is time we gave independence to at least 10 states of India who are rebelling against the Federal nature of our governance.

[samarjitdhar]

Originally Posted by anu21v

If it is true that all the 3000 people were involved in the riots and were responsible for killing of one person then all 3000 should be rounded up and presented in court of law on the charges of murder.

Although its not probable all 3000 were involved but this sounds like an excellent plan. As a precautionary measure all 3000 should be rounded up and put in Tihar. After this the entire Suzuki clan can fly down from Japan and start working in Manesar to fulfill the Swift and DZire delivery commitments. Every penny of their fat dividends will be worth it. After all nothing can be better if one gets the Swift hand built and delivered by an actual board member of Suzuki .

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by anu21v

The law doesn't differentiate between one murderer who murdered 1000 guys or 3000 murderers who murder just one guy.

If it is true that all the 3000 people were involved in the riots and were responsible for killing of one person then all 3000 should be rounded up and presented in court of law on the charges of murder.

Unfortunately, even if the handful of actual murderers are identified and charged any half decent lawyer will get them off with a rap on the knuckles on the plea that it was part of mob frenzy. Prosecution on charges of a planned conspiracy will be very tough.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by rajeshchand

if we agree to all violent rebellious causes, then it is time we gave independence to at least 10 states of India who are rebelling against the Federal nature of our governance.

That is quite .

And while we are at it, seeing the way things are going and some states are acting, I do have a fear India in her present form may not see the 100th Independence day.

[liferocks]

It is indeed very sad and unfortunate incident which has happened. All of us surely and strongly condemn violence. Violence is no solution to any problem.

Yes labour class or for that matter any working class is the exploited clan. Management is only interested in cost cutting and squeezing work out of them. Labour laws are not effective and also not implemented. Sadly the work culture (rather lack of it) does not have any ethics. HR is the department which proves its mettle by hiring at lowest wages.

However none of anything can justify this act of terrorism. I call this terrorism because people were terrorised by what they saw, experienced and the trauma they have gone through. They were beaten to be killed. Most of the admitted had head injuries and multiple fractures (as per news channels and print media).

Now if suzuki wants they can move out to Gujrat or any other state. But they also have to introspect.
Net result is blow to the economy of state and of nation also.

[.sushilkumar]

Originally Posted by SLK

What do you think the law is a joke?
You burn someone and walk away, even if a worker? Its not that easy as you make it sound.

Sir , Law is a joke in our country . tell me how many politicians has been convicted in their life time . I was robbed in broad day light with a knife on my 8 months old son;s neck in front of GIP mall in noida with police man standing 100 meters away. he even refused to acknowledge my presence there . In gurgaon itself a BMW rammed into a indigo killing a pregnant lady . her husband is helpless because the guy driving BMW is influential.

Originally Posted by SLK

No! that is not true. What is the other side of the coin? I want to know. And then I want to see if I was in that situation, would I have started burning the plant I work for.

Did the workers expect to continue working after burning the plant and beating up management? and if they didn't want to work anyways, they should have just left, strike, whatever. BUT instead they wanted to inflict damage before they are out and that attitude is the problem and should not be tolerated at any cost.

Sir, the Other side of the coin is workers. their side which nobody is willing to heard . this was only option left for them to be heard . they did resorted to violence to be heard. this is most unfortunate as well . has the top level have heard them and acted, G M would have been alive today .

Originally Posted by SLK

What did they expect? to walk away happily after trying to kill people?

they will get away thanks to out toothless law. mob has no face & this is most unfortunate fact of the whole fiasco .

Originally Posted by SLK

Is Haryana cultivating goons? No but the progress in neighboring areas has made the people here goons! Try it.

Its a fairly new plant, working at full capacity. The unions know, how sensitive it is for Maruti to keep this running! and have been taking advantage of that.

Sir, clearly that was MSIL thinking That;s why MSIL initially refuse to employ people from surrounding areas , when the land was acquired from farmers of the region. talk about taking advantage , now same people are supporting them because these workers are their only source of income via way of rents and all .

Originally Posted by SLK

So basically, you are saying that the workers at the other plant are also being exploited and are peaceful only because union leaders are hand in gloves with the management?

I think you are simply determined to favour the workers as you think they are always suppressed by the management. I don't think we are discussing communism here. You may fovour communism and I' d favour capitalism but that doesn't change the facts at the Maruti plant.

i guess i have put that clearly in black and white . i am not favoring communism or capitalism here. i am favoring what;s right here , except for the unfortunate death of GM .

Originally Posted by SLK

Thats what I'm saying! either you live by the rules of the civilized world or you don't. If you break the rules by killing and burning, no rule should be applied in taking action against you.

I don't understand, how would the workers' position have been worse if they just went on strike. The goons amongst the workers did the damage, if it was a universal feeling all the 3000 would have been out with arms.

I disagree sir. Law doesn ;t take action keeping in view what law you broke. you kill some body on road and all you get is 2 years in prison . you kill somebody for personnel matter , you get life time. why selective punishment , at the end of day a life is lost . you just need a good lawyer to argue on your behalf . like of kasab are still enjoying govt hospitality despite killing 200 + people in full public view with a live tv show to their credit .

Again i am not promoting lawlessness but violence is happening due to collective failure of the system . rules are simple " if you have the moolah you are king " . we resort to settle matters ourselves because we know that we won ;t get justice in this life time .

[SLK]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

Sir, the Other side of the coin is workers. their side which nobody is willing to heard . this was only option left for them to be heard . they did resorted to violence to be heard. this is most unfortunate as well . has the top level have heard them and acted, G M would have been alive today .

I'm repeating again. 'What' is the other side? I know its the workers' story. 'What' is 'that story' that you are supporting to justify murder, even if by a mob?

Maybe I'm missing something from the thread, but I haven't really read one solid factual argument, you can imagine all you can but what is the fact that lead the workers to do this? Its not a statement as general as collective system failure. B'coz that same system has failed for me too, I can in my own world argue that killing certain people is the only solution I see, then what? go around killing all of the parliamentarians?

[drive_factor]

I had visited the Manesar plan 3 years ago and the worker hardly looked exploited. On the contrary their body language and demeanour seemed intimidating. I was silently pitying the shopfloor managers. Needless to add most of them looked prosperous and took upon the job as a birthright.

Meanwhile, Maruti workers want lakh a month - Hindustan Times

A five-fold increase in basic salary, a monthly conveyance allowance of more than Rs. 10,000, a laundry allowance of Rs. 3,000 and a gift with every new car launch. These and a house for everybody and cheaper home loans for those who want to build their own houses were some of the demands the Maruti Suzuki India Workers’ Union at Manesar placed before the management on April 18.

And yes Suzuki San while you are at it, can you also find a few fair, domesticated wives for the eligible lads? Arigato Gozaimasu.

Currently, a permanent worker at Manesar gets a basic pay of Rs. 5,100, plus Rs. 1,775 for conveyance and Rs. 260 for laundry. With house rent allowance, bonuses and incentives, the gross pay comes to about Rs. 23,350 a month.

That compares very favourably with TML where a shop floor workman with 5~7 years under his belt maxes out Rs 16~18K.

Wait! It gets better!!

The demands do not end with salary hikes. The union also wanted the number of sick and casual leaves to be doubled, besides 35 days of privilege leave, instead of 20 — altogether 75 days of leave in a year.
If the weekly holiday on Sunday, national holidays and two weeks of mandatory factory shutdown are taken into account, the number of leaves swells to over 150 days a year. In effect, a worker at Manesar would be working every alternate day.

Impeccable logic these murderers bring to the negotiations table.

I recall in 90's Maruti wages/salaries ratio was about 13% of turnover whereas TML was under 7%.

My condolences to the family of the manager who was murdered.

[vibbs]

Originally Posted by drive_factor

Meanwhile, Maruti workers want lakh a month - Hindustan Times

Yes I read that in today's paper. Either this is all made up or the workers are out of their minds. One lakh a month? How many engineers get that sort of package? I am surprised we still have people here who instead of condemning the incident outrightly want to see 'the other side of the coin' No matter how provocative the other side is, it still doesn't warrant burning down a human. Whatever credibility they had for their demands and agitation, vanished the moment they took law in their hands and went on a rampage.

[partha379]

Given that wages have been quoted in the thread, can the wages of Temporary workers also be quoted? While we are at it, can the ratio of Temporary to Permanent staff also be quoted and how long have they remained as temporary staff? This will clarify a few things.

And a general request to all - please accept that supporting workers doesn't mean supporting violence/murder. It would be good to move away from this "You are with us or the terrorists, Bushisms".

All I want to convey here is that treat the violence with all the seriousness it deserves - but don't use this as a reason to claim management is super clean and all the problems in the plant is the result of militant workers/communists.

[ramzsys]

Originally Posted by vibbs

Yes I read that in today's paper. Either this is all made up or the workers are out of their minds. One lakh a month? How many engineers get that sort of package? .

Our mainstream news media just can't stop sensationalizing anything

From Firstpost news article :

"Maruti officials said that it was a normal practice for workers to inflate their wage demands and then negotiate with much lesser wages"

http://www.firstpost.com/business/so...ce-383646.html

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by drive_factor

Maruti workers want lakh a month - Hindustan Times

What is wrong if the driver in IOC is paid double that !!