[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by 1100D

In the developed world,.....

A big question to ask again. What were the security guards doing? ...they dont have the capacity or capability to curb real incidents. Or were they completely overpowered by the sheer collective will.

Is it OK to take law and order in ones hand even if he is in dire situations? MSIL is not located in a remote jungle. It is very much in urban location very close to the capital of the country. Any 'oppressed labor' can file complaints in relevant labor department or NHRC against MSIL if he feels that he is being exploited. Violence is not called for in any circumstances.

Security guards are for security of the campus and not to control riots. I am sure they would have fled the scene to save their own lives. And it was not collective will, it sound too positive. It was a rioting mob.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by lurker

hear that there were wage negotiations which was one aspect. Even if MSIL gives a Rs. 15000/month raise across the board to each and every one of its 3000 labour force, would still amount to $10 million/annum at current exchange rates, far lower than the $453 million or so that they paid to the 'owners' Suzuki as royalties for IP or some pretext.

Like nearly everybody else, I was shocked by the turn of events in MSIL. The thing is, in my opinion, the employees union has lost whatever public sympathy they could have garnered by resorting to violence, arson and to top it off, the brutal murder of the HR Manager.

In cases of workers' unions v/s the management violence does not lead to any benefit to either party. The end does not justify the means. These morons have just damaged their cause.

[Gansan]

^^Don't count on the sympathy part too much. I see posters in support of the Union springing up here in Chennai. This will snowball in to a political issue in no time. And elections are around the corner.

[R2D2]

^^^

I am actually referring to sympathy from public at large, we can surely expect politicos of all hues and employee unions to make the most of this opportunity to not just slam the management of MSIL but the Govt for 'wrong economic policies, protection of worker rights and what have you.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by rajeshchand

Do you really know the meaning of "collective action" by each and every individual of this country to resolve their issues, it means "Civil War" so be learned what it actually means, there is a process in a democratic set up and that takes its own course

What if the country in question has a democracy reduced to utter proportions of ridicule.

If you look back into history, there has been countless "corrective" situations that rose out of inability to arrive at a resolution. Every uprising in history, including our own, was a "corrective" measure.

Originally Posted by rajeshchand

where in everyones opinion is heard not just the management or of the trade unions.

In a perfect world, yes, why not? But tell me, does it really happen, or the union top brass is bought out (its done in a sophisticated manner so as to not make it apparent immediately). Or even the poorer workers have no choice but to resume income.

Originally Posted by rajeshchand

Collective action of the infamous Air India-Indian Airlines recent pilots strike, do you know what the demands were, they were outright flimsy to laughable for common man, but those are important issues for those, so were they agreed to,

This case is not about well-fed/bred Airline pilots who come from seemingly affluent backgrounds.

So each situation is different. Read the post above yours, will give one a good idea of what conditions these guys have to deal with, just because employment is scarce in our country and a lot many people willing to take it up, replacing the ones who can't. In the end the cycle continues.

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Is it OK to take law and order in ones hand even if he is in dire situations? Any 'oppressed labor' can file complaints in relevant labor department or NHRC against MSIL if he feels that he is being exploited. .

What if, the confidence in these bodies have reached to zero. How fast or effective are these bodies in protecting people who have limited monetary resources in comparison to the global majors.

[rajeshchand]

Originally Posted by 1100D

What if the country in question has a democracy reduced to utter proportions of ridicule.

If you look back into history, there has been countless "corrective" situations that rose out of inability to arrive at a resolution. Every uprising in history, including our own, was a "corrective" measure.

Yes, this is the typical Indian thinking, as long as it is someone else dying, i don't care, but when it is one of our own would you have been able to justify so loud, it is easier when you are on the other side of the fence of the sufferings.

[samarjitdhar]

Originally Posted by lurker

hear that there were wage negotiations which was one aspect. Even if MSIL gives a Rs. 15000/month raise across the board to each and every one of its 3000 labour force, would still amount to $10 million/annum at current exchange rates, far lower than the $453 million or so that they paid to the 'owners' Suzuki as royalties for IP or some pretext.

The Suzuki group is on the decline having its products being summarily dismissed in other parts of the world over the last few years. As a result a gargantuan share of their profits come from India. With Indian customers getting more and more options and becoming lets say more aspirational and quality conscious have started looking at other brands. I think Suzuki had hoped that they would dominate this one market totally like HM did and failed to reinvent themselves (hell they don't even have their own diesel engine and has to rely on Fiat all the time). The Suzuki sans back in Japan to maintain their lifestyles will have to squeeze whatever they can out of India. It is not wrong or illegal if they want to underpay their workers since that's their prerogative. But they should not whine when there are strikes or labor resentment. Obviously nobody expected that things will go totally out of control and a company official murdered in the process. The law has to take its course and the culprits brought to book for that crime. But if they expect that the central and state government should administer a collective self whipping of all workers regardless their involvement or not in this incident, then they are living in cuckoo land. It's a privately owned company and they will have to sort out their labor problems themselves. In fact they did try with some half-hearted steps like buying out the labor leaders from the previous strikes but then they should not be cry babies when they find that the previous solution didn't work. Blaming Indians and their work culture won't do because there are bigger business conglomerates who are running their businesses including manufacturing successfully everywhere in India including NCR. At this point I think the government should stop being arm twisted and let the law take its own course. No need to fall at their feet and beg for forgiveness and what not. If Suzuki feels that operating from India is not a good cost case they will leave and nobody can stop them. Why does the government need to interfere in the problems involving company matters? As for the point on unions, the Indian labor laws and the constitution allows for the existence of unions in certain industries for certain classes of employees. Its not an Indian feature, it is worldwide. That is not going to change. If Suzuki cannot operate in that environment they can very well relocate to some other planet where unions don't exist.

[lsjey]

I'm saddened by the senseless violence. I take a different view of the situation. From psychology. There is this well tested, emotional response called Lucifer Effect. It goes like this: There is no good or evil people, but the right circumstances creates them. Of-course there will be exceptions, but they are small.

This was first documented in an experiment that was conducted in Stanford. In this experiment, a group of random volunteers were divided into cops and prisoners in a staged prison. The experiment was shutdown after a couple of weeks. The reason, the cops had become very violent in their behavior with prisoners.

The conclusion, the separation of US Vs Them, and circumstances turn good people in to evil.

Here too in the MSIL manesar episode also I see Lucifer effect.

Do not mistake me as being soft on the workers or the management. Both the Union and the management should realize how psychology can help prevent such situations in future. Hopefully, HR groups of these companies learn.

lsjey

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by 1100D

What if, the confidence in these bodies have reached to zero. How fast or effective are these bodies in protecting people who have limited monetary resources in comparison to the global majors.

I believe it will be faster than current scenario where they are either on run or are in custody facing criminal charges. There are numerous ways of making oneself heard. As I said earlier violence in all cases is unaccepted.

I think I do not want to enlist the non-violent and effective means of protest here. I do not believe in such violent outburst and will never support this. .

[1100D]

Originally Posted by rajeshchand

Yes, this is the typical Indian thinking, as long as it is someone else dying, i don't care, but when it is one of our own would you have been able to justify so loud, it is easier when you are on the other side of the fence of the sufferings.

There are people on either side of the fence.

Moreover collateral damage is a given across most conflicts that spiral out of control, not limited to Indian thinking (let alone a typical one)

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

I think I do not want to enlist the non-violent and effective means of protest here. I do not believe in such violent outburst and will never support this. .

On a lighter note, the union could have joined hands with the management of a rival company and they would have happily sponsored and supported an agitation to its proper conclusion.

The cycle would have repeated with the rival company and in-turn everyone would be in check.

But then, would that be legitimate? No.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by 1100D

On a lighter note, the union could have joined hands with the management of a rival company and they would have happily sponsored and supported an agitation to its proper conclusion.

You never know. Last union leader was allegedly bribed by MSIL, these leaders could have been bribed by rivals to do something drastic to stop the production for at least a month.

[rajeshchand]

Originally Posted by 1100D

But then, would that be legitimate? No.

So the current method adopted is legitimate ?

[Dry Ice]

Maruti runs out of Swift and Dezire stocks.

We do not have any stock of Swift and DZire at our factory. About 10,000 cars of both the models are on transit and that is the inventory at present,” Maruti Suzuki India (MSI) Chief Operating Officer (Marketing and Sales) Mayank Pareek said.

The Hindu : Business / Companies : No stock of Swift, DZire

[.sushilkumar]

^^ strangely enough they have declined to stop the booking of swift and Dzire. greed !!!!!

So those who can wait may go and book .

latest update is that police has arrested some 90 + workers including union leader and they all in judicial custody getting interrogated by police. Any body knows what happened to those 60 workers who also got injured in scuffle with so called bouncers bought inside the conf room by mgmt to control workers ??

Originally Posted by Rahulkool

I am sorry but one person has not died, he was murdered. If 3000 people were actually conspired the murder then i dont see any thing wrong in punishing them.

Whether it was murder or some thing else is for the law to decide. we are neither judges not lawyers to pass on judgement.

Originally Posted by SLK

Shortsightedness? I call it my lack of imagination, where I can't imagine what could Maruti have done to get burnt/beaten and killed.

Are you purely speculating/ imagining on what must have happened that justified one person's death, or you know something that we don't?

I wonder what different is Maruti doing at a plant that is 30kms away from the other! which continues to run peacefully.

Lets talk facts! We have one person dead, many seriously injured, what are your facts that justify this?

Being economically/ socially weaker does not automatically justify these actions.

No where i said that being economically / socially weaker justify;s their actions, even in case of GM as well. already police has arrested some 90 + workers including union leader . do you think police has acted swiftly or people making so much hue and cry has made so much noise if a worker has died. i am sure it would have been passed on as a accident.

I call it as short sightedness because we are seeing only one side of the coin out of sympathy for the GM. even i am also sympathetic towards family of GM but what has happened cannot be reversed. need of the hour is to fix the system for once and all instead what;s happening is suppression of workers. those involved in violence are already behind bars with most probably their careers over. let the law takes it;s own course here on but what about other 2900 , who were not involved in any violence. MSIL is trying to victimize them by issuing statements like " All workers will be sacked and fresh workers will be hired from areas Outside haryana" as if haryana is cultivating goons. aren ;t workers in other plant also from same state working peacefully.

As for other plant plant;s peaceful operations goes, it is because there is no contract labor there and all are veterans with permanent positions in MSIL . moreover it;s a open secret that union leaders of other plant are hand in gloves with mgmt, Although there is a pressure on union leader there to join workers in manesar plant .

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Is it OK to take law and order in ones hand even if he is in dire situations? MSIL is not located in a remote jungle. It is very much in urban location very close to the capital of the country. Any 'oppressed labor' can file complaints in relevant labor department or NHRC against MSIL if he feels that he is being exploited. Violence is not called for in any circumstances.

This is what the crux of whole problem is. When the state fails to protect it;s citizens interests sufficiently , citizens are left with no option other than to retaliate .Clearly the system is not working like it should be else workers would n;t have taken law in to their hand . Still Violence should not happened under all circumstance . it was collective frustration of systems failure and constant pressure of a uncertain future which resulted in this violence.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by rajeshchand

So the current method adopted is legitimate ?

I missed a crucial word in my last sentence (Good catch). Read it as below :-

"But then, would that ALSO be legitimate? No."

But then, was the Sepoy mutiny legitimate? No. Do we agree with it, yes. Couldn't it be resolved through dialogue etc? Anyones guess.