[JKBKS]

Originally Posted by Kandisa

If they would have launched the MU-X even with the same engine as Vcross and priced it in sub-20 L segment, there would have been more interested people in India

The same feelings are being echoed by some people I know who are in the market for SUV and who can spend 30-35 lacs. They say they will rather buy a Fortuner by paying more (better reliability, resale, ASS etc) than buy an Isuzu at 27-28 lacs.

But they are willing to give Isuzu a try if its 20-21 lacs OTR. Not more than that.

It seems Isuzu has over estimated it brand pull/value while deciding the prices.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by A350XWB

The last generation Fortuner was selling like hot cakes even with 2 airbags (and nobody seem to complain even when the humble XUV was offering 6 airbags) and at a higher price point than the MU-X, till November last year.

When the Fortuner was launched the only real competition was the endeavor and the Pajero which was in some ways worse then the Fortuner. Today's market is different. The Current Fortuner and Endeavour are leagues ahead of their older versions, so people's expectations are different and choices are different. We cannot use older generation Fortuner to justify current MUX.

XUV was never and will never be a major competition to the Fortuner. Most people who can buy a 37+ lakh SUV comfortably will not consider an XUV as image is also a major criteria when you buy more expensive vehicles.

[A350XWB]

Originally Posted by Yeldo

Two airbags in a 20L vehicle somehow does not sound right!

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

XUV was never and will never be a major competition to the Fortuner. Most people who can buy a 37+ lakh SUV comfortably will not consider an XUV as image is also a major criteria when you buy more expensive vehicles.

Please read my post, which is a reply, specific to the highlighted sentence above. Who told anything about XUV being competition to Fortuner or Endy? Not many people bothered when Toyota launched the automatic Fortuner at ~27L ex-showroom with only 2 airbags and when Isuzu launched something similar at ~26L (after a year and a half, of course), suddenly people realize that this is not right. That was the whole point and not one vehicle being a competition to the other.

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by A350XWB

Not many people bothered when Toyota launched the automatic Fortuner at ~27L ex-showroom with only 2 airbags and when Isuzu launched something similar at ~26L (after a year and a half, of course), suddenly people realize that this is not right.

I agree, but

# If Isuzu was half serious, they should have launched the newer/refreshed version in India, instead of dumping the phased out version.

# They should have priced it more competitively to gain space in market and then increase its prices [just like the Fortuner did]

Many people are interested in getting a 20/22L SUV but there is nothing really in this price bracket [i.e. above the Scorpio/Storme and below the Fortuner/Endeavour] and this is where there was opportunity. Something closer to Fortuner's price and people will simply walk over to Toyota and spend 5L more, but spending 10L more will make people think. This is precisely what I and a lot of people are thinking.

[nvldvr]

Originally Posted by A350XWB

Please read my post, which is a reply, specific to the highlighted sentence above. Who told anything about XUV being competition to Fortuner or Endy? Not many people bothered when Toyota launched the automatic Fortuner at ~27L ex-showroom with only 2 airbags and when Isuzu launched something similar at ~26L (after a year and a half, of course), suddenly people realize that this is not right. That was the whole point and not one vehicle being a competition to the other.

People were OK with Toyota because Toyota has a huge brand value and image of supreme reliability, earned world wide over many years. However, who is Isuzu? And where is Isuzu in India? Even after reasonable number of years selling passenger cars in India, they have managed hardly 20 odd dealerships. I am sure outside of this forum, the percentage of prospective Fortuner owners having knowledge of Isuzu's presence in India would be miniscule. And for Isuzu to think of competing with Toyoya with an outdated product, when Toyota has the new Fortuner with all bells and whistles including seven airbags, is laughable in my opinion, 5-6 lakhs price differential notwithstanding.

Even by Isuzu's standards, it offers 6 airbags in its top variant in other markets including Thailand etc. What makes it think that Indian customers would make do with 2 airbags, even after paying 26 lakhs ex showroom? If it still thinks India as a third world market where safety features can be compromised, then it needs to be taught a lesson. I am sure the markets would anyways do that.

On a different note, can someone please list and justify at least 5 good reasons for buying MUX over XUV? One reason of course is the proper 4x4 with low range gears. Any others?

[asit.kulkarni93]

Originally Posted by nvldvr

People were OK with Toyota because Toyota has a huge brand value and image of supreme reliability, earned world wide over many years. However, who is Isuzu? And where is Isuzu in India? Even after reasonable number of years selling passenger cars in India, they have managed hardly 20 odd dealerships. I am sure outside of this forum, the percentage of prospective Fortuner owners having knowledge of Isuzu's presence in India would be miniscule. And for Isuzu to think of competing with Toyoya with an outdated product, when Toyota has the new Fortuner with all bells and whistles including seven airbags, is laughable in my opinion, 5-6 lakhs price differential notwithstanding.

Even by Isuzu's standards, it offers 6 airbags in its top variant in other markets including Thailand etc. What makes it think that Indian customers would make do with 2 airbags, even after paying 26 lakhs ex showroom? If it still thinks India as a third world market where safety features can be compromised, then it needs to be taught a lesson. I am sure the markets would anyways do that.

On a different note, can someone please list and justify at least 5 good reasons for buying MUX over XUV? One reason of course is the proper 4x4 with low range gears. Any others?

1. Isuzu= robust Diesel engines
2. Proven long term reliability (abroad)
3. Quality of parts will be much better than M&M. Having take a vcross off-road during an event I can vouch for that.
4. Aftermarket support from Thailand.

MUX is a far better put together product when compared to the xuv, no comparison there.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by nvldvr

On a different note, can someone please list and justify at least 5 good reasons for buying MUX over XUV? One reason of course is the proper 4x4 with low range gears. Any others?

2. Bigger engine.
3. Better build quality a.k.a robustness and durability.
4. Proper BOF SUV and not a crossover.
5. Proven ability to withstand abuse across markets.

[Yeldo]

Originally Posted by A350XWB

Please read my post, which is a reply, specific to the highlighted sentence above. .

Sir, you seemed to have missed my point in the first place. I was not specifically criticizing Isuzu for providing only 2 airbags. Please go through my comment in its full context:

Originally Posted by Yeldo

... ensure that your vehicles come with as many airbags as possible. After the NCAP videos ... we have suddenly grown very conscious about occupant safety, and have come to relate safety directly with a vehicle's airbag count. Two airbags in a 20L vehicle somehow does not sound right!

Originally Posted by A350XWB

Not many people bothered when Toyota launched ... and when Isuzu launched something similar... suddenly people realize that this is not right.

Not many people bothered then because all the competitors at that point of time had almost similar feature sets. Now the main competition has moved forward while the Isuzu product has not.

When the new Endeavour was launched, it became a better product than the Fortuner on sale at that point of time. When Toyota launched the newest version of the Fortuner, then the Endeavour and Fortuner became an equal competitors again.

Similarly, when Isuzu update their vehicle in the future, it would then become the newest competitor in the market, and would be comparable or superior than the Endeavour and Fortuner.

Originally Posted by Yeldo

Yesterday's car at yesterday's price

Originally Posted by Yeldo

... the MU-X is half a generation old, and a competitor to the old Fortuner. The current Endeavour and Fortuner have taken the game forward. But Isuzu offer a product that compares with the old versions and have priced their car on lines with the prices of the old Fortuner.

I said that much. In this particular market segment, I felt that it would require a better price proposition to get prospective customers more interested.

[A350XWB]

Originally Posted by Sheel

# If Isuzu was half serious, they should have launched the newer/refreshed version in India, instead of dumping the phased out version.
# They should have priced it more competitively to gain space in market and then increase its prices [just like the Fortuner did]...

Totally agree with your points and I was in no way defending Izusu's plans. The 23-32L OTR SUV space is practically void these days. Izusu should have targeted this market, if they wanted to capture some market share.

Originally Posted by nvldvr

People were OK with Toyota because Toyota has a huge brand value and image of supreme reliability, earned world wide over many years. However, who is Isuzu?
Even by Isuzu's standards, it offers 6 airbags in its top variant in other markets including Thailand etc. What makes it think that Indian customers would make do with 2 airbags, even after paying 26 lakhs ex showroom? If it still thinks India as a third world market where safety features can be compromised, then it needs to be taught a lesson.

Yeldo, please read the comments above. This, my friend, is what I was talking about. People don't mind Toyota fleecing them, but not Izusu. And talking about competition not offering something, shouldn't a responsible company be proactive and offer better safety if they really cared about the market? If this was the case, Hyundai would not have ever launched the i20 with 6 airbags (Nobody was even thinking of 6 airbags in a hatchback)

Originally Posted by Yeldo

Not many people bothered then because all the competitors at that point of time had almost similar feature sets. Now the main competition has moved forward while the Isuzu product has not.

[Yeldo]

Sir, please consider this:

When did Isuzu start selling their MU-X in India? 2017 May. The older version. (The newer is on sale in other markets)

At this point of time, what are Toyota selling here in the segment? The new AN160 Fortuner.

So what are the prices?

In my city, they are: (MU-X Vs Fortuner, ex- showroom)

24,43,209 Vs 30,28,000 for 2WD A/T.

26,46,896 Vs. 32,26,000 for 4WD A/T.

That is an almost 6L difference.

Thus the MU-X is priced almost on par with the older Fortuner.

Is that a tempting proposition? That is the question here.

In isolation, the MU-X surely is a good product. Almost everyone is in agreement that Isuzu Diesels in the segment are as good as Toyota Diesels. For those who live in places where Isuzu have dealerships, the question of service reach and dealership infrastructure is irrelevant. For those who do not have a dealership nearby, there is no question of considering the vehicle at all in the first place.

The Fortuner, Endeavour, MUX, and the Pajero Sport all are pick-up based SUVs which are less posh than the likes of the Santa Fe, the CR-V etc. They are bought for their robust build, their easy serviceability, and not for their finesse. But with every generation, the Fortuner, the Endeavour, the MU-X etc. are bridging the gap between the Santa Fe and the like in technology, features and sophistication. So half a generation older means quite a significant difference in this segment.

Now would I save the 6L or stretch a little more and go for the Endeavour or Toyota?

My answer would be a grudging "Yes".

Not that I am happy with Toyota's pricing. Not because I am a fan of any brand. Not that I consider Isuzu as an inferior company. But it is straightforward common sense. Nothing else. For the 6L I pay more, I get a car that is newer. And I, in all probability, should recover a significant portion of that at the time of resale. The better service network is an added bonus.

And sorry, but I didn't get the logic of this:

Originally Posted by A350XWB

And talking about competition not offering something, shouldn't a responsible company be proactive and offer better safety if they really cared about the market?

You say Toyota did not launch a Fortuner with pioneering features 2 years back and at the same time asks why we should complain that Isuzu are launching a similarly packaged product now, two years later? If Toyota did poor 2 years back, how may that justify Isuzu doing the same thing after 2 years, may I ask?

If Toyota were selling the same old Fortuner presently, then we could have agreed that they are on an equal footing with Isuzu.

[A350XWB]

Originally Posted by Yeldo

And sorry, but I didn't get the logic of this:
You say Toyota did not launch a Fortuner with pioneering features 2 years back and at the same time asks why we should complain that Isuzu are launching a similarly packaged product now, two years later? If Toyota did poor 2 years back, how may that justify Isuzu doing the same thing after 2 years, may I ask?
If Toyota were selling the same old Fortuner presently, then we could have agreed that they are on an equal footing with Isuzu.

You yourself has answered this question in your post. Price! Is MU-X 4x4 AT priced on par with the new Fortuner 4x4 AT? No, right? So, why are people complaining or even comparing the two was my question. Do you think that if Izusu launched the new MU-X with on par pricing to the current Fortuner (which is by the way 40L OTR in Bangalore) they would have had better success? I think not. By placing the MU-X in the void created by the old Fortuner, Izusu might garner more sales than going head to head with the new Fortuner and Endeavour. I think that's what they are also thinking. So, if you consider price and the features, a better match for the MU-X is the old Fortuner and not the new one.
If you consider the upgrade path you mentioned, the new Fortuner is placed dangerously close to the Q3 and X1. Audi and BMW had more brand value than Toyota, to at least some people.

[nvldvr]

Originally Posted by A350XWB

You yourself has answered this question in your post. Price! Is MU-X 4x4 AT priced on par with the new Fortuner 4x4 AT? No, right? So, why are people complaining or even comparing the two was my question. Do you think that if Izusu launched the new MU-X with on par pricing to the current Fortuner (which is by the way 40L OTR in Bangalore) they would have had better success? I think not. By placing the MU-X in the void created by the old Fortuner, Izusu might garner more sales than going head to head with the new Fortuner and Endeavour. I think that's what they are also thinking. So, if you consider price and the features, a better match for the MU-X is the old Fortuner and not the new one.
If you consider the upgrade path you mentioned, the new Fortuner is placed dangerously close to the Q3 and X1. Audi and BMW had more brand value than Toyota, to at least some people.

You think Isuzu with its poor network of dealerships can afford to think of taking on Ford or Toyota? And having gone through the D Max thread, even the reliability claims of Isuzu are being questioned there. Forget the new Fortuner, MUX with its current price is no match even for the old one.

[neil.jericho]

Here are the on road prices in Bangalore (as per the sales rep) - 2WD is Rs 30,65,000 and 4WD is Rs 33,20,000. The waiting period is 5 - 6 weeks.

[RaghuVis]

Originally Posted by nvldvr

You think Isuzu with its poor network of dealerships can afford to think of taking on Ford or Toyota? And having gone through the D Max thread, even the reliability claims of Isuzu are being questioned there. Forget the new Fortuner, MUX with its current price is no match even for the old one.

Well, In that case, no matter what price they launch it, they are not going to survive right; you think people will be happy to buy a car for 3-4L less knowing its not reliable? It's still going to be a good 25L on road. Not easy money.

Look at how HEXA is faring.
1) We all agree its a stunning product
2) Tata ASS is only improving and looking up
3) Ownership reports are almost fully positive
It's been close to 6 months since launch but have they set sales on fire as we all would want to?

I think it's a conscious decision by them to price it properly. At least there is no other SUV/MUV/LUV in that price range Whether it is going to be a success or not only time will tell.

On a side note, I bet even today 8 out of 10 people who buy cars would not have heard of Team-BHP ever. They do not have such treasure trove of information. So for them, its all about how the brand is perceived by media and how it fares against it's competition in all terms. Since price is one of the most sensitive aspect, prospective buyers would be OK with that price. Now whether "OK" turns out to actual sales depends on lots of other factors as well.

[Yeldo]

Originally Posted by A350XWB

So, why are people complaining or even comparing the two was my question.

I said that the MU-X is a comparable product to the previous generation Fortuner at prices equal to the previous generation Fortuner. Didn't I, Sir?

Originally Posted by Yeldo;4197243 ...

the MU-X is half a generation old, and a competitor to the old Fortuner.

Originally Posted by Yeldo

...Yesterday's car at yesterday's price is what the MU-X is about.

Now on Isuzu's pricing of the MU-X:

Originally Posted by A350XWB

Do you think that if Izusu launched the new MU-X with on par pricing to the current Fortuner ... they would have had better success?

On the contrary, almost everyone here says the opposite: Isuzu ideally should have priced the MU-X significantly lower than the current levels to ensure better success, is what is being discussed here!

Originally Posted by Sheel

Something closer to Fortuner's price and people will simply walk over to Toyota and spend 5L more, but spending 10L more will make people think. This is precisely what I and a lot of people are thinking.

Originally Posted by JKBKS

They say they will rather buy a Fortuner by paying more (better reliability, resale, ASS etc) than buy an Isuzu at 27-28 lacs....But they are willing to give Isuzu a try if its 20-21 lacs OTR. Not more than that.