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Old 14th January 2021, 06:44   #271
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

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Originally Posted by damodar View Post
Diesel like torque curve from a turbo petrol is a surprise. Usually turbo petrol engines are known for poor low end performance, but looking at this torque curve it's performance should be similar to 1.5litre NA engines.
A flat torque curve with peak torque available from 1500 rpm means it will have very good driveability. This is exactly what we need especially in India. More than 0-100 figures, this is what really matters. Now they have to bring the auto box ASAP !
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:31   #272
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

With this spicier Altroz they should also look for introduction of the sedan versions in a GT ~ Grand Tourer look IMO. Tata is targeting 10% increase in Altroz's sales with the iTurbo introduction, & I feel the GT version (GTs as are becoming a rage/ in vogue) could open up the market to for middle class.
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:35   #273
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

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Originally Posted by DicKy View Post
The powers to be at TML didn't have the foresight to design the brand new Alfa platform to accomodate a 6 speed manual gearbox...or so rumours say.
I highly doubt this is the case. I don't think platform design is that rigid that it can't even take a slightly different gearbox. Tata is also developing a DCT gearbox which will have two clutches for even and odd ratio's. How do you think that is going to fit? Even at face value this doesnt makes much sense.

The 5-speed gearbox though is limited to certain power and torque and therefore cannot make the full 17x nm odd that the Nexon makes. It might be a blessing in disguise though since the engine will then have a flatter torque curve and the Altroz is much lighter too.

I think its more product differentiation and perhaps cost not the platform for sure.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 14th January 2021 at 07:36.
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Old 14th January 2021, 08:53   #274
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

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Originally Posted by damodar View Post
Diesel like torque curve from a turbo petrol is a surprise. Usually turbo petrol engines are known for poor low end performance, but looking at this torque curve it's performance should be similar to 1.5litre NA engines.
Why is the torque curve a surprise? A diesel like flat torque curve is a common characteristic of turbo petrols especially turbo gdi engines. Check 1.0 TSI, 1.2 TSI, Mahindra 1.2 turbo gdi, Hyundai i20/venue turbo petrol or any other such engine.
Turbo petrols usually achieve peak torque at around 1500 to 1750 rpm at full throttle compared to 4000 to 5000 rpm for NA MPFI engines.

The real thing that sets the driving experience apart is the way the engines are calibrated for part throttle conditions. And that holds true for all type of engines NA petrol, Turbo petrol MPFI, Turbo GDi, or even diesels. That is why some cars with an engine boasting better numbers on paper feel dull to drive compared to cars boasting weaker numbers.
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Old 14th January 2021, 09:01   #275
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

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Originally Posted by niteshbids View Post
Why is the torque curve a surprise? A diesel like flat torque curve is a common characteristic of turbo petrols especially turbo gdi engines. Check 1.0 TSI, 1.2 TSI, Mahindra 1.2 turbo gdi, Hyundai i20/venue turbo petrol or any other such engine.
Turbo petrols usually achieve peak torque at around 1500 to 1750 rpm at full throttle compared to 4000 to 5000 rpm for NA MPFI engines.
I was not expecting performance similar to a gasoline direct injected engine from a port injected old school turbo petrol.
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Old 14th January 2021, 09:04   #276
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
It might be a blessing in disguise though since the engine will then have a flatter torque curve and the Altroz is much lighter too.
I think the same.
I think the 5/6 speed transmission debate, in real world can be settled only after the reviews/TDs happen.

The power/torque curves shared by Damodar reflect a stunning real world performance, IMHO those lines seem ideal

Had read in the Safari thread that TML is leaning on automatics as the future. So either they didn't want to invest any effort in upgrading the manual or they have reserved it for a future update(like the Harrier) most likely with the DCT launch.

Rightly mentioned in this thread, this drip-feeding of upgrades should stop, but I also understand if TML didn't want to give a free run to Hyundai on the turbo front.

I have a feeling that the DCT would also include a power/torque upgrade, will be priced well and will pull off a significant lead from the i20.
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Old 14th January 2021, 09:53   #277
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

Altroz i-Turbo media drives begin, opinions on embargo till January 22

Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised-20210114_093759.jpg

Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised-20210114_093804.jpg

Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised-20210114_095224.jpg

Link
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Old 14th January 2021, 09:55   #278
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

Everything seems right for the Altroz turbo except one. The damn gearbox.

Why do Tata always find someway to shoot themselves in the foot with every new launch only to realise later and fix it to what should have been.

The first time they got the altroz with an anemic petrol engine and shot any chances of it to be a runaway success. Now they realised that buyers wanted better performance (no duh) so they get the much better turbo version but use the old 5 speed gearbox which can't handle the engines torque so they have to detune the torque limit to 140Nm. A 5 speed gearbox would have given them better ARAI figures to boast about, improved performance and the 6 speed unit in the nexon was way smoother than the old 5 speed unit.

Ofcourse it might drive fine for the most part in city, but why not do something better than others rather than follow them.

This is a new car for them and one that needs to sell for years down the line. Not having the right combination from the beginning will hurt the product. IT's not like they are saving it for another premium hatch, this is it!!
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Old 14th January 2021, 10:16   #279
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

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Originally Posted by kanishka88 View Post
.

Personally Altroz is 1 car that i keep turning around to have another look. What a beauty it is. The opposite happens when i see a Creta (no offense to anyone please, i owned the ugly duckling Ritz myself)
Totally agree. Altroz and Harrier are the two cars I often give a second (or 3rd 4th) look on the road and the new Creta is something I will never buy just for the looks

PS: My parents have the old gen Creta and pre-facelift Tiago and I have the 1st gen i10. we all agree that Tata build quality and lately better looking cars than Hyundai but engines are much refined for Hyundai
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Old 14th January 2021, 10:28   #280
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

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Originally Posted by shancz View Post
I think the same.
I think the 5/6 speed transmission debate, in real world can be settled only after the reviews/TDs happen...
Number of cogs is secondary.

The ancient 5-speed is clunky, and having lived with this powertrain combo for nearly two years now, can tell you first-hand it's a fly in the ointment for anyone wanting to have some fun.

This gearbox needs to be retired, pronto.
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Old 14th January 2021, 10:44   #281
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

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Originally Posted by damodar View Post
I was not expecting performance similar to a gasoline direct injected engine from a port injected old school turbo petrol.
That is quite true. In fact I checked around online for all details to make sure it was not a direct injection motor.
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Old 14th January 2021, 11:20   #282
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

Quote:
Originally Posted by damodar View Post
Diesel like torque curve from a turbo petrol is a surprise. Usually turbo petrol engines are known for poor low end performance, but looking at this torque curve it's performance should be similar to 1.5litre NA engines.
Sorry to rain on the parade, but I don't think this curve translates to driveability as much as it seems. Reason being :

1) Pretty much all the turbo-petrols I can think of say that they produce peak torque at 1500RPM. I'll stick to my experience with the VAG EA111 1.2TSi engine - the famous one in the Polo GT/Vento with DSG gearboxes :

(I have taken this image from post #3 on this thread : https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...er-wheels.html (VW Polo TSI & TDI - Simulated Comparison of Torque & Power at the Wheels))

Name:  77KW1.2TSI.jpg
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This is a direct-injection engine designed for turbo-charging, unlike the Tata Altroz's motor which I believe(could be mistaken) is not based on direct-injection.

In my experience, there is still a lot of "turbo lag"(although the technical term is boost threshold) below 2000RPM, wherein you could absolutely floor the throttle at 1300-1350 mark and almost nothing would happen till the 1700 mark is breached, beyond which it absolutely takes off. In my experience(NOT based on a dyno), it feels like peak torque is produced around 2200RPM - both in this car and my 2.0 Elantra CRDi, which are both turbocharged and coincidentally both show torque charts peaking around 1500RPM, but neither deliver on that despite one being a diesel which are traditionally strong in the low-end. So I am skeptical of the amount of torque that can be generated at that RPM. I agree that there could be various factors influencing that(fuel, wear and tear of the engine, driver error - I mean, how often do you really floor the throttle under 1500RPM in day-to-day driving? ) , but this is my experience driving turbocharged cars that claim peak torque at ~1500ish RPM and for some reason don't deliver.

2) 140nm of torque is just not a lot, no matter how you spin it. I speak from experience, my Vento with a claimed 175nm really has to be revved hard to move fast with more than 2-3 adults on board. The national engine(Maruti's 1.3L DDiS) generates a full 50nm of torque more, which has certainly spoiled many people! I don't see this as a torquey, low-end drivability monster. This sets me up for my third point which is :

3) Peak torque and power are produced at 5500RPM, which indicates this is a higher-revving motor with a more open top-end than say, the 1.2TSi I'm discussing here.

I feel that this would turn out to be an engine that performs best when you're revving it's heart out, not one that would do it's best in city driving or when you're clearing speed-breakers in 3rd gear. And I wouldn't be surprised if a weaker low-end is what causes the slower 0-100 times, rather than a missing top-end.

Last edited by rkv_2401 : 14th January 2021 at 11:22.
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Old 14th January 2021, 11:22   #283
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
the old 5 speed gearbox which can't handle the engines torque so they have to detune the torque limit to 140Nm. A 5 speed gearbox would have given them better ARAI figures to boast about, improved performance and the 6 speed unit in the nexon was way smoother than the old 5 speed unit.
If they felt the nexon gear box was expensive, they could've used the 5 speed gear box from the diesel variant. It handles 200Nm torque of the diesel engine.
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Old 14th January 2021, 11:23   #284
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

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Originally Posted by damodar View Post
port injected old school turbo petrol.
Ahh.. Old school, honest, rugged and reliable mechanicals is how I pronounce it!

That said, I have been following this thread since long, and the discussion on 0-100 was quite interesting too.

Actually, until it's an automatic car with a DCT or a nice TC; I personally don't give a damn to 0-100. Doing that on a manual requires you to have a lot of technique, right throttle input at launch, perfect shifts and what not. In a DSG equipped car, just use the left hand once and put the foot down - easy peasy. Things turn even more interesting in manual cars which require you to shift till third for hitting 100, that means once more you press the clutch, quickly move from second to third, release and kaboom, with some extra effort, also one bad shift, and your mood gets turned off.

That said, 0-100 feels good only in those manual cars which have a huge band to play with, a high revving motor, and a capability to hit 100 in second and 120 in third. They are damn fun to drive. Under 12 lac, only two such options can be had today - Honda City i-VTEC (lower trim) and Ecosport Ti-VCT.

Coming back to the topic, 0-100 time of 11.9 second is absolutely cool, how many of you guys can make a City actually hit 100 under 12 seconds? Just try once, and see still how quick it feels.

Just look at it as an option of a car, which offers you fantastic driveability. You are not going to hit 2000 rpm in a city drive most of the time, nor are you going to hit 6500 rpm once every 1000 kms. But yes, you hit 1500-3000 rpm range very frequently, and that's where we need the ample power.

Example 1: Polo 1.2 MPi
Anemic engine, only 75 hp on tap, heavy body, poor 0-100 figures
Still the best engine to potter around in the town, cleanly pulls from 20 kph in third and 40 kph in fifth. Can climb ghats pottering around at just 1500 rpm, and you can do Dehradun-Mussoorie (Elevation change is really great on this route) mostly in third and fourth cog, requiring second cog only when its some hairpin and you are on inner periphery.

Example 2: Ciaz 1.5 DDiS
Lowest power and torque rating among competitors
Drive it to believe it, the engine starts pulling right from 1500 rpm, you don't enjoy the flat out figures, but you get an awesome in-gear drivability. Drive it from 60-120 in sixth gear and you will start singing appreciations for this motor.

Talking about 1.0 TSi and 1.0 T-GDi
Let's talk only about T-GDi here in fact. The 1.0 TSi is derived out of some black magic, that engine is puny only in size, but pulls from idle like a 1.2l engine at least.
The T-GDi is a funny motor IMO. It feels good only till it is inside a small and light weight hatch. Add the weight, and the kid simply loses the muscle. I can't imagine going uphill in a fully loaded manual car with 1.0 T-GDi. Fine it has 118 bhp, but I am not willing to drive over 2000 rpm anywhere, leave aside 5500.

Only on highways, expressways, and traffic lights; that you appreciate 0-100 figures (And it's uncomfortable for everyone else in the car too). In every other situation, you need a strong mid range. There is a difference between having fun at the cost of a jerky drive and pull with clutch burning and engine revving all the way to redline. And the fun, that one can have during their daily drives, by just shifting down, pulling to 4000, then shifting up and repeating. I belong to the second category, instead of having all the fun in 10 seconds, just keep on giving it to me in small quantities time and again

I would any day prefer a 1.2l turbo petrol motor over a 1.0l unit. It gives me better low end, a more linear power delivery, and if the specific power output is lesser - I can expect a higher reliability and lower maintenance in long run too, along with a higher FE. Everyone knows the fuel sipping habit of turbo petrols. A bigger block with a smaller turbine attached to it, is any day my preference over a smaller block with a bigger turbine attached to it.

So, don't go by the numbers guys. Drive it to believe it.

But yes, this car needed a six speed gearbox and Nexon engine tune, for being properly fun to drive - no two ways about it. But, I am sure, our tuners will take care of that part too

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkv_2401 View Post
VAG EA111 1.2TSi engine
That's the point man, this engine is still 20% larger in displacement than the 1.0l engines. My point is rather simple, couple a 1.2l motor to a turbo, and you get a vehicle which is more driveable than the one that gets a 1.0l motor.

Quote:
could absolutely floor the throttle at 1300-1350 mark and almost nothing would happen till the 1700 mark is breached, beyond which it absolutely takes off. It feels like peak torque is produced around 2200RPM
Turbines take some time to build pressure, most of the engines start showing some respite from say 300-400 rpm before the real bump is what I too notice. It's at 1750 rpm or 1500 is just that we can feel the engine to be starting to pull, but the real one, like you said, comes after some momentum is gained.

Quote:
The national engine(Maruti's 1.3L DDiS) generates a full 50nm of torque more, which has certainly spoiled many people! I don't see this as a torquey, low-end drivability monster.
Even Innova 2.5 also had around 200 nm torque only, have you seen it pulling uphill against the likes of XUV and Safari which had 320 nm, or even the Hexa, which had 400? Only figures never dictate the drivability IMO.

Secondly, figures being same, petrols always have their inherent high revving nature, which always makes the turbo petrols quicker than turbo diesels. Like Laura petrol had 250 Nm of torque, bring any diesel with same torque figure which puts it down so violently and pulls in as maniac a manner as Laura used to. Cruze used to have 350, Laura used to show the Cruze the dust in no time. While the Cruze had higher power and higher torque, but the weight difference was not even 100 kilos.

I always say this, comparing turbo petrols and turbo diesels is not viable, even if the torque figures are same, a turbo petrol pulls even a heavier car in a more brisk manner than a turbo diesel can. You think a Swift diesel will accelerate quicker than a Nexon petrol?

Last edited by VKumar : 14th January 2021 at 11:48.
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Old 14th January 2021, 11:24   #285
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Default Re: Tata Altroz with turbo petrol engine spotted undisguised

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Originally Posted by shancz View Post
Happy that the Altroz now gets an engine which does justice to the brilliant car.
- Like mentioned earlier, the automatic should be next but I hope they also improve on the weird-square-needled instrument cluster with something like the latest gen City or the previous gen Tiago
I am so glad, that someone else noticed the "weird-square-needled instrument cluster". I have been losing my mind over it ever since I saw it. It definitely is a little off set but until now, the people who I asked for an opinion for, did not feel anything to be amiss with the design of the Tachometer.
It looks extremely out of place and out of sync.
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