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Old 8th May 2023, 13:03   #16
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

I got my Diesel Innova in 2022 October, I paid road tax for 15 years. I live in Mumbai which easily has a population of million plus.

Why was I sold the car in the first place and that too which costed so much if I was not going to be allowed to use or keep it in the city that I live in?

If they want to implement it, why not stop every diesel car to be registered and sold in cities with million plus population and then say from today in 15 years this scheme will be implemented?

Looks like Hitler Raj with arbitrary though process morons ruling the roost.
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Old 8th May 2023, 13:06   #17
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

The article is behind a paywall.

Can someone answer these questions?
1. Where can I read the full detailed report?
2. Who are the committee members?
3. What is their educational qualification?
4. What was the criteria for choosing the said committee members?

And most importantly,

5. What were they smoking while preparing the report?
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Old 8th May 2023, 13:11   #18
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post

If they want to implement it, why not stop every diesel car to be registered and sold in cities with million plus population and then say from today in 15 years this scheme will be implemented?

Looks like Hitler Raj with arbitrary though process morons ruling the roost.
These are merely recommendations and as I've outlined above it isn't in great detail.

Implementation will of course be a cutoff date for registrations, like they did during the BS6 transition and then refusal to renew vehicles for which the FC has run out.

This would be the most logical and straight forward manner to take things forward.

Abrupt bans on plying vehicles would be arbitrary and I'm sure it will get challenged in Court , where the ban will be struck down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siddarth_Ramani View Post
The article is behind a paywall.

Can someone answer these questions?
1. Where can I read the full detailed report?
See my post above. It should lead you to the answers of your other questions as well, hopefully.

Last edited by adwaith : 8th May 2023 at 13:12.
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Old 8th May 2023, 13:17   #19
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

Here's a link to the report:
The Green Shift - Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas

The chapter of particular interest to Team-BHPians would be Chapter 7: Energy Options and Roadmap for Surface Transport.

This report is very comprehensive and talks about energy in a holistic approach. Transport and energy sectors have a very heavy overlap and hence are usually clubbed together in policy approaches.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KPR View Post
Can any member in power distribution industry say whether Indian power generation will be sufficient to cater electric car charging in almost every household that own a car in 2027?
The energy generation capacity has been increasing fast and has a good roadmap for the future. India has constraints in the inter-state transmission capacity, but that is being increased at an extremely rapid rate over the past few years. The energy exchanges are flourishing and overall grid stability has increased.
Electricity is a legacy sector and has fundamental issues which are very difficult to be solved. Attempts have been ongoing to move to new approach to solve our electricity distribution problems but there has been large resistance from various stakeholders with vested interests. Change is happening step-by-step though as is to be expected in a large old sector.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
Firstly, other than the Road Transport and Highways Ministry (and courts which have stepped in since 2016) do all other ministries have substantial powers conferred upon them to decide the life of motor vehicles?
If someone can't decide something doesn't mean they can't give a recommendation right?
In fact, it's good that there's cross-functional work being attempted rather than everyone working in their own silos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilesh5417 View Post
Haven't read the link since it's behind some paywall
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siddarth_Ramani View Post
The article is behind a paywall.
See the beginning of my post.

Last edited by jalsa777 : 8th May 2023 at 13:19.
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Old 8th May 2023, 13:22   #20
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

Europe is banning ICE Vehicles from 2035 & they are the most aggressive in this regard globally. They are also banning Petrol (Entire ICE). US for example has no such plan currently.

EU is targeting Net Zero by 2050. As per Modi, we are targeting Net Zero by 2070. Even by 2030, at best 50% of the Energy will be from Renewable. They will take till 2035/2040 to go to 70/75/80% Renewable Energy where it will matter. Besides it will take atleast 5 years for Jammu Lithium to come good (if it does) & till that time we get stuff from China. There is still a huge difference between ICE & EV & utterly disastrous charging infra & range. You have go an evolving EV Battery Tech & Heavy Vehicles including Long Distance Trucks which can't run of EVs by 2027 odd.

This is a Sri Lanka Organic Farming type call. India is anyways targeting 30% EVs by 2030 so realistically EVs will become the majority by 2035-2040 types @ the earliest. After 12-15 years odd, they can look @ stopping New Registration for ICE Cars. Anything beyond that is ridiculous.

BTW I bought a Diesel Car this year & will buy an EV as a secondary car in 2027/28/29 when ICE & EV prices will converge & EV Range & Charging Infra will further improve !
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Old 8th May 2023, 13:33   #21
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

Here are some more highlights and details from Internet news feeds

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com...le66741430.ece

and the article infographics from indiatimes (screenshot) Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027-ban.jpg

will take it with a pinch of salt this recommendations as there is so much more to be done before which takes time.
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Old 8th May 2023, 13:38   #22
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

Good move and much needed. Steps should have initiated 5 years earlier. Diesel has to be confined to heavy commercial vehicles. However we also need to look at our coal burning power plants which need to be upgraded at least to gas burning ones & of course much more renewables. I foresee even petrol vehicle ban after 2030.
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Old 8th May 2023, 14:35   #23
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

I don't why everyone is reading too much into this. Nowhere in the article it says that old diesel vehicles will be taken of the road by 2027. The ban can be related to sale of new diesel vehicles. They have mentioned in the article that they have recommended to the govt to not buy any more diesel buses.

There is no cause of knee jerk reactions like that this is not possible or this is unjust and much more. This is a kind of white paper / research / recommendation submitted by a panel constituted by petroleum ministry. To make it a policy it is a job of the govt.

And people are asking why petroleum ministry is looking into vehicles sale regulation because
1. They want to cut the fuel import bill and reduce dependency on crude oil
2. Also they are looking at ways of reducing pollution.
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Old 8th May 2023, 14:52   #24
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

For those looking to read the entire article that came in today's Economic Times newspaper here it is-

Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027-adobe-scan-may-08-2023-1_1.jpg

Since this is a recommendation one cannot take it as the final words. Thus the general apprehension of diesel 4-wheelers being banned by 2027 is misplaced. Worst case scenario even if the government does that it will be very difficult to enforce it retrospectively (this would be the case where the diesel cars bought before the proposed year of 2027 will also be banned). What they could do is ban the registration or put a cap on the registration of diesel vehicles in a financial year from 2027 onward. But unless it is an order by the government or bodies like NGT there is no point in doing fear-mongering.
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Old 8th May 2023, 14:55   #25
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

A straightforward ban seems absurd. It has to be a gradual phase out giving people time to shift.

There are many last mile connectivity commercial vehicles (like Tata Ace and Winger based vehicles) which fall under the 4 wheeler category. Moving them all to petrol might increase the cost of living for ordinary people.

Mass adoption of EVs is going to be a problem for India. Though substantial Lithium deposits have been found in India recently, we still will be dependent on China for the short term.
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Old 8th May 2023, 15:29   #26
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarmacnaut View Post
The subsidy on Diesel should have been stopped a decade ago, IMO Diesel had one of the useless subsidy thanks to the bygone era "Socialist" Indian Government policies. The only people who benefitted from this are the already fat business men who never really bothered to pay the full tax but saved huge sums in diesel operated vehicles, both passenger/commercial and few diesel car owners.
Diesel subsidy exists because any kind of freight operations depend on Diesel fuel. They cannot run on Petrol because the freight vehicles will be extremely fuel inefficient. If Diesel was more expensive, every single commodity and product that you know of will get massively more expensive! How is this beneficial for the country?

Electric vehicles definitely have the opportunity to take over the freight world but (a) the EV technology is a LONG way away from being able to use this reliable for something as critical as distribution and (b) the current power grid will not be able to support such a drastic shift.

The report, in its simplest form as represented in the article, is extremely myopic. I hope better details that the news article decided to omit capture some nuances.

Also, I really don’t understand the government’s stand on this. If a diesel vehicle can meet the emission norms set by the regulators, what is exactly the problem? How can it be more polluting? I agree the older ones, that do not meet the current criteria, should be deprecated.

Last edited by krishnakumar : 8th May 2023 at 15:41.
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Old 8th May 2023, 16:18   #27
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

The only takeaway from this clickbait-ish article is that the future of Diesel in PV is limited. The sunset date may be 2027 or 2030 or even later. Even if there is no outright ban in place, the government of the day will introduce policies that will make Diesel very unattractive as a fuel of choice.

Someone asked in one of the previous threads, why is Diesel only being targetted even if it is able to meet regulations. The VW Dieselgate has sullied the name of Diesel all over the world. With SCR and DPFs being the mandatory kit required to meet BS6 Phase II and RDE norms, the engines are going to become costlier for sure. So, there is more motivation for OEMs to cut corners, which is a regulator's nightmare. But the answer is not only a matter of regulations but a matter of economics where the subsidies of Diesel which are actually intended for Transporters and Farmers etc is actually being enjoyed by the more relatively economically prosperous strata including the BMW and Merc users.
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Old 8th May 2023, 16:18   #28
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

So if the Ban goes as planned? what happens to the thousands of bookings Mahindra, Tata have taken for their XUV700, Scorpio, Thar, Safari/harrier where major bookings are for diesel models?
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Old 8th May 2023, 16:39   #29
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

The government need to implement some policies in a nutshell...
1. Stop sale of any passenger and or transport diesel automobile
2. Auto manufacturers should stop manufacturing of all diesel vehicles and aim only at getting rid of their inventory
3. Ramping up the still inadequate power supply and distribution across the country
4. Battery production and optimization
5. Sort out the many niggles that still plague the EV industry

This should take atleast 5 years. For a country such as ours any change will happen slowly. We are talking about changing mindsets.
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Old 8th May 2023, 16:39   #30
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

While we are still four years away from this getting implemented (if at all), in the absence of a thought process that addresses the concerns of existing diesel car owners, OEMs and would be buyers, this is nothing but a whimsical recommendation that is Tughlakian in its proportions.

Seriously, the government really needs to think through these things and stop taking a substantial part of the population for granted. A vehicle purchase decision for most of us has a substantial financial impact, and this is true for commercial vehicle owners as well. These kind of knee-jerk recommendations don't help in building trust and confidence in the automobile industry especially when such recommendations (and decisions) are taken in isolation and without consulting the people most affected by them.

I am all for shifting away from fossil fuels but it has to be done in a sustainable and holistic way and not in a knee-jerk way.

First create the power infra and the EV charging infra (plan for the time when millions of EVs will be on the roads and not the percentage that is there now), then have a proper transition plan for existing ICE owners.

Also, why restrict to just diesel if some of the goals are to reduce fuel imports and reduce pollution? New age diesels are comparable to petrol cars in terms of pollution parameters but give better mileage per litre, which actually translates to less fuel required for the same distance.

Also, why just restrict to diesel four wheelers?

Come 2027, should we then buy the diesel generator powered vanos that rule the countryside and many parts of our cities as well (they are pretty ubiquitous within Calcutta now - the attached photo is from Calcutta) considering that they are three wheelers and come with the added advantage of zero accountability (no registration or insurance required) and zero PUC requirements?

Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027-vano.jpg

On a lighter note, I think that this is a viable idea, considering that we can even use these vanos as vehicles for hire and actually make money from them, instead of losing money like we do in running and maintaining a conventional ICE four wheeler. Plus the government and the enforcement authorities turn a blind eye to them even if they belch black smoke right in their face. So we will not have anything to worry about.
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