[benvsben]

Originally Posted by Nilesh5417

Haven't read the link since it's behind some paywall but first kill the vehicles and then increase the share of grid power? Not sure who reviews and signs off such reports. They really need to focus on fixing the entire power sector first. I am slowly losing faith in the current government - all policy recommendations / decisions seem to be made by some over zealous teams with zero consideration to impact that they might have on the population and with no collaboration across ministries. We are the most populous country in the world - this ain't Europe.

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com...le66741430.ece

[giri1.8]

On this particular topic, it makes more sense to see if scraping a road worthy diesel for EV/petrol makes any sense in terms of pollution. Short answer is NO.

Debating to see which one makes more pollution off the shelf feels slightly off topic. We have more threads for such general discussion.

[venkyhere]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

That's the difference between actual research and back of napkin calculations.

Actual example of how the justification game in Energy Cycle R&D works :
The same IIT Kanpur coming up with opposing views from their 'reserach' year after year, and publishing it, depending upon who the professor/team was and who funded the research :

1) Dec 2021 - Electric vehicles the future of India, reveals study by IIT Kanpur and ICCT https://www.telegraphindia.com/edugr...ct/cid/1841959 (sponsored by international tribunal for 'clean' transportation - a.k.a moneybags who have invested in Li mining)

2) July 2022 - Electric vehicles in India more polluting than petrol/diesel
https://auto.timesofindia.com/articl...w/92971530.cms (sponsored by Aramco, the Saudi oil giant)

3) May 1st week 2023 - IIT Kanpur and Lohum Partner for Lithium-ion Battery Sustainability Research https://energy.economictimes.indiati...earch/99980969 (joint research with an energy startup focussed on EV batteries)

4) May last week 2023 - Electric cars more harmful than conventional, hybrid cars: IIT Kanpur study https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...340-2023-05-23 (sponsored by some firm in Japan)

Even within the institution, across departments, across professors and groups, there is no correlation. And we in TBHP and the general public are supposed to 'bank on' such research and think one way or another. If you go back to my posts, you will see that my arguments are simply based on entropy (the understanding about which is from way before the the era of 'sponsored' science, when research was only about wanting to 'know' , not about wanting to make a profit out of it).

Originally Posted by venkyhere

If you are ready to 'trust' the energy-cycle-reserach that is funded by EV makers and their investors, wish you goodluck. If history has taught us anything, it is that 'technology' is driven by 'funding' which in turn is driven by vested interests. Policy is made by lobbyists purely to profit a few. It will be naive to think that the world makes 'progress' based on 'whats good for humanity'.

[RM Motorsports]

The Ugly Truth

My company supplies equipments in battery manufacturing industry. The amount of electricity one machine needs beyond imagination.

[DriveOnceMore]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

4) May last week 2023 - Electric cars more harmful than conventional, hybrid cars: IIT Kanpur study https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...340-2023-05-23 (sponsored by some firm in Japan)
.

We are in India where anything can be managed by the ones holding power.
There are two manufacturers are betting big on the hybrids as against others who have already started on (/ will start soon) on EV path.
So to take care of the FOMO on EVs market, these two companies 'COULD BE' pushing for such news article to turn the tide in their favour.
I am not doubting integrity or genuinety of the institute but just sharing my perspective.
Afterall, India is country of possibilities and 'anything' is possible.

[fhdowntheline]

Somehow I have become very skeptical about such study reports which have impacts on other stakeholders. The truth if at all, is always buried somewhere in between and conveniently expressed to suit selfish objectives.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

Actual example of how the justification game in Energy Cycle R&D works :
.

Few bad examples does not mean all research is junk, the science is clear on pollution from EVs and ICE, the govts in most advanced countries are clear what best for their citizens.

These examples no way validates your back of napkin assumptions, I do not want to further debate because you believe anything against your belief is a conspiracy by EV battery makers( whose revenue is less than 1/10 of the oil industry profits).

Originally Posted by RM Motorsports

The Ugly Truth

My company supplies equipments in battery manufacturing industry. The amount of electricity one machine needs beyond imagination.

Yes, as with assumptions of petrolheads, diesel appears magically in the petrol bunk.

[venkyhere]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Few bad examples does not mean all research is junk, the science is clear on pollution from EVs and ICE, the govts in most advanced countries are clear what best for their citizens.

These examples no way validates your back of napkin assumptions, I do not want to further debate because you believe anything against your belief is a conspiracy by EV battery makers( whose revenue is less than 1/10 of the oil industry profits).

Why shy away from a debate, after all I am the 'back of napkin' guy. Let's debate on 'data' (as is your preference), so produce the data, the onus is on you, not me, since I am the 'propaganda guy' who doesn't pay heed to data.

Please quote with examples, some energy cycle studies from wherever you can find them, claiming EVs are 'cleaner' than fossil fuelled cars.

I am the skeptical one here, you are the one who has been slam dunked by blind belief in the "scientific" decision making of "govts".

[PatchyBoy]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Yes, as with assumptions of petrolheads, diesel appears magically in the petrol bunk.

Attachment 2454704

I have been refraining from posting in such controversial threads, but after seeing this just couldn't resist.

Are you suggesting that windmills and solar panels occur naturally and all EV owners charge their vehicles directly from them?

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by PatchyBoy

Are you suggesting that windmills and solar panels occur naturally and all EV owners charge their vehicles directly from them?

I hate to answer rhetorical questions, but since you asked only about windmills and solar, let me clarify.

I am also not suggesting that the oil rig in the ocean, large tanker ships, oil refineries, oil tanker trucks occur naturally. I guess we all are intelligent enough in understanding a meme.

No, EVs don't charge directly from solar or windmills, neither do they charge directly from coal power plants(see original meme).

Do you believe that EVs only need electricity but diesel occurs naturally(original meme)? asking since you did not ask that question to @RMmotorsports.

In many advanced countries you can buy electricity from green sources, the provider ensures enough green energy and adds it into the grid. If there are more users asking for green energy, the more solar and Windmills are built.

Even on this very forum there are many EV owners who have installed solar panels and generate more energy than their car needs. Can you do the same for any ICE car?

A+B+C does not make science, without quantifying the values A, B and C, need proper research not elementary level additions.

[PatchyBoy]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

A+B+C does not make science, without quantifying the values A, B and C, need proper research not elementary level additions.

Thanks for educating elementary folks like me. No one can or would claim that ICE vehicles are non-polluting. The question that begs to be answered is - are EVs as clean as they claim to be?

Why don't you please do the honours and share some proper research material and data points to prove that claim?

There are several mysterious ways nature works in. Would you believe me if I said that fossil fuels are also renewable energy? Here is some food for thought

https://youtu.be/I8KpuydjfJI

[clevermax]

Originally Posted by PatchyBoy

There are several mysterious ways nature works in. Would you believe me if I said that fossil fuels are also renewable energy? Here is some food for thought
https://Youtu.be/I8KpuydjfJI

Exactly. How can we confidently place blame on human activity as the sole cause of climate change when our understanding of nature, particularly the extensive carbon cycles that nature has been performing for countless years, is still in its early stages?

I suggest that everyone take the time to watch the video above which showcases how nature operates on its own accord, oblivious to human actions. This video is likely just one example of how the planet inherently corrects itself.

Perhaps in the future, a species of intelligent beings will discover that humans, who were so focused on saving the planet, were merely a temporary annoyance in the grand scheme of things for mother earth.

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Even on this very forum there are many EV owners who have installed solar panels and generate more energy than their car needs. Can you do the same for any ICE car?

Not all EV owners charge their vehicles with renewable energy. The percentages in the above figure are global statistics.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/stree...ml#post5533023 (How do you offset the pollution created with your drives/rides?)

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by PatchyBoy

Thanks for educating elementary folks like me. No one can or would claim that ICE vehicles are non-polluting. The question that begs to be answered is - are EVs as clean as they claim to be?

I never claimed to be superior, I neither create my own science, I read about climate change more than average folks and can understand and differentiate good vs bad science. The common mistake most people make is about electricity generation, but refining petrol needs 1.3kwh/litre of electricity.

Most people talk about Cobalt and child labour, but there are EVs without Cobalt, child labour was used for Cobalt extraction because the oil refining process needs Cobalt. Engine blocks need Cobalt alloy.

Also today batteries are 95% recyclable, we will see better battery chemistries, fossil fuels are 0% recyclable.

Nothing in this world has 0 carbon footprint, with EVs we have a clear path to decrease personal transport emissions very significantly without asking everyone to use bicycles.

Why don't you please do the honours and share some proper research material and data points to prove that claim?

I can post many articles and studies, but I will suggest to follow the energy flows.



https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikesco...mes-from-coal/

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factchec...limate-change/

https://www.transportenvironment.org...ion-heres-why/

There are several mysterious ways nature works in. Would you believe me if I said that fossil fuels are also renewable energy? Here is some food for thought

Fossil fuels are renewable and take millions of years to form, what is the advantage you, me and our grandchildren get out of it?

Originally Posted by clevermax

Not all EV owners charge their vehicles with renewable energy. The percentages in the above figure are global statistics.

I never said 'all', I said 'many'. The earth will stay for millions of years even if humans are gone, it's never to save the planet, it's always to save human race, the animal species we know and protect ourselves from misery of floods and heat waves.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

The earth will stay for millions of years even if humans are gone, it's never to save the planet, it's always to save human race, the animal species we know and protect ourselves from misery of floods and heat waves.

This simple fact eludes a lot of people
Save the planet only means save the human species.The rest of nature will find a way as always.
Unbridled "development" is affecting humans the most , paradoxically.

[Senotrius]

Middle path suggested- hydrogen fuel(or any other eco friendlier material for that matter). Will pick up only with strong, govt level policies. It is not as unethical as battery production,byproduct is water vapour and no issue of getting rid of used batteries or worry of battery performance degradation over years. Japan is one govt i know of supporting hydrogen among other fossil fuel alternatives. Like EVs, nations need to invest a lot on laying the infrastructure for this to become a reality and production at global scale(for economies of scale benefit). The chinese/german govt policies on solar electricity a decade or two ago is what makes solar panels and solar energy cheap now. Works out with huge govt subsidies(initially) and economies of scale.