[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

It is similar to the Supreme Court, and governments are bound to implement its diktats.

If tomorrow, the NGT decides to extend the ban to other Tier I cities, there is not a thing any state government can do about it. They will have to execute and implement it.

Not necessarily. The NGT rulings can be appealed in the Supreme Court.

Taken from their website

Are decisions of the Tribunal final?

The Tribunal has powers to review its own decisions. If this fails, the decision can be challenged before the Supreme Court within ninety days.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by Mad Max

Not necessarily. The NGT rulings can be appealed in the Supreme Court.

Taken from their website

Are decisions of the Tribunal final?

The Tribunal has powers to review its own decisions. If this fails, the decision can be challenged before the Supreme Court within ninety days.

Yes.

And the SC had explicitly refused to stay or even scale back any of the restrictions the NGT had imposed in Delhi NCR. The precedent has been set.

[ph03n!x]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

Yes.

And the SC had explicitly refused to stay or even scale back any of the restrictions the NGT had imposed in Delhi NCR. The precedent has been set.

And guess who benefits from that? The same powerful lobby that needs new cars to be sold in India's single largest car market.

But rolling out a country wide ban or restriction will have wider repercussions that no elected politician can afford not to oppose.

Our economy is driven by Diesel. And until the powers that be provides a viable and executa9 workaround for that, bans will result is bands.

[anjan_c2007]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

If implemented, this will be final nail in the coffin for diesel car and accelerate transition to EVs.

Nothing has been heard either from this Petroleum Ministry Committee or the government thereafter.

No responsible person from the government uttered a single word about the "very intelligent" findings and recommendations by this Committee.

We are not sure as to whether the controversial findings have been muted or are under the scanner of some other superior and "more intelligent" Committee.

As the old adage goes:-

"If any problem gives birth to a Committee and if such a Committee concludes something complicated, to unravel such complications another new Superior Committee is constituted."

[low_rider]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

The ban in Delhi NCR was brought in neither by the center, nor by any state government. It was done by the NGT.

Usually such contentious decisions are smartly "routed" through courts. Some petitioner files a case in which the Govt is the respondent. The Govt lawyers then defend the case poorly resulting in the courts giving the "desired" judgement.

Anyways, it is just a matter of time once some big business houses get into EV production or acquire any EV manufacturer. Then we can see total ban on ICE cars atleast in metros + other major cities.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by low_rider

Usually such contentious decisions are smartly "routed" through courts. Some petitioner files a case in which the Govt is the respondent. The Govt lawyers then defend the case poorly resulting in the courts giving the "desired" judgement.

Anyways, it is just a matter of time once some big business houses get into EV production or acquire any EV manufacturer. Then we can see total ban on ICE cars atleast in metros + other major cities.

Of course, corporate lobbying plays a role in shaping the contours of policy. But in this case, the diktat was challenged in the Supreme Court and the court had refused to intervene, effectively giving it its stamp of approval. This was back in the pre BS6 era. I distinctly remeber that a very senior foreign Jaguar executive had argued that his cars are complaint with the latest Euro 6 norms, complete with DPF(unheard of in India at that time), and the PM level of their exhaust was actually less than that of the ambient air in Delhi. Court refused to listen, and in fact gave him a dressing down.

Net net, the policy is set in stone and can be implemented in any other place at any time at their whim.

Business houses have been in the EV game for quite some time, be it Tata or Mahindra or Hero or TVS. Then again, the big two, the Gujarat and Bombay based business houses, have bet on what they call 'green' hydrogen. So yes, multiple forces are at play here. The only thing certain in this great game is that we the tax paying consumer will get the short end of the stick, whenever any poicy chage is to be oushed through.

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

:"If any problem gives birth to a Committee and if such a Committee concludes something complicated, to unravel such complications another new Superior Committee is constituted."

I know such decision don't get implemented overnight and there are commitees after commitees that are formed.

But then rome wasn't built in a day. All it needs is spark to light a fire.

The news meant that there is somebody in the bureaucracy is thinking about it.

Rest let's wait and watch what the govt decides

[irdevanand]

Hello everyone,

I'm seeking some informed opinions here. Given recent developments, do you think it's wise to refrain from purchasing diesel cars at the moment? Specifically, I'm interested in hearing from those who are currently considering buying a diesel SUV like the Fortuner. I value your input and would like to make an informed decision about my potential purchase.

I posted this query on another thread and thought it would be relevant to share here as I'm on the verge of finalizing my decision to buy a Fortuner Diesel. However, recent news has given me some hesitation.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...ml#post5593786 (2021 Toyota Fortuner Legender & Facelift Review)

Looking forward to hearing your insights.

Best regards,
Dev

[Mystic]

Originally Posted by irdevanand

Hello everyone,

I'm seeking some informed opinions here. Given recent developments, do you think it's wise to refrain from purchasing diesel cars at the moment? Specifically, I'm interested in hearing from those who are currently considering buying a diesel SUV like the Fortuner. I value your input and would like to make an informed decision about my potential purchase.

I posted this query on another thread and thought it would be relevant to share here as I'm on the verge of finalizing my decision to buy a Fortuner Diesel. However, recent news has given me some hesitation.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...ml#post5593786 (2021 Toyota Fortuner Legender & Facelift Review)

Looking forward to hearing your insights.

Best regards,
Dev

My 2 cents. In a democratic country, decisions cannot be taken with immediate effect retrospectively on any matter for that matter. The final decision can only be taken after the blessings of all stake holders etc. In a country like India , we have roads to cater to bullock carts, 3 wheelers running on kerosene, 3 decades old diesel trucks emitting thick black smoke right in front of the Govt secretariat.

I spent 3 million rupees purchasing a diesel Crysta Z automatic diesel. Nobody can stop
me from using it for next 15 years as the taxes are prepaid.

In countries like USA, anything and everything is challenged legally and in fact there is a perception that the country is run by lawyers. India is not far behind now in terms of lawyers who can be hired to challenge the laws in courts.

My advice is not worry much on Diesel ban getting implemented suddenly retrospectively.Diesel is backbone of transportation in India. Diesel vehicles may be phased out in future slowly and the subsidies may be removed on its price slowly.

[Gamemaztr]

A noob question,

Is not lithium extraction from mines is more dangerous to the environment and living beings living around such mines?

I have always feel that present EV's are not as green as they are understood to be. They are only fun to drive and pollute far more than our regular cars. It is just pushing the tailpipe emissions from the car to other sources of pollution.

Further, if EV's are claimed to be green, how green is actually their manufacturing process? All parts required to build a EV are transported by Diesel trucks and by Ships running on fossil fuels.

There is no logic to it which I can really understand. Wearing a white cloak over dirty deeds is no good practice.

[batish]

Originally Posted by Gamemaztr

A noob question,

Is not lithium extraction from mines is more dangerous to the environment and living beings living around such mines?

I have always feel that present EV's are not as green as they are understood to be. They are only fun to drive and pollute far more than our regular cars. It is just pushing the tailpipe emissions from the car to other sources of pollution.

Further, if EV's are claimed to be green, how green is actually their manufacturing process? All parts required to build a EV are transported by Diesel trucks and by Ships running on fossil fuels.

There is no logic to it which I can really understand. Wearing a white cloak over dirty deeds is no good practice.

Ummmmmmmm. Indian executive system believes in tail pipe emissions not how a commodity is produced. Belief is taxing maximum and provide minimum. It doesn't matter how, why, when a vehicle is produced. What matters is the belief and narrative of that day.

Our cars have been banned without considering their tail pipe emissions. There has been taxation on engines above 2000cc without considering their tail pipe emissions. We have weirdly shaped vehicles just because they're taxed less due to their length.

Vehicles are being impounded from residential premises for scrapping. As per law they were supposed to challan at first sight and not scrap at sight. Sigh.

Properly maintained cars are being sold to other nearby states at throw away prices and still there has been zero change in pollution levels. All this after paying road tax, toll tax, fuel tax, surcharge, and environment cess.

Fuel has been blended with ethanol without giving a damn for older engines and THERE HAS BEEN ZERO RESPITE ON FUEL PRICES. Diesel has been(not sure)/will be blended with ethanol without considering older engines.

Window films have been banned even though maximum permissibility for films was less than 50% just because few people with ill intentions commited crime in those vehicles. They didn't consider one who has to commit crime doesn't care about legality and consequences at all.

Just wait till some EVs catch fire due to negligence and see them start banning left and right.

Things don't work with logic and facts here.

Originally Posted by Mystic

My 2 cents. In a democratic country, decisions cannot be taken with immediate effect retrospectively on any matter for that matter. The final decision can only be taken after the blessings of all stake holders etc. In a country like India , we have roads to cater to bullock carts, 3 wheelers running on kerosene, 3 decades old diesel trucks emitting thick black smoke right in front of the Govt secretariat.

I spent 3 million rupees purchasing a diesel Crysta Z automatic diesel. Nobody can stop
me from using it for next 15 years as the taxes are prepaid.

LOL. Heard about NGT? They did ban diesel vehicles to ply in Delhi NCR area. Had paid a lot of tax for 15 years but had no option but to chicken out due to fear of scrapping after 9.5 years. My 5 year excess tax has not been refunded and there is no procedure for the same. The ban was retrospective.

You'd be surprised to know that state still collects 15 year tax on diesel even after the ban and let them ply for 10 years.

They don't care whether it's prepaid or not. Good Luck with the illusion that nobody can stop you.

For your info, last winters Delhi had started fining BS4 diesel vehicles. Scroll this forum you'll find members who had to cough up around 5000 fine just for plying in their less than 5 year old diesel vehicle for a commute to office.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by Gamemaztr

A noob question,

Is not lithium extraction from mines is more dangerous to the environment and living beings living around such mines?

No, Lithium mining has very less environmental damage than extraction of millions of barrels of oil everyday. One EV needs 7kg of lithium which stays in the car for 15-20years and can be recycled.

I have always feel that present EV's are not as green as they are understood to be. They are only fun to drive and pollute far more than our regular cars. It is just pushing the tailpipe emissions from the car to other sources of pollution.

No, to refine one litre of petrol needs 1.3kwh electricity, so ICE cars have tailpipe emissions + emissions from electricity to refine petrol. EVs only have emissions from electricity generation + some emissions from battery production.

Further, if EV's are claimed to be green, how green is actually their manufacturing process? All parts required to build a EV are transported by Diesel trucks and by Ships running on fossil fuels.

Will you be OK, if tomorrow the govt cancels all transportation until everything is electrified. Everything does not happen in a day.

By the way EVs use less truck and ship transportation, as electricity is sent through electric grid. Meanwhile every litre of petrol in your car needs to be shipped from ME, refined using electricity from grid, transported on diesel trucks to the fuel pumps.

There is no logic to it which I can really understand. Wearing a white cloak over dirty deeds is no good practice.

All govts understand the devastating effects of climate change, EVs are the only future for road transport.

"We've moved beyond the era of global warming, into an era of global boiling" - UN Chief.

[Gamemaztr]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

No, Lithium mining has very less environmental damage than extraction of millions of barrels of oil everyday. One EV needs 7kg of lithium which stays in the car for 15-20years and can be recycled.

Whatever the case, Lithium does cause environmental pollution and is a bio hazard. Presently, Lithium extraction is poorly regulated where it is done (mostly Africa and Latin America) and is the cause of many generations of humans becoming inflicted with diseases and disorders. The alternative to fossil fuels should be bio fuels and not something which will harm the people more. Anything we mine out of the earth to burn will definitely cause harmful pollution.

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

No, to refine one litre of petrol needs 1.3kwh electricity, so ICE cars have tailpipe emissions + emissions from electricity to refine petrol. EVs only have emissions from electricity generation + some emissions from battery production.

This is more complex than it appears. Use of electricity in refineries is not limited to produce one specific commodity. As is generally known, crude oil is used to extract many other types of fuels and lubricants. Hence, it will be incorrect to say 1 lts of Petrol extraction requires 1.3 kWh of electricity since using that electricity, more products might have been manufactured.

For a very bare and crude counter, 1lts of Petrol in a nexon can drive for 17-18 kms while 1.3 kwh of electricity can drive a nexon ev for only 13-14 kms. Since this depends on driving conditions and many other factors, I won't consider this a fair reply.

In this scenario, I generally consider EV's equally polluting to normal ICE cars.

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Will you be OK, if tomorrow the govt cancels all transportation until everything is electrified. Everything does not happen in a day.

Absolutely not. However, the current legislation itself is full of loopholes and useless. If you drive on a highway, you will observe many trucks and lorries emitting thick and black smoke good enough to smear a white paper to pitch black in just 20 seconds. It is not about cancelling the present transportation, it is about regulating it strictly. Also, alternative fuels like biogas and biodiesel can be used and current engines be modified accordingly by making supply of conversion kits mandatory. This will serve the green purpose as well as increase the life of these trucks and lorries, thereby reducing junk waste.

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

By the way EVs use less truck and ship transportation, as electricity is sent through electric grid. Meanwhile every litre of petrol in your car needs to be shipped from ME, refined using electricity from grid, transported on diesel trucks to the fuel pumps.

What this analogy misses is that the fuel manufactured by using this electricity is used in the cars as well as the trucks transporting it to my car. Furthermore, most refineries generally themselves generate electricity using the by-products (petcoke which has higher calorific value than the regular coal) which is way greener compared to electricity generated by ordinary thermal power plants so this component is off. Regarding shipping from middle east, I 100% agree to it.

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

All govts understand the devastating effects of climate change, EVs are the only future for road transport.

"We've moved beyond the era of global warming, into an era of global boiling" - UN Chief.

If the Indian Government would have understood, it would not have been involved in executing inordinate construction projects digging every single mountain with terrain or reclaiming lands from the sea by destroying mangroves.

Also, the current policy of blending ethanol in petrol without taking any opinion from the public is only leading to damaged cars and increase of junk cars beyond the limit of processing capacity available in India is nothing but a very high handed decision.

Just for reference, my 8 month old Brezza which is E10 compliant has to be compulsorily fed E15 or possibly higher Ethanol blended fuel giving me less fuel efficiency, performance and degrading the service life of my car. I genuinely sometimes feel that this is a clear propoganda on behalf of the vested parties to show ICE cars in bad light and have them banned.

IMO, the present fuels need to be replaced by biofuels till the time we develop the technology and protocols to safely harvest and recycle Lithium and in the longer run, depend on H2O batteries which prima facie seem to be the safest and greenest alternative.

Regarding Mr. Guterres, he is a hardened politician (former two PM of Portugal) so I can't take his word with a pinch (A ladle spoonful) of salt.

Everything that is made has to be destroyed (albeit Organically). No one escapes the ultimate destiny.

Also, isn't the problem rising temperatures?

[aim120]

Originally Posted by Gamemaztr

Whatever the case, Lithium does cause environmental pollution and is a bio hazard. Presently, Lithium extraction is poorly regulated where it is done (mostly Africa and Latin America) and is the cause of many generations of humans becoming inflicted with diseases and disorders. The alternative to fossil fuels should be bio fuels and not something which will harm the people more. Anything we mine out of the earth to burn will definitely cause harmful pollution.

Up until recently the oil companies which also make grease where the primary users of lithium. IC powered cars have lot more moving parts and lot more bearings, shafts etc which means it uses more lithium grease then lithium grease used in EVs. But yes the EVs still use more lithium in batteries. Lithium is also used in pharmaceutical and other industries.

This is more complex than it appears. Use of electricity in refineries is not limited to produce one specific commodity. As is generally known, crude oil is used to extract many other types of fuels and lubricants. Hence, it will be incorrect to say 1 lts of Petrol extraction requires 1.3 kWh of electricity since using that electricity, more products might have been manufactured.

For a very bare and crude counter, 1lts of Petrol in a nexon can drive for 17-18 kms while 1.3 kwh of electricity can drive a nexon ev for only 13-14 kms. Since this depends on driving conditions and many other factors, I won't consider this a fair reply.


In this scenario, I generally consider EV's equally polluting to normal ICE cars.

Electricity is used by buring fuel in oil drilling rigs, electricity is used for transporting that oil either via pipe line or by ships running a generator which all use fuel. Once it reaches shore it goes to the refinary which means it is using electricity to pump. After refining, the trucks burns fuel to transport it to fuel depo or by pumping using electricity and again another truck transports it to the petrol bunk. To pump the fuel to the car, electricity is again used and your IC powered vehicles will burn fuel every single time till the life of the vehicle. IC vehicles need oil change every single year for just the engine alone.

So the comparison that EVs pollute equally is not remotely close. Once electicity is produced it travels at nearly the speed of light for free and it can be produced by renewable energy.

[Gamemaztr]

Originally Posted by aim120

So the comparison that EVs pollute equally is not remotely close. Once electicity is produced it travels at nearly the speed of light for free and it can be produced by renewable energy.

Even if the electricity is made by way of renewable resources, the transmission of electricity is very complex and definitely not free. The transmission of electricity requires construction of a very complex grid the cost of which can run in to crores. Also setting up charging stations to charge an EV is expensive and requires considerable efforts.

As of today, EV's are way more expensive than the conventional ICE vehicles and these companies want to put an excessive burden on the customers in the name of Green Technology when it is not as green as it is said. What I say is that I am never against EV's but against the Lithium and Cobalt mined and used in excessive manner without any due consideration. Let the EV's come with a more easy and greener H2O battery or any other such alternate which uses very less Lithium and Cobalt for them to be considered truly a green technology.

Apparently, we are going completely out of context wrt to this thread. Right now, a due consideration should be given by the Government to not just ban diesel engines, but work up to have alternative fuel like bio-diesel or bio-gas and make conversion kits available. if not, the government should take up responsibility to refund the road tax collected for 15 years for all pre March 2023 vehicles since the present blended fuel is ought to damage the non Ethanol compliant engines and also look forward to increase the car recycling capacity. Banning Diesels and forcing switch to Petrols and EV's isn't right.