[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by supermax

Nose ahead? That is not how order of overtaking is calculated here. This is not an F1 overtake we are discussing. Here, the one on the passing lane has priority. If a car is already on the passing lane and in the process of passing me, I should'nt get in the way. My being ahead of him has zero importance. I should wait for him to make the pass on me and then and only then should I pick a good moment for my own pass, indicate, and then make the pass.

Accidents are a chain of events and fault lies across the wider spectrum of people. You can’t pin point at one thing.

Sorry, you don’t have to get to compare it with F1. It wasn’t neither a race track nor they were racing. You mean, a passing vehicle across the bold line gets “right of way” in Europe ? That’s what you imply (May be what you are saying is correct with dashed/slotted line), if you see the picture, I guess the responsibility lies with the red car to abort the overtaking mission at that point (even if you say mistake is with other car) rather than taking the chances, isn’t that all about defensive driving, At the end of the day.

Let’s forget momentarily who's right or wrong, a simple question, what would you have done, if you would have been in that Red Ferrari ? Guess that would give you the answer.

Now this is law, interpret the way you want or the lawyer wants “A driver is determined to be negligent if they fail to exercise the amount of caution a reasonable person would under the same circumstances.“

Thanks, nothing more to add.

[supermax]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

ou mean, a passing vehicle across the bold line gets “right of way” in Europe ?

Let’s forget momentarily who's right or wrong, a simple question, what would you have done, if you would have been in that Red Ferrari ? Guess that would give you the answer.

Let's leave aside the solid line, as both violate it. The person who has started the pass first gets priority, and that is the Ferrari. He's also fully on the 'passing' lane (let's forget about the legality or the lack of it for now, as neither the Ferrari nor the Lamborghini drivers have a leg to stand on here), and so he has the right of the way.
You ask a loaded question. What would I do if I'd been in the Red Ferarri. Why don't you ask me what I'd do if I was in the Lambo? This happens on our motorways every once in a while, so it's not even a theoretical question. When I see a slow(er) moving vehicle such as a truck, I plan the pass well in advance. And if there's a car following the truck quite closely (happens sometimes), I give him/her the opportunity to indicate and commence a move, but they often don't. At that point, I indicate a lane change and get onto the passing lane, and from that point onwards, I have the right of the way to make the pass on both vehicles. If at that moment, the idiot starts to pull out, he's totally in the wrong, but yes, I'll try and stop plowing into him by hitting the brakes. This has happened, and the offenders recognize this and generally apologize. In this case, the Ferrari never had a chance to avoid this as Oberoi ran into him from the side, making Oberoi the far bigger idiot. Both of them were guilty of being on the wrong side of the solid line, but Oberoi was also guilty of not checking his mirrors and blindspot, and also not using his blinkers, before making a lane change.

Now, what would I have done if I'd been in the lambo? I'd have checked my mirrors and spotted the fast approaching Ferrari, allowed him to pass, as I should, and then wait till a better point in time when I could make a safe lane change and a quick pass. Indians are in the habit of tailgating and losing all visual reference to what's coming from the opposite side, and they compound this by driving halfway into the oncoming lane, playing chicken with oncoming traffic. This is really, really bad. There's is no reserving a lane change by putting two wheels on the other side and expecting others to give you a free pass. Like I said earlier, this is not like putting a handkerchief and claiming a seat. You have to first check the mirrors to ensure that nobody is already making a pass on you, and then check the blindspot for good measure, indicate and make the lane change quickly. Assuming that you'll be given the priority because you've put the handkerchief aka two wheels, or that you are positioned so close to the camper etc etc won't work. As long as people have these dangerous misconceptions and don't take the time to read up on the rules and what's actually expected of them, these kinds of accidents keep happening. Many Indians who visit EU and drive here are fairly clueless about the rules and the only reason they don't get into accidents is because others give them a wide berth and driving with large safety margins comes naturally to most drivers here. The minute there is another idiot on the road, the safety margin disappears, and that's when you have an incident like this occurring. I really don't like the use of the word accident here, because this was totally preventable, and in this particular case, Oberoi was the one who should have yielded, even if both were in the wrong, and he didn't do so and instead ended up causing a collision with fatal consequences. I hope he pays for it.

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by supermax

Let's leave aside the solid line, as both violate it. The person who has started the pass first gets priority, and that is the Ferrari. He's also fully on the 'passing' lane (let's forget about the legality or the lack of it for now, as neither the Ferrari nor the Lamborghini drivers have a leg to stand on here), and so he has the right of the way.

It is debatable when the Ferrari driver has started the pass. He is still behind when the Lambo starts drifting (further) to the left. Moreover, his lane is not clear at any point of time in the video, so it's again debatable whether he is allowed to start an overtake.

By being on the oncoming lane when there is no danger/obstruction in his own lane, the Ferrari driver has already violated the law (you shall pass only when it is safe and legal to do so). Can you claim right to pass after violating the law? Please let me know of any legislation which covers this scenario.

Originally Posted by supermax

In this case, the Ferrari never had a chance to avoid this

This is as far away from the truth as it can be. The Ferrari starts moving further and further to the left even before the Lambo starts moving. So he definitely knew his lane was not clear, he did not have a clear view of what was ahead of the camper and still wanted to pass. He showed no intention to slow down, when he had every chance to do so.

Originally Posted by supermax

Indians are in the habit of tailgating and losing all visual reference to what's coming from the opposite side, and they compound this by driving halfway into the oncoming lane, playing chicken with oncoming traffic. This is really, really bad.

Driving halfway into the oncoming lane is really really bad, what about being fully on the oncoming lane? The Ferrari guy had no visual reference either, that's why he kept moving further to the left.

[Nilesh5417]

Originally Posted by supermax

Let's leave aside the solid line, as both violate it. .

This is the only fact - nothing else will count in the court of law. The sentence to drivers of both the cars would have been the same had the Ferrari driver been alive. Since he isn't and he is just as responsible for the collision as the Lambo, the Lambo driver alone can't be held responsible for the crash and resulting deaths. The sentence should be proportionate and not compounded for those alive cause one guilty party is dead. That's how I look at it.

Agree with Starrysky here. Who broke the law by how much isn't an argument - its pretty binary.

[supermax]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

Can you claim right to pass after violating the law? Please let me know of any legislation which covers this scenario.

Driving halfway into the oncoming lane is really really bad, what about being fully on the oncoming lane? The Ferrari guy had no visual reference either, that's why he kept moving further to the left.

What we are talking about here is a total disregard to safety and rules by all the parties. But by your argument, if you break one rule, is it better to break every other rule there is also, just because you are already in violation of one rule? Both cars are already in violation of crossing a solid line, but you yourself drive in EU, so it should be pretty clear to you what you'd do, if you saw a fast approaching car in the mirrors; would you choose that moment to make a lane change, that too without even indicating? Or would you wait for a better moment? I saw the videos several times; the point where the Lambo swerves hardest is when the Ferrari is almost alongside him. And the Ferrari wasn't at all going left to get a better view. He was in the left lane, there's nothing more to look at. He wanted to be sure he'd not tangle with the Lambo and gave him some room, but didn't expect the Lambo to turn into him. When he later saw the Lambo cutting towards him, I correct myself in accepting that the Ferrari had a last chance to do a strong braking to avoid, but he thought he'd be able to get by and probably thought the Lambo guy would realize it. It all happens in an instant, but it's clearly two people in clear contravention of the rules. If either of them had exhibited an ounce of defensive driving, this 'accident' would not have occured. It needed two idiots to result in this mess, and they both rose to the occasion.

Originally Posted by Nilesh5417

This is the only fact - nothing else will count in the court of law. The sentence to drivers of both the cars would have been the same had the Ferrari driver been alive. Since he isn't and he is just as responsible for the collision as the Lambo, the Lambo driver alone can't be held responsible for the crash and resulting deaths. The sentence should be proportionate and not compounded for those alive cause one guilty party is dead. That's how I look at it.

Agree with Starrysky here. Who broke the law by how much isn't an argument - its pretty binary.

Both are indeed guilty, but just because one party is dead, I see no reason for the other party to get a clean chit. Don't forget that their stupidity resulted in injuries and damage to the camper and its occupants too. They should be booked for their misdemeanors.

[McLaren Rulez]

It's a good lesson for those who think they are above traffic rules.

I'm hoping the Italian police take a dim view of the situation and prosecute the supercar owners to the full extent of the law. Just because you're rich, doesn't mean you can pull this kind of stunt. They might have gotten away with it in India but hopefully that's not the case there.

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by supermax

But by your argument, if you break one rule, is it better to break every other rule there is also, just because you are already in violation of one rule?

Is your argument that getting yourself into a position on the road by disregarding all rules gets you the right of passage? If you are in such a position you will have to be very lucky to avoid an accident, even if everyone else around is following the rules. Like I said in my earlier post, I am not convinced that Ferrari driver could expect any legal right of way in this scenario. Please provide any reference you have. It will be a learning for me also.

Originally Posted by supermax

Both cars are already in violation of crossing a solid line, but you yourself drive in EU, so it should be pretty clear to you what you'd do,

It's pretty clear to me what I should do on this road - stay in my lane. If I was in the position of the Lambo, like you said, I will be watching my mirrors. If I was in the position of the Ferrari, there's no way I will start accelerating to overtake when the car in the front is occupying part of my lane and I have no idea where he'll go.

OT: I have been stuck behind camper vans on single lane roads like this in Finland without any overtaking opportunity. Many camper guys would pull into the next lay-by for a bus stop and let everyone pass.

Originally Posted by supermax

I saw the videos several times; the point where the Lambo swerves hardest is when the Ferrari is almost alongside him.

It's also the point where the Ferrari straightens out instead of going left.

Originally Posted by supermax

And the Ferrari wasn't at all going left to get a better view. He was in the left lane, there's nothing more to look at. He wanted to be sure he'd not tangle with the Lambo and gave him some room,

If he has to go almost past the edge of the road before even getting alongside the car in front, he has no business overtaking.

The Lambo driver may not have checked his mirrors and missed the Ferrari. But the Ferrari driver had full view of the Lambo at all times.

Originally Posted by supermax

If either of them had exhibited an ounce of defensive driving, this 'accident' would not have occured. It needed two idiots to result in this mess, and they both rose to the occasion.

Agree completely.

[kinetic]

Reading through these comments, I'm getting the sense that some of us will still end up in accidents in that same situation, despite this being a TBHP forum. Comparisons to F1 racing, use of horns, what constitutes tailgating and what doesn't, asking the camper-van to give way (wth?!), line-of-sight, basic road markings, and so many other concepts are still not fully known here.

I figured I'd paste this here to serve as some form of standard since Swedish driving laws are considered to be well laid out and logical: https://korkortonline.se/en/theory/overtaking/

I don't want to hear arguments about how this isn't Sweden and that Italian/Greek driving styles are more aggressive. Laws are based on common sense risk management and they can apply the same everywhere, including India. There's a reason why we have astronomical levels of road fatalities every year.

Its important to remember that every time one drives on a public road, its an exercise in risk management. The more risks we mitigate, the safer we are, and vice versa. If one of either the lambo or the ferrari drivers makes a different choice, its possible there is no accident. Both chose wrong, two people are dead, with two more unsuspecting victims.

[supermax]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

Is your argument that getting yourself into a position on the road by disregarding all rules gets you the right of passage? If you are in such a position you will have to be very lucky to avoid an accident, even if everyone else around is following the rules. Like I said in my earlier post, I am not convinced that Ferrari driver could expect any legal right of way in this scenario. Please provide any reference you have. It will be a learning for me also.
.

Let me try one last time. We aren't talking about anything legal here, but about minimizing the level of illegality. You seem to think that if you are illegal, you shouldn't bother about following anything else remotely sensible or recommended, which I disagree with. The tenets of defensive driving say that you SHOULD NOT try and block or stop any overtaking attempt, even if that overtaking attempt is illegal. Do you know of this and/or accept this? This is what we are taught in Sweden. For instance, if you are on the passing lane at the posted limit, you can't refuse to move aside or try and block an overtaking, just because the person doing it is exceeding the speed limit, or is doing it illegally. That's not our business. Both the Ferrari and the Lambo drivers are not doing anything remotely sensible, but when that Ferrari is moving in that manner, completely on the wrong side, the recommended course of action is to let him pass. Forget about 'Right of the way'. It's still the recommended course of action, to let him past. Show me one place where any rulebook or recommended advice says you have to block an illegal overtake, and instead try to make the pass yourself, without even the use of an indicator. Get my point? The Ferrari was definitely being an idiot, but the Lambo far exceeded that. If one can't be bothered to use the mirror to decide when it is safe to change lanes, and instead expect others coming from behind to take evasive action, that's really not something that any country would endorse.

[Mr.Ogre]

Sorry to say but the way these drivers are trying to go past each other on such a narrow road just shows their immaturity level when it comes to driving on public roads.

Usually when you ride/drive in a convoy or a group especially in such powerful vehicles, you have the basic sense to be careful and not try to inconvenience others.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

Please provide any reference you have. It will be a learning for me also.

Damn, I had to change my opinion on this. Another new learning. Seems as per the law (Swedish) Lamborghini’s driver is in a serious soup.

You must not obstruct the overtake in any way, even if the overtake is illegal or inappropriate.

Swedish Traffic

Thanks @supermax for making me dig out this.

[supermax]

Originally Posted by kinetic

I figured I'd paste this here to serve as some form of standard since Swedish driving laws are considered to be well laid out and logical: https://korkortonline.se/en/theory/overtaking/

I don't want to hear arguments about how this isn't Sweden and that Italian/Greek driving styles are more aggressive. Laws are based on common sense risk management and they can apply the same everywhere, including India. There's a reason why we have astronomical levels of road fatalities every year.

Thanks for digging up the link. This is exactly what I remembered from my own driving lessons and theory prep. I guess I wasn't being clear enough with what I was trying to describe. I've come across scores of people arguing over why they should allow someone else to pass them when they are clearly over the speed limit. It's clearly not our task to do the policing there.

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Damn, I had to change my opinion on this. Another new learning. Seems as per the law (Swedish) Lamborghini’s driver is in a serious soup.

Swedish Traffic

Thanks @supermax for making me dig out this.

Thanks for looking it up. This is indeed the very thing I was trying to describe. Good of you and kinetic to come up with the links. I hope more people read this, understand why this is logical and how this forms the very basis of defensive driving. This truly can save lives, if only people bother to look it up and start implementing it, instead of doing random things, assuming that it is okay to do so, when it's clearly not.

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by supermax

Let me try one last time. We aren't talking about anything legal here, but about minimizing the level of illegality.

Not blocking/aiding overtake is also mentioned in Finland. But I didn't find any mention of illegal overtakes. However, Finnish law also mentions:

The overtaking driver is always responsible for safety during overtaking.

and:

If you start overtaking and realise it is a mistake, you should be able to accept it and get back in your lane.

https://www.liikenneturva.fi/en/road...fe-overtaking/

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Damn, I had to change my opinion on this. Another new learning. Seems as per the law (Swedish) Lamborghini’s driver is in a serious soup.

Swedish Traffic

Thanks @supermax for making me dig out this.

The Swedish law also mentions exactly what I wrote above:

If you find yourself in a dangerous situation when overtaking, you should brake and abandon the overtake.

I am not quite sure how the legal system will assign the responsibility here. In my line of work, I would say "must" is mandatory to do, and "should" is optional But I guess that's not how the law works, especially when it comes to safety.

[keroo1099]

Originally Posted by supermax

Let me try one last time.

My cousin who drives extensively in Europe confirmed that the Lambo driver was the bigger idiot.

[kinetic]

Well, the powers of social media algorithms presented me with this longer version of the same video showing all the action leading up to the accident. Curious to see what else folks make of this now.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cx6bA...on_share_sheet

My immediate thoughts:
1. Nearly everyone in that convoy was reckless, almost as if they were trying to outdo each other
2. The margin for error on every overtake was ridiculous
3. The lambo driver is an even bigger idiot than previously known. He nearly causes a head-on collision with an oncoming motorcycle. Unlike India where motorcyclists are bullied to the edge of the road, riders in EU/US command the full width of the road irrespective of whether they're riding solo or in a staggered group. As a rider myself, such drivers infuriate me. He had no business being behind the wheel and hopefully gets the book thrown at him.
4. I don't know if the person filming was trying to get a video of the supercars, or expecting a mess based on the driving they'd already observed.