[Dr.Suraj]

Originally Posted by gauravdgr8

Overall good review.

However I must say that it is now proving to be more or less true that whatever TATA does, people overall are not satisfied.

Here we have a classic example of a car which has really evolved after being launched in late 2008 to the refresh version in August 2011 and now the D90. That too at a price point wherein our Indian middle class family can easily afford.

Statements like Tata Sales and Service remain a Gamble are things of the past. They are like any other Maruti Service.


Hats off to TATA

I agree totally with the 1st 2 statements and also the last.

It seems to be true - no matter what - it will be hated. Or criticized.

And yes - as I too have been reading across the forum - Tata quality & service both are steadily improving across the country!
So statement's like 'it's a gamble' hold true for Nissan-Renault, Skoda-VW.
(What with Audi's being driven around in the middle of the night)

Tata service is reasonable. Inexpensive. Not unnecessarily high priced.
PERFECT for the common man & average Indian.

And their issue was with the 3rd party service centers like Wasan etc which they are steadily improving.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

On the other hand, Indica is NEVER an aspirational brand. And the majority of Indian car buyers stick to a car for atleast 5 years, it's a status symbol / matter of pride to them! They would NOT want someone to tell them "Did you buy a TATA / Indica? ".

We need to sometimes look beyond just Metro's and Tier 1 cities.

In Mumbai I see a LOT of Honda Cities, Ventos, Vernas.
& then I see Team BHP sales charts every month and any month Indigo+Manza sells more than them.(Only exception Swift Dzire).

& Then I go to Ahmednagar - and I don't even see a Honda amongst 20 Tata's.

& Tata is trying to make a 'Balanced' product for the masses.
Always has. Always will.
Not trying to make a complete power performer or a total luxury which is a niche market.

Best of both worlds kinda thing. (If not best - atleast most).

When launched Manza was the ONLY one with such awesome leg room, space & luxury in that price range (as compared to the relatively cramped Swift).

But Tata NEVER learns to market it right or advertise it right.
Like Sunny.

Wish they tried to get things right at 1st shot - rather than after 6 months to 2 years.

[rjalihal]

Its great to see how much TATA has matured over the years. Just wanted to share the difference in the dashboard between the old Indica and the D90. This is indeed a big move ahead. At least they are heading in the right direction. One feature of the review I really liked is the 12V socket next to the parcel tray! Ideal to charge mobile phones for rear passengers!

Cheers!
Rohan

[safari_lover]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

I am sure everyone appreciates what TATA has done with the D90. But is it enough to garner sales; am not sure, I do NOT think it is. The reason is the baggage that TATA is carrying!

Merely removing the "Indica" badge would NOT get rid of it, an all new brand does - they should have been careful about that when the launch happened. And I am yet to come across any review or ownership reports which suggested need of additional power on the Vista.

The problem with TATA is they are never there or here! If you ask me, I would say D90 is a half baked product - they should have gone for stiffer suspension to handle extra power. From the review it is evident that the car is NOT a corner crave'r nor a comfortable carrier!

Vista D90 will be more of a competition to the i20 than the Swift, IMO. Even i20 with its 90BHP engine isn't a corner craver. But it is a feature rich family car. Of course, i20 comes with the Hyundai brand which is much more aspirational compared to Tata, but it also comes at a premium. Vista D90 could become a good VFM alternative to it.

About the sales and service experience, I think, Tata has already started the work on improving them, like, by opening two large showroom formats in Mumbai and Delhi, that are, reportedly, impressive. They are about to open them next in places like Bangalore, Pune, et al, IIRC.

Lastly, while this product may not bring in a lot of sales, it will definitely help in generating a positive vibe towards newer products from TaMo, which will go a long way in deciding the success of their new launches, if and when they happen.

[SKavuri]

Originally Posted by gauravdgr8

They are white on the 75 bhp one too Swiftnfurious.

Overall good review.

However I must say that it is now proving to be more or less true that whatever TATA does, people overall are not satisfied.

....


I think we should atleast praise the manufacturer for providing a product at 6 lacs. Can anyone else even think of doing it? What does it actually take, to increase the engine power from 75 bhp to 90. An RD box costs 20k, and that's what Tata has done. Only increased the price by 20k from the normal version.

Hats off to TATA

I agree with most of the points by gauravdgr8.

Let me put in a disclaimer first : I am a normal driver and not an enthusiast driver who does spirited driving. I am also not so brand conscious that a popular brand is more aspirational.

Having owned the first gen Vista-2008 for 4 years and having done some long trips, I can say it is a comfortable, reliable and economical car and deserves more respect that what it normally gets.

I also agree that Tata service is not a gamble anymore. All the issues, including guarantee issues got resolved with a smile.

I also liked the "ramp-mode" , where the car rolls without throttle input and adjusts the power to suit the incline. This was really useful as my parking was in a basement with small gaps and I used it daily to get out of parking. I believe this feature is available in few cars.

Power was not an issue so I do not understand why they raised the power.

Body roll due to soft suspension was an issue especially out of city, so the stiffer suspension is welcome.

Improvement in interiors is always welcome.

I sold my Vista last August as I was going on a overseas assignment. But when I return back, I will seriously look at Vista again.

[moralfibre]

Originally Posted by Dr.Suraj

I was totally expecting that line : Fit & finish still aren't up to the mark. They leave a lot to be desired

But I did not find enough evidence of the same.
I know for a fact that they are definitely improving there and a lot of changes have been made in a positive direction.

Of course they have and there's no denying that. Please go through the earlier review by FlyingSpur and you'll notice that they have come quite a distance ahead. The power window switches for example did not come off its position despite driving the car on broken rural roads.

When I said, "leaves a lot to be desired", I am placing the car in direct comparison with the i20 and the Swift. One look at the panel gaps, the fittings, the touch and feel on the i20 and the Swift vis-a-vis the Vista and you'll realize that there's still some time for Tata to catch up on quality. Just adding ultra tough to use materials does not resound to good quality.

Try adjusting the steering height in the Vista in comparison to the i20 and the Swift you'll figure out what I am talking about. While at that, do look at the gaping exposed hole behind the steering when its adjused to it's lowest height and you'll see it is covered by a tyre tube like material.

Rest everything makes for a total VFM package overall. Safety, features, everything!

Agreed completely! The package at the price point is tempting.

Vista is WAAAY more spacious than the Swift.
i20 is the real competition where Tata can score with VFM, pricing, maintenance & the AMCs.

Engineering and marketing department at Tata are hoping to dent sales of the Swift as we figured out in our interactions with them.

Originally Posted by gauravdgr8

Overall good review.
However I must say that it is now proving to be more or less true that whatever TATA does, people overall are not satisfied.

People do buy good products. If that weren't the case, the expensive i20 would not have sold steadily at 8000 cars a month that is much more than the Indica + Vista combined. Satisfying the customers is at the hands of car companies and their products. Look at the Renault Duster and see where it took Renault year on year.

Statements like Tata Sales and Service remain a Gamble are things of the past. They are like any other Maruti Service.

When I recollect my Mumbai Sai service days, service at Concorde has been 1 star category higher.

Buddy, I can tell you for sure that Maruti service stations fare much better than Tata's with respect to customer satisfaction and this is purely going by the ownership reviews on Team-bhp.

Having driven the Vista for 23k in a year, driven across Rajasthan on a road trip of 6 k, with absolutely no issues, other than the Front Anti Roll Bushes being changed under warranty. speaks about the reliability of the product. Specially me being an impulsive driver.

Perhaps the single largest reliability addition on the Vista has been the Fiat engine. Both the 74 and 89bhp engines are workhorses known to serve for miles together.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

The problem with TATA is they are never there or here! If you ask me, I would say D90 is a half baked product - they should have gone for stiffer suspension to handle extra power. From the review it is evident that the car is NOT a corner crave'r nor a comfortable carrier!

The suspension IS stiff. It however doesn't translate to the car being a good handler.

Originally Posted by SKavuri

I also agree that Tata service is not a gamble anymore. All the issues, including guarantee issues got resolved with a smile.

Tata motors has a very generous warranty resolution mechanism from what I have learned. How many times it is used? Ask moderator Tanveer. He has had quite a truck full of parts replaced on his Safari.

I also liked the "ramp-mode" , where the car rolls without throttle input and adjusts the power to suit the incline. This was really useful as my parking was in a basement with small gaps and I used it daily to get out of parking. I believe this feature is available in few cars.

That is true on all Diesel engines and is not a feature.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by gauravdgr8

What does it actually take, to increase the engine power from 75 bhp to 90. An RD box costs 20k, and that's what Tata has done.

D90 uses the more expensive variable geometry turbo whereas regular Vista uses fixed geometry.

Incidentally, even Indica CR4 uses VGT!

[Turbokick]

Originally Posted by moralfibre

What you'll like:

• 89 BHP Vista is noticeably punchier than the regular 74 BHP variant. Improved low-end torque
• NVH levels are impressive. Nearly petrol-like.

Thanks moralfibre for the detailed review.

I have queries regarding the engine.

1. How is driveability compared to Swift and Manza ? And the new multijet engine holder Sail ?

2. How is the NVH when compared to the 75hp Vista ? And ofcourse Swift and Sail ?

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by safari_lover

Vista D90 will be more of a competition to the i20 than the Swift, IMO. Even i20 with its 90BHP engine isn't a corner craver. But it is a feature rich family car. Of course, i20 comes with the Hyundai brand which is much more aspirational compared to Tata, but it also comes at a premium. Vista D90 could become a good VFM alternative to it.

i20 & Vista?! I do NOT think these match up on anything other than the 90 bhp & space. I believe i20 sells more on the basis of it's interior quality. People die for it's premium feel. I do not think Vista comes any close! One look at the touch screen unit & see the edges and bad fit.

[sushantr5]

Originally Posted by Turbokick

Thanks moralfibre for the detailed review.

I have queries regarding the engine.

1. How is driveability compared to Swift and Manza ? And the new multijet engine holder Sail ?

2. How is the NVH when compared to the 75hp Vista ? And ofcourse Swift and Sail ?

1) Drivability of vista is greatest plus from the time it is introduced. It requires less gear changes, You can gather momentum in 3rd gear from 20 kmph. This is with my experience with 74 bhp, 90 bhp it will be even better as VGT can get you some more torque at lower rpms. It can potter in city with very less gear changes compared to figo or swift. first two gears are really short and 3rd and 4th gears are really tall.

2) NVH is also great compared to any other diesel car. Original 74 bhp vista was rated better than other in terms of NVH.

I have extensive driving experience with figo and old swift. I have not driven SAIL and i20 so can not compare with them.

[iceman7]

I LOVE IT!!

The VISTA now becomes my top recommendation for anyone in the market for a VFM hatch. My biggest grouse with the earlier Vista was the centrally placed speedometer console.

Nice work TATA

Now, if only you gave some better looking alloys on the ZX+ version.....

[Dr.Suraj]

Originally Posted by moralfibre

Try adjusting the steering height in the Vista in comparison to the i20 and the Swift you'll figure out what I am talking about. While at that, do look at the gaping exposed hole behind the steering when its adjused to it's lowest height and you'll see it is covered by a tyre tube like material.

Agreed completely! The package at the price point is tempting.


Buddy, I can tell you for sure that Maruti service stations fare much better than Tata's with respect to customer satisfaction and this is purely going by the ownership reviews on Team-bhp.



Perhaps the single largest reliability addition on the Vista has been the Fiat engine. Both the 74 and 89bhp engines are workhorses known to serve for miles together.


That is true on all Diesel engines and is not a feature.

How many times does 1 adjust the steering (even in a single day's ride) as compared to power window switches or the door handles?
And anyone would prefer to have more Features or Space as compared to a 'Steering column handle' that - if it is a single driver car would be used hardly ever.


The review does not mention this in so many words. Neither hints at this.

Those same threads on Team BHP are also steadily highlighting the growing change towards the marked improvement at Tata service centers.

I too can vouch - since 8 years. And from torture in Indica days to total peace of mind & VFM in my Manza & Nano days. Where now even the smallest complaint is attended for 'permanent' with a smile & as far as possible NO cost is passed on to the customer & the AMC & warranty takes care of everything you could wish for.
So it is not really still a 'gamble!'.
A gamble is unknown probabilities or outcomes. Like unknown entities, lesser proven vehicles in the Indian market - Renult, Nissan, Volvo, to some extent Skoda VW Audi group. A gamble would be the 'new' Fiat dealerships that NOW open up.
Here - enough evidence to prove things are taking an upward route, a turn for the better. If nothing - atleast you ALWAYS get proper, prompt responses whenever you escalate the issue.

Indeed! Totally agree. Thank God for that gem of an engine. The old Indica diesel doing the rounds on countless taxis for lakhs of kms across the country was NO where as awesome as this engine. Couple with the 'hard to break' Tata solid body makes for a complete workhorse.

Yes. It is mentioned like the '500 new features' Swift was launched with!

[girishglg]

Must say a nice round up review of the latest upgrade on the Vista. The D90 is surely one of the best foot forward for Tata in such troubled times.

Some things that stand out for this car from the review are -

1. Engine with good power delivery and negligible lag with hvac on
2. Good brakes and standard safety features such as ABS
3. New interiors with Manza dash giving it a conventional look

Though areas of improvement such as panel gaps and fit and finish are always there to be addressed, the question is that if this car is reliable in most aspects and does not start falling apart after a couple of years of use, then it should really pull up the company's fortune surely but slowly. A case in point Sumo Gold.

Yes still wary of an feature called TASS. Anyway good luck Tata!

[rock75]

I think team bhp reviewers should stop using generic statements like 'service is a gamble'. Tata's are definitely making an effort and that should be appreciated.

In my opinion Tata motors should change the external design of vista and Manza to a more contemporary design ASAP to come back in reckoning. Maybe they can use this design to replace Indica.

[extreme_torque]

The last review was Indica Vista Refresh in September 2011 and 17 months forward, the negatives remain the same. Makes it look like Tata haven't progressed at all

From the Vista Refresh review.

What you won’t:

• Fit and finish need improvement. Exterior panel gaps are inconsistent too
• Soft suspension setup. Best driven sedately
• Centrally-mounted instrument cluster takes some getting used to
• Niggling issues & irritants persist (as reported by existing Vista owners)
• Tata’s after-sales-service remains a gamble

From this review

What you won’t:

• Stiffened suspension means ride quality isn't as soft & absorbent as the 74 BHP Vista
• Fit & finish still aren't up to the mark. They leave a lot to be desired
• Top-end performance is missing. Swift is faster, Punto 90 more fun to drive
• Mediocre 232 liter boot size
• Niggling issues & irritants persist (as reported by existing Vista owners)
• Tata’s after-sales-service remains a gamble

[Dr.Suraj]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

The last review was Indica Vista Refresh in September 2011 and 17 months forward, the negatives remain the same. Makes it look like Tata haven't progressed at all

From the Vista Refresh review.

What you won't:

• Fit and finish need improvement. Exterior panel gaps are inconsistent too
• Soft suspension setup. Best driven sedately
• Centrally-mounted instrument cluster takes some getting used to
• Niggling issues & irritants persist (as reported by existing Vista owners)
• Tata's after-sales-service remains a gamble

From this review

What you won't:

• Stiffened suspension means ride quality isn't as soft & absorbent as the 74 BHP Vista
• Fit & finish still aren't up to the mark. They leave a lot to be desired
• Top-end performance is missing. Swift is faster, Punto 90 more fun to drive
• Mediocre 232 liter boot size
• Niggling issues & irritants persist (as reported by existing Vista owners)
• Tata's after-sales-service remains a gamble

So,

Earlier suspension was too soft?
And now it is too hard?

Is it just a copy paste or have parameters been re-evaluated?

Are fit & finish are still AS bad as 17 months ago?
I seriously doubt!

Is it still the same gamble? Surely not.
A lot has changed over 17 months for sure.

Niggling issues are still persistent in the new car?
How? Verified? Thr car was just launched!

I agree with all statements Team BHP must not use generic statement and a refresh review should also be refreshed.
Not copy paste.