[FINTAIL]

Originally Posted by autocrat

Fellow Fiatians,


Any other design was there?

KEEP THAT GRILLE. IT IS WORTH IT'S WEIGHT IN GOLD!!

That aside; following are the types of grille's used :

1964 / 1965 FIAT 1100 Delight:

Seen here on MTJ 2146, a seafoam green Delight from Poona.

(as you can see, the squarish grille was found on the 1964/1965 Delights. The grille pattern was an exact replica of the pattern on the 1964 Fiat 1100 Super Select / Fiat 1100 Export)

Seen below, is a line of older FIAT's, the rightmost one is a Pune registered 1957 FIAT Elegant; and the leftmost car is a very original 1964 Super Select, Bombay registered. The other two cars, are also Super Selects.



The 1965/1966 to end of 1972 FIAT 1100 Delights:

Seen here on MTJ 4150; one of Team-BHP Mod @Karlosdeville's 71-72 Delights:

(Grille was made up of aluminium)



On the 1973 Premier President-

Seen here on MTJ 648, a Pune registered 1973 Premier President-

Very original car, now owned by *someone* in Bombay:



A close up of the grille- on a 1971/72 Delight, Bombay registered, that used to be seen in Poona:

How the car got the President grille? Well, god knows.



I took that pic in one of the bylanes off FC Road. The car is a 1100 Delight, which is rather evident- note the 'long' bumper guards- they look beautiful, don't they?

There is a noticeable difference b/w the 1100D and the President grilles.

Most noticeable, is the fact that the President grille came with the ''PAL'' logo, which looked very similar to the FIAT logo found on the older FIAT 1100 Delight's.

Really rare monogramme, as rare as hen's teeth, and was in production for only 12 odd months in 1972/73.

[autocrat]

Originally Posted by FINTAIL

[i]
There is a noticeable difference b/w the 1100D and the President grilles.

Most noticeable, is the fact that the President grille came with the ''PAL'' logo, which looked very similar to the FIAT logo found on the older FIAT 1100 Delight's.

Really rare monogramme, as rare as hen's teeth, and was in production for only 12 odd months in 1972/73.

Dear Sir,

Many thanks for all the information! The metal grills themselves are so beautiful! My copy needs some loving restoring. Buried in sands of time for 20 odd years, it could only survive as its aluminium.

[boeuff]

Took the weekend to do another 300 Km shakedown trip, early in the trip the brakes suddenly started binding and the pedal loaded up completely, loosened a nipple in a wheel to release the pressure, increased the pedal free play a little as I felt the piston may not have been coming to the end of the stroke. After that ran beautiful

[FINTAIL]

Originally Posted by autocrat

Dear Sir,

Many thanks for all the information! The metal grills themselves are so beautiful! My copy needs some loving restoring. Buried in sands of time for 20 odd years, it could only survive as its aluminium.

Now, if you look at the pics of @boeuff's 1976 Padmini, you'll notice one thing: It has the same grille as the Premier President.

Only the ''PAL" logo is a bit different. And that indeed, is correct for the early Padmini's. The President grille was retained, but with the new logo.

In the 1980's there was a whole host of changes, which made the PP a bit worse. As early as '75-76, I believe, the gearbox underwent some cost cutting, there were some changes made to the gearbox design.

In the 1980's, a plasticy, chrome grille was introduced. And the Premier Padmini ''Economy'' had a black grille, with a honeycombish pattern. Cost cutting, obviously, for the ''Economy'' version.

In addition to all this, before I forget, lol- I think the 1100D also had a lovely grille called the ''chromodora''. These were Italian made, I believe, and could be added as a dealer accessory.

A pic of a 1100D, with the (very, very, very rare) Chromodora grille (that I got off the net) :



These 'Chromodora' Grills were made of White metal and chromed. Once they develop pitting due to neglect or long unattended storage, more often than they cannot be re-chromed to their original state.

Sigh- they really look lovely, when properly chromed (as in the pic above)

_______________________

[Anwesh]

Originally Posted by FINTAIL

As early as '75-76, I believe, the gearbox underwent some cost cutting, there were some changes made to the gearbox design.

Any details available about these changes that can help identify pre and post change gearboxes?

Regards,

[autocrat]

Originally Posted by FINTAIL

Now, if you look at the pics of @boeuff's 1976 Padmini, you'll notice one thing: It has the same grille as the Premier President.

Only the ''PAL" logo is a bit different. And that indeed, is correct for the early Padmini's. The President grille was retained, but with the new logo.

Was any PAL logo made in metal?

Originally Posted by FINTAIL

In addition to all this, before I forget, lol- I think the 1100D also had a lovely grille called the ''chromodora''. These were Italian made, I believe, and could be added as a dealer accessory.

A pic of a 1100D, with the (very, very, very rare) Chromodora grille (that I got off the net) :

Attachment 1437054

These 'Chromodora' Grills were made of White metal and chromed. Once they develop pitting due to neglect or long unattended storage, more often than they cannot be re-chromed to their original state.

Sigh- they really look lovely, when properly chromed (as in the pic above)

_______________________

Thanks a lot for the information on chromodora! Behram Sir too had mentioned about this grille.

When challenged with cheaper cost products in the market, the only path chosen is to make our product cheaper to meet a price. Sad, but that's the easiest way i guess.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by FINTAIL

As early as 75-76, I believe, the gearbox underwent some cost cutting, there were some changes made to the gearbox design. I think the 1100D also had a lovely grille called the ''Chromodora''. These were Italian made, I believe, and could be added as a dealer accessory. A picture of a 1100D, with the (very, very, very rare) Chromodora grille.

Dear Gowtham - In 1975, the integrated keyway in the ID of the phosphor bronze bushes for the second and third gears was removed as a "value engineering" () exercise! Turned ID bushes were introduced. This eliminated the ID broaching operation and saved huge cost. The design premise was that when the main shaft nut is tightened, all the tolerance stack-up will ensure that the bushes do not rotate with relation to the main shaft but in reality this did not happen. The bushes rotated, leading to friction and jamming of the bushes on the main shaft. I have seen numerous main shafts burnt in this interface area. This immediately lead to bush face wear which had an axial design clearance of 0.1mm with the driving second and third gears. Due to this, the effective main shaft nut torque reduced and the whole assembly just came apart. This is also the main reason for second gear crashing in Premier Padmini cars made after 1975, the other reason is counter shaft flex as the second gear pair is housed as a cantilever in the rear housing.

There is a "Chromodora Italiana" grille story also. In 1984, some 200 grilles were officially imported for meeting the production requirements. Enjoy the photograph of the "Chromodora Italiana" grille fitted on my left hand drive! This is one out of the 200 imported, I had bought it in 1984. Similarly, stainless steel bumpers were imported in 1990. I still have a set lying with me! . ENJOY!

PAL monograms were never made in metal, even the vertical monogram was made only in plastic.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[FINTAIL]

Originally Posted by autocrat

Was any PAL logo made in metal?

I think so, yes.

Here is a rarity, a Premier Bus. Was spotted in Poona by Karlosdeville, circa 2008.

Notice that huge PAL logo. I wonder, if it was made up of metal. Maybe yes?

Originally Posted by Anwesh

Any details available about these changes that can help identify pre and post change gearboxes?

Regards,

Kindly refer BD Sir's previous post.

The GB units made after 1975 had a tendency to crash about a bit, in the second gear.

The older GB units, are perfect! The GB in our '72 1100D still performs perfectly!

_____________________

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by FINTAIL

Here is a rarity, a Premier Bus. Was spotted in Poona by Karlosdeville, circa 2008. Notice that huge PAL logo. I wonder, if it was made up of metal. Maybe yes? The gearbox units made after 1975 had a tendency to crash about a bit, in the second gear. The older GB units are perfect! The GB in our '72 1100D still performs perfectly!

Dear Fintail - no please, these big logos were also of plastic. Making them in sheet metal would have called for a complicated die, you think it would happen? Oh come on now. There were some commercial vehicles lying in scrap inside the plant till they went to ground, I had seen them. The commercial vehicles were called "PREMIER ROADMASTER". The big bus chassis had a suffix saying SFIP (straight frame inline pump)! By the way, I have actually seen FARGO vans being manufactured in the Kurla plant in 1977. The cabs were all in light green color. .

Yes, gearboxes of cars made after 1975 have a tendency to crash second gear. Original fiat gearboxes are perfect, they will run forever! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[autocrat]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Gowtham - In 1975, the integrated keyway in the ID of the phosphor bronze bushes for the second and third gears was removed as a "value engineering" () exercise! Turned ID bushes were introduced. This eliminated the ID broaching operation and saved huge cost. The design premise was that when the main shaft nut is tightened, all the tolerance stack-up will ensure that the bushes do not rotate with relation to the main shaft but in reality this did not happen. The bushes rotated, leading to friction and jamming of the bushes on the main shaft. I have seen numerous main shafts burnt in this interface area. This immediately lead to bush face wear which had an axial design clearance of 0.1mm with the driving second and third gears. Due to this, the effective main shaft nut torque reduced and the whole assembly just came apart. This is also the main reason for second gear crashing in Premier Padmini cars made after 1975, the other reason is counter shaft flex as the second gear pair is housed as a cantilever in the rear housing.

Question: What I understand is, the positive locking of key was replaced by friction?

Most importantly, if I get a pre-75 gear box, I should pick it up

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

There is a "Chromodora Italiana" grille story also. In 1984, some 200 grilles were officially imported for meeting the production requirements. Enjoy the photograph of the "Chromodora Italiana" grille fitted on my left hand drive! This is one out of the 200 imported, I had bought it in 1984. Similarly, stainless steel bumpers were imported in 1990. I still have a set lying with me! . ENJOY!

PAL monograms were never made in metal, even the vertical monogram was made only in plastic.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

This chromadora does look very very nice! The bulge in the bonnet, and the red roll cage tell a different story altogether!

Originally Posted by FINTAIL

I think so, yes.

Here is a rarity, a Premier Bus. Was spotted in Poona by Karlosdeville, circa 2008.

Notice that huge PAL logo. I wonder, if it was made up of metal. Maybe yes?

Attachment 1437136

The registration plate says its post 1990! Interesting!

[Anwesh]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Gowtham - In 1975, the integrated keyway in the ID of the phosphor bronze bushes for the second and third gears was removed as a "value engineering" () exercise! Turned ID bushes were introduced. This eliminated the ID broaching operation and saved huge cost. The design premise was that when the main shaft nut is tightened, all the tolerance stack-up will ensure that the bushes do not rotate with relation to the main shaft but in reality this did not happen. The bushes rotated, leading to friction and jamming of the bushes on the main shaft. I have seen numerous main shafts burnt in this interface area. This immediately lead to bush face wear which had an axial design clearance of 0.1mm with the driving second and third gears. Due to this, the effective main shaft nut torque reduced and the whole assembly just came apart. This is also the main reason for second gear crashing in Premier Padmini cars made after 1975, the other reason is counter shaft flex as the second gear pair is housed as a cantilever in the rear housing.

Sir, is there any solution to this problem, other than hunting for a pre 75 gearbox?

Regards,

[boeuff]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

[b][u]

Yes, gearboxes of cars made after 1975 have a tendency to crash second gear. Original fiat gearboxes are perfect, they will run forever! .

True, my long dead uncle's millicento and another 1100D had such butter smooth gear changes, I had the second gear crash problem which was solved after I replaced a broken spring clip in the synchroniser.
However all gears are quite notchy, I wonder if there is a cure for the notchy gearshifts.

[autocrat]

After the jet was changed to 102.5 I re-timed and adjusted the carburettor, the car spews out lots of water in cold and runs smoothly. The car pulls nicely, and on inclines I don't need to downshift.

You can just sit in front of this car and admire it all day

[Cyberdoctorind]

Thanks to this tread and guidance by Behram Sir, I have been able to re-time my Padmini. My car needs a clutch replacement and I am looking for guidance to do it myself in case it is possible

[sankar009]

Isnt this a President?, seen in a workshop in Kerala