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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker Feel sorry for the occupants, but this is a live example of why NEVER to buy a Tata/Mahindra or any Indian vehicle. |
Correction. This is a live example of why you shouldn't drink and drive. Or are you suggesting that the accident had nothing to do with drunk driving, and that it would've been okay to drink and drive in a German/Jap car?
Incidentally, the safest rated cars in the world are essentially Chinese.
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker They falsify all their ratings and actually cut costs for the road going variants. That's not how a Pseudo SUV should be crushed. |
Those are some mighty claims. So how is it then that Hyundai and Kia, and even Suzuki seem unable to falsify their ratings as well? Considering that they are much bigger players in the global market, they should be able to easily falsify the ratings as well, right?
The NCAP crash tests are conducted at a speed of 64 kph. This is because if they conducted the tests at a higher speed, even the best cars wouldn't pass. More importantly, there is an expectation that the drivers of the vehicles would be alert enough and driving at speeds sane enough that they would be able to bring the vehicle speeds down to these speeds, or lower. In fact, several countries have NCAP speeds even lower at 56 kmph.
Even then, the Indian made Suzuki Swift and the VW Polo didn't score a single star in the tests the first time around, because they deliberately cut down the safety features on lower variants to save money. There is documented proof that the Swift sold in India is missing essential safety bits that are present on the Euro model. And VW owners themselves have revealed on the forum that quality is getting worse over the years.
So, let's not make this a contest of "German/Jap build quality vs Indian Jugaad", just because you have some unfounded and preconceived notions regarding Indian companies and are determined to vent them on this forum. Instead, let's look at the facts. This was a high speed crash involving inebriated driver, where both vehicles were overspeeding. A car is after all made of steel, not vibranium. Every structural member was once a blank sheet of steel, and it was bent into its form by applying force. So it is given that it will deform given a sufficient application of force. Force=mass X acceleration, so the higher the mass or acceleration, the greater the force will be. In this case, the opposing mass came in the form of a fully loaded, over speeding bus, weighing over 15 tons.
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker I still fail to understand why people still buy them. Is your life cheaper than these vehicles? I guess NOT. I'd rather spend more to get a comparable or spend the same to get a lower variant of a German/Japanese vehicle but never ever am I ever gonna buy an Indian or a Korean vehicle. That's for sure! |
Failures are the stepping stones to success. If you try I'm sure you could definitely understand why people would buy cars you don't personally prefer, or have different priorities than your own.
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker Unless you're hell bent on scrapping your car purposely, it's almost impossible to get any Japanese/German vehicle into the shape of that Mahindra in the post above. |
From that statement, I take it you're not a regular visitor to these threads.
Just go through the thread, and you'll see all the Germans and Japs in similar and worse conditions after crashes. You do recall that Princess Diana died in a car crash, and it was an S Class Merc she was in? And this was when S Class merc were heavy juggernauts.
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker I mean if you've worked closely or even visited their design departments and seen the manufacturing process, you'll know what I mean. I speak from my experience and my long experience on working on cars of almost all companies. I'd rather not make a lose statement otherwise. I know what I'm talking about. |
Interesting. Would you mind revealing specifics? I mean is your experience based on actually working at German, Japanese and Indian plants?
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker You really don't know how dirty Indian brands play to earn that kind of money at the cost of fickle minded consumers. You don't just go and buy Jaguar Land Rover by playing it right and being a domestic manufacturer of compromised cars, trucks and buses. You either have a great wealth from a long history of Automotive business and racing championships with accolades to your name (Which is just not the case with any Indian or Korean Automakers) or you're making good money from offering cheap quality stuff to people. Ever wonder how Geely (Chinese) acquired Volvo? Food for thought. |
Tata and Mahindra have been making cars for decades, agreed. They've made a lot of money from making basic CVs and basic passenger vehicles, also agreed. Geely did pretty much the same thing, sure.
But here you are, saying that Tata acquiring Land Rover and eventually using a Land Rover platform to build a sub 20 lac vehicle is some kind of dirty play. And Mahindra acquiring Ssangyong, a company that essentially made rebranded old Mercedes vehicles, is also 'Dirty', and the same thing for Geely as well, who has acquired Volvo, and is now making some really "Dirty Play" Volvo S60s and V60s, (safest rated cars in the world BTW, but they could be faking the ratings too, since Geely now owns them..
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker There's a lot to read and understand about before coming to any conclusion and if almost everyone did that we won't be seeing manuals replaced with automatics or combustion engines replaced with electrics and definitely no one would ever buy such rip off brands like Tata, Mahindra, Hyundai, Kia etc. Trust me, the deeper you go the more you realize how these brands rip you off without you even knowing about it. |
Aah, the plot thickens. However, this is too generic. Please explain why someone shouldn't buy a Tata Harrier or an XUV700 automatic, which uses a Japanese Aisin TC gearbox, AFAIK. And almost every AMT in India is made by Marelli and Bosch/Siemens.
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker Since I've taken apart a lot of these cars, I can tell you the low quality of replicas these companies use to build their cars. It's terrible! |
We could really use this information here. Please tell us specifically what is wrong with the XUV700 construction, that you wouldn't EVER buy it. This info could be vital for potential buyers. Generic comments though, aren't worth their weight in sewage unless backed by actual facts. While you're there, also tell us about other fake 4/5 star cars, such as the Tata Nexon, and why you think the rating is fake, and there's a difference between the production cars and testing vehicles.
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker You know anyone can quote those numbers. A lot of Made in India products come printed with "Export Quality" or "High Quality" on their flimsy boxes while they're of laughable quality . They can publish anything because who's gonna ask here in India? |
First of all, lets stick to cars on this forum. Secondly, we the consumers are "gonna ask here in India", and we have. On this forum alone, we have stood together against auto makers' malpractices on numerous occasions, and raised our voice together to protest, and pooled our resources to help out a fellow customer. While it is sad that there are no anti lemon laws, there is precedent of strong action against companies for false advertising and unsafe practices. Recently, a car owner was able to successfully sue a car maker for not offering a full size spare wheel. But I doubt that a german/japanaese drunk driver would be able to sue their car maker for not protecting them fully in a 100 mph crash.
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker Also, those numbers mean nothing if the material being used is not in the right place. I can build a tank like vehicle but it would still be a piece of junk if I didn't reinforce it at the right places. They DON'T mention that! |
They do mention that. Almost every car launch nowadays has a model of the car superstructure with steel distribution clearly demarcated.
This is from the XUV700 launch, BTW.
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker I'd rather take those numbers with a grain of salt unless Tata/Mahindra is willing to supply a certificate with those numbers and VIN of the car printed clearly for every car being sold so that they can be challenged later on in case of an unfortunate event like this one above. |
Have you worked at these plants to be so sure that there is no standardised process for assembling a car? That seems rather absurd. "I have a friend who works at X company saying they don't follow procedure" is just unsubstantiated hearsay.
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker It wasn't until 2003 that they had the chance to control the lineup as they wanted to and now they're just capitalizing on a successful recipe that worked for them. |
True, it has only been almost 2 decades since Suzuki has been at the reins and it is clearly not enough time to get their act together and make safe cars. When it is the Germans and Japanese doing it, they are "capitalising on a successful recipe" and when it is the Indian brands, they are "playing dirty tricks to make money". Wow.
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker You said that Indian companies have improved a lot. Well, it's not called improving. It's called copying and still they can't even do that properly....They will take another 100 years (If at all) to even develop the supply chain and quality policies being followed by the German and Japanese Giants. |
What exactly do you mean by 'copying'? What are the companies copying? Design? Manufacturing practices? Technology? Because these aren't secrets any more. It's all out there, for sale if you have the money. You need a good design? You buy Pininfarina. You need a great SUV platform? Buy JLR and take theirs. You need an automatic transmission? Buy it from Aisin, or Punch powertrain. Process/supply chain optimisation? Pay world leading firms to analyse your process and optimise it. A 100 years? Try 10, or less. Toyota and Honda are just now launching Hybrids, while Tata has 3 EVs for sale, and Mahindra is about to launch theirs.
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker Foreign brands may be expensive (Due to taxes and duties) but give them the same concession and subsidies as Indian Brands, then let's see how they even survive. |
Go through our forums to learn a bit about MSIL's history in India and how they got the government itself to stifle other Indian competition in highly unethical ways, including blocking similar collaboration deals between Tata and Honda, and ensuring a monopoly.
Today, foriegn carmakers are already being offered the same concession and subsidies and incentives to make in India. And you are quite ill informed regarding the government support. Every official will travel in nothing less than an Innova Crysta, and governments are buying them in bulk. When they used to sell the Innova at sensible prices, even the states/police departments used to buy them. Let them develop a cost effective product for the high volume market to beat the Bolero, which should be a cakewalk for them considering their supply chain and quality policies and expertise. What's preventing them from "capitalising on Mahindra's succesful recipe?"
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker You need to get your hands dirty to find out the truth . From low quality bolts with snapped heads to paper thin materials, it's all in there for your to see and experience when you do your own work. Cheers! |
Since you've already gotten your hands dirty, post a pic. Factory leaks happen all the time. Why don't you post a pic to show the comparison between a TVS bolt on a Mahindra and a high quality japanese bolt, or maybe a pic of the paper thin material. You're opening up these cars all the time, I'm sure you have a couple of pics, go on, put them up.
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker How many factory recalls can you quote for Tata/Mahindra? |
You should really google "tata recall" or "mahindra recall" sometime. Might learn something.
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker We're talking about Tata/Mahindra here not Mercedes, Skoda etc. some of which have their origins dating back to the 1800s. |
Again, Google. Tata and Mercedes go a long way back. You do know that Tata was assembling Mercedes E-Class cars from CKDs way back in the 90s, right? And when you speak about German reliability, do browse through our "Imports gathering dust thread" and count the Germans you see there. Also do a small search for DQ200, which is almost a swear word in this forum.
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Originally Posted by The Rainmaker Also, I'm not even getting paid to steer potential consumers clear of these unethical brands. It's just that I feel if I can save someone from making a wrong choice, I've done my bit. |
Truly Ironic that you're calling Indian brands unethical, when the term dieselgate was coined for a german company, and it is a japanese firm that is dumping the most no of unsafe cars in Indian markets just because there is no crashworthiness program in place.