[turboturtle]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Actually, yes, it might.

..

And, bottom line is, none of what you say there is good reason to let the manufacturers off the hook.

+1 - Manufacturers shouldn't be given a free reign to do as they please. I almost always fallback on the same example, but over in the UK, even the base model of Swift comes with a pretty good safety kit. That's what we get to pay 30-50k extra for in India. Why? The regulations mandate it. If it wasn't mandated, even outside India, manufacturers would be selling the same (sub)standard stuff. I know this is a , but let me narrate a small incident.

A few years ago, a family close of ours had to go through the traumatic experience of losing their only son - his entire family (wife and a very young kid) was killed due to an unscientific road hump which was put up overnight (the big steep kind which come with no markers) and there was an idiot truck driver who tried to avoid it coming onto the lane my friend was driving on; if only airbags were present in his car, he might not have met his maker when he tried to avoid the truck and collided against trees / shops on the pavement. His wife and kid succumbed after battling for their lives in the hospital for a couple of days.

I cannot stress enough that the manufacturers should include safety kits in the cars they sell. Again, lot of my friends in this forum have repeatedly said that
1. it should be a personal choice to buy a vehicle which is not safe by paying a premium; let the vehicles be crash tested and their crash-worthiness be published - and the buyer makes an informed decision.
2. what's the use of having advanced safety features in a car if there is no driver awareness / infrastructure support (better roads)

On the personal choice, I think the GOI should do it's bit - after, only because it's mandated that most riders in Bangalore wear helmets (now, if you ask are they wearing ISI marked helmets and are they wearing it for the sake of safety, well, that's anybody's guess );
Yes, these are required. The GOI's regulation is by no means a Harry Potter's 'accio safety' summoning charm. This needs an overhaul of a lot of things which will take it's own sweet time, but, let's at-least make a start.

Sorry for the excessively long rant.

Cheers!
TurboTurtle

[royfernandez]

I have been reading all the post in this thread and almost all have been critical of the Manufacturers and not the Regulator which is the Govt.

I have a different take on this altogether to get these death cars once and all out of the way. Let the IRDA pay a key role by making Insurance Companies charge Car Insurance 500% more for anyone considering buying Swift or the Datsun GO. What would probably happen would be that the OTR prices for these 2 death cars would act as a deterrent to anyone buying them.

Even better would be if Car Insurance Companies DO NOT provide Insurance covers for all vehicles who fail the NCAP tests.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by royfernandez

I have been reading all the post in this thread and almost all have been critical of the Manufacturers and not the Regulator which is the Govt.

I have a different take on this altogether to get these death cars once and all out of the way. Let the IRDA pay a key role by making Insurance Companies charge Car Insurance 500% more for anyone considering buying Swift or the Datsun GO. What would probably happen would be that the OTR prices for these 2 death cars would act as a deterrent to anyone buying them.

Even better would be if Car Insurance Companies DO NOT provide Insurance covers for all vehicles who fail the NCAP tests.

Once a car is legally salable on the road - what you say is not a valid solution. If the sale is to be stopped - the car model should not be given a permit for sale & register by the RTOs. Not giving insurance after the car is legally registered is totally wrong IMO.

Neither is this needed. If the government / RTO wants - the car can be prohibited from being sold altogether. But the question is - whether that is really needed? We allow autorikshaws - one of the most dangerous vehicles ever - to carry millions of people everyday, that too 10 people at a time on occasions.

[arun_josie]

Originally Posted by venuvedam

Not sure if this is considered off topic, but did the NCAP test XUV500 anytime? What was the rating for XUV? Tried to google this but couldn't get a definitive answer.

Australasian New Car Assessment Program (ANCAP) has tested XUV500. But I think this is not an Indian version because as per the below report, the standard version comes up with side curtain airbags and ESC as well.

The all wheel drive variant of the XUV500 SUV by Mahindra has recorded a creditable 4 star result with side curtain airbags and Electronic Stability Control (ESC) as standard features.

http://www.globalncap.org/ancap-safe...-new-releases/

Here is the video footage of the testing,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=vgbqeNd0uVc

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by robimahanta

... I guess they believe people will pay 40-50k extra for a paint job but not for ABS/Airbags. Unfortunately, they are right as THEY feel a car even if its a tin can is still safer than a two wheeler for us.

Sadly, it is certainly true that Maruti know their market (obvious from their success) and will milk it for all that it is worth.

I'm very much aware that commercial entities are about profit, and they are certainly not charities, but surely there is an ethical or moral limit to milking the ignorance of the average customer?

Originally Posted by royfernandez

I have been reading all the post in this thread and almost all have been critical of the Manufacturers and not the Regulator which is the Govt.

Indeed. As per comment I just made about commercialism, it is only really law we can rely on to regulate it. But the industry, no doubt, has a powerful lobby system.

... ... ... Even better would be if Car Insurance Companies DO NOT provide Insurance covers for all vehicles who fail the NCAP tests.

Insurance is entirely cash driven. If a vehicle is costing them money in claims, then I guess the premiums for that business will rise. Otherwise, we cannot expect them to play the part that government should be playing. Insurers, too, are commercial entities. There are ethical sides to their business, but they cannot be expected to be ethical overlords to the manufacturers.

[ramzsys]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Sadly, it is certainly true that Maruti know their market (obvious from their success) and will milk it for all that it is worth.

I'm very much aware that commercial entities are about profit, and they are certainly not charities, but surely there is an ethical or moral limit to milking the ignorance of the average customer?

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ly-maruti.html

Squeezing the maximum from Indian operations so as to export the profits to the parent company- this is the cause of the reduced safety parameters of the Indian Swift.

[pratyush6]

Absolutely amazed at how can a person chairing such a responsible position in this country can have such a views and did not finch when he stated such opinions. It is obvious that he has ONLY (Maruti's) commercial interests in mind.

Yes, a car is more safer than a bike. But one should ask him, how many folks take their bikes on long trips with families? Utter nonsense by the man. I have no doubt if such people keep their positions the views get perpetrated right down to the lowest level.

Imagine a meeting Mr. Bhargava he has about increasing the sales of the *any* new car -
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maruti Chief (MC from now on) : Guys, we need to push harder for a bigger market share! (Thinking....Oh, I really need that enhanced performance bonus for the island I want to buy)

Someone else (SE from now on): Yes Sir, Yes Sir (...Wow, what a chance to make an impression...)

MC: Do you have any ideas?

SE: Sir, what about bringing a new version of (..the car..) (...Yeah, First Salvo)

MC: Yes, but that is a strategy we have used a lot of times - tell me something new (....Idiots, keep repeating the same thing....)

SE (wanting to impress): Sir, Indians are truly mad about mileage - we should build a new car with greater mileage (....That is evident, but why not take the chance..)

MC: But we already have that already - why reinvent the wheel ? (...Spend money on R&D - no way, idiots these guys...)

SE: Sir, why not, tune the existing car for greater mileage? (...Yeah, I have got this one...)

MC: Yes, that is a better idea and also advertise it to highlight some other new features like Bluetooth, new colors ... blah blah (..I have to teach them everything...)

SE: Sir, but it very difficult to better the current mileage and will take a lot of time (...How the hell am I supposed to do that....)

MC (now angrily) : Who the hell hired you? Don't you know weight is inversely proportional to mileage - decrease the weight increase the mileage. (....Stupid cow, does not know basic science....)

Everyone else (EE from now on): Yes Sir, Yes Sir, very well said (....There goes his promotion chances....)

SE : Sir what about safety? (...ok let me try to be reasonable...)

MC : Yes, what about it? (...is he stupid, let me show who is the boss...)

SE : Won't the safety be compromised? If we incorporate this design just for our market. (.. ok let me get this old hag back on track....)

MC : Don't you know, a car is so much safer than a bike? Who the hell hired this kid? Oh I see, you are the kid they hired from VW? No wonder you guys don't sell cars in India. (....Yeah, stupid fellow.. you think your MIT degree is of any use... stupid cow..)

(Everyone else laughing)

MC : I also think you guys should talk to the guys who design the decals - we need something that is hip and happening. Also, get me a proposal about bundling Audio Systems to mid variants - how much do we gain, as most people buy the mid variants? Some more ideas - Why not add Sun/Moon roof, leather seats, touch screen ICE and the other jazz - People who can spend so much on safety should be able to buy these as well. (..Why not - I still haven't figured out, why do people buy our cars... must work, we are Maruti...)

EE : What an idea Sirjee! (...and that guy is royally screwed and we save ourselves with so much work.. Thank God!...)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just something that popped up, I seriously hope it is not the real case. Indians are not stupid Sir.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
PS: Mods please delete it if it is inappropriate.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[PVPal]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

Maruti's chief's reaction:

"if carmakers incorporate such features in even entry-level cars, obviously the price would go up, which would lead consumers to opt for two-wheelers, which would be more unsafe"

"Going by current cost estimates, adding two front airbags to an entry-level and the country’s top-selling car like the Alto 800 would add about R30,000 to the starting price of R2.4 lakh. Further, adding an anti-lock braking system, which reduces braking distances especially in wet conditions, will further push the price up by about R10,000."

This reads like the response of a chief who took decisions, and is not liking the results of his decisions.

In any case, how does the Swift which is not an entry level car fit into what he is saying? It really does not, no matter how much he wants it to.

The Swifts structural instability is a testament to the bad decision that MSIL has made, and continues to defend.

One does not want to bash any brand, but such testimony does not leave room for avoiding an argument with MSIL.

[KEN-RAND]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Actually, yes, it might.

Your frustration is shared by many of us, but, in these circumstances, it is better to make the car itself as safe is as practical.
Yes, but this only works if they know how dangerous the vehicle they are driving is. And they don't --- or else they would be driving in the way that you suggest right now.

And, bottom line is, none of what you say there is good reason to let the manufacturers off the hook.

Use what you have already mirrors, seat belts, dont talk on the phone, belt up your kids etc etc THEN and only THEN ask about NCAP,ABS & airbags. You want other people to be held to account for drivers bad driving and last of all if cars, trucks and buses were maintained in a safe way then there would not be so many accidents in the first place. In UK a car fails its yearly MOT (after car 3 years old) for a leaking shock strut in India how many trucks and buses dont ever have them fitted on the rear, removed or just fallen off long ago!!
Lights well dont even go there, rear lights dont work and head lights full beam only even if dip works I want high beam and screw you if I blind you coming the other way.
I say again adding air bags, ABS & NCAP so what, change your driving for the better to increase your chance of seeing old age and you gran kids grow up.
I am not the best driver in the world but at 62 and I have had bikes and cars in Lagos (2 years), Bombay (7 years), Brazil(6 months), Mali (1year) Zaire (1 year), USA ( 1year), all over Europe and many other places and I have just completed a road trip right round Australia covering 28,200 km's (mid July to mid Oct 2014) and I am here to tell all about I must have done some thing right.
So yes campain for better cars but first drive as safe as you can with what you have.

Ken

[ajaypjayaraj]

Originally Posted by KEN-RAND

Use what you have already mirrors, seat belts, dont talk on the phone, belt up your kids etc etc THEN and only THEN ask about NCAP,ABS & airbags. You want other people to be held to account for drivers bad driving and last of all if cars, trucks and buses were maintained in a safe way then there would not be so many accidents in the first place. In UK a car fails its yearly MOT (after car 3 years old) for a leaking shock strut in India how many trucks and buses dont ever have them fitted on the rear, removed or just fallen off long ago!!
Lights well dont even go there, rear lights dont work and head lights full beam only even if dip works I want high beam and screw you if I blind you coming the other way.
I say again adding air bags, ABS & NCAP so what, change your driving for the better to increase your chance of seeing old age and you gran kids grow up.
I am not the best driver in the world but at 62 and I have had bikes and cars in Lagos (2 years), Bombay (7 years), Brazil(6 months), Mali (1year) Zaire (1 year), USA ( 1year), all over Europe and many other places and I have just completed a road trip right round Australia covering 28,200 km's (mid July to mid Oct 2014) and I am here to tell all about I must have done some thing right.
So yes campain for better cars but first drive as safe as you can with what you have.

Ken

You have mixed up 2 different problems related to road safety.
1) Responsibility of the maker to provide proper safety equipment.
2) Responsibility of the people to make use of the above and drive safe.

Though both are directly related to road safety, each have to be dealt with independently. You cannot let makers get away with such lame excuses by pointing fingers at bad drivers. Providing the safety kit is maker's responsibility and that cannot be conditional. Using it and driving safe is a different matter. Mixing up both problems will only be fuel for an endless argument. Waiting for our drivers to improve and letting car manufacturers get away till then is stupid. That is not a solution. And many of us have driven around the globe. I wonder how is that related to makers being irresponsible.

All your concerns about bad driving is already addressed by us in another thread which is to discuss about bad driving. Sadly it is true that most of the people don't make use of the safety features like seat belt. However there are many who do things responsibly too.

[KEN-RAND]

If you want a car with all the safety items then buy one with them as standard, my XUV W8 has six airbags but if you buy the cheaper W4 you only get 2 so is not as safe, who is to blame Mahindra or the customer who wants a cheaper XUV, if you want 6 buy the W6 or W8. You can get safer cars will all the equipment like airbags, abs etc etc but at a cost to you the buyer.
Bottom line dont buy cheap, buy safety!

Originally Posted by arun_josie

Australasian New Car Assessment Program (ANCAP) has tested XUV500. But I think this is not an Indian version because as per the below report, the standard version comes up with side curtain airbags and ESC as well.

http://www.globalncap.org/ancap-safe...-new-releases/

Here is the video footage of the testing,
https://www.Youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=vgbqeNd0uVc

I have the XUV W8 AWD and it has side curtain and seat airbags (6 in all) and ESC as standard so you are incorrect thinking the indian version is minus these items.

Ken

[hserus]

If they didn't include abs and airbags only on their top of the line model so you find yourself paying a few lakhs extra for bells and whistles like climate control and alloy wheels that have zero to do with safety, your logic would make rather more sense than it currently does.

Originally Posted by KEN-RAND

If you want a car with all the safety items then buy one with them as standard, my XUV W8 has six airbags but if you buy the cheaper W4 you only get 2 so is not as safe, who is to blame Mahindra or the customer who wants a cheaper XUV, if you want 6 buy the W6 or W8. You can get safer cars will all the equipment like airbags, abs etc etc but at a cost to you the buyer.
Bottom line dont buy cheap, buy safety!

Ken

[ajaypjayaraj]

Originally Posted by KEN-RAND

Bottom line dont buy cheap, buy safety!

Ken

Bottom line being that is the problem which is being extensively discussed. Safety is not to be part of luxury and must be provided atleast as an option across the range of models for that is a life saving aid. There should be some kind of governing over the pricing of these things too once they are made mandatory by regulatory bodies atleast as a customer option through out the model range. Safety kit along with the model one wants to buy would not be as expensive as a top end model which comes with all of the safety and luxury features together. So if one wants to get the safety kit and if he is willing to pay for it, he could get that without having to pay for the extra stuff which he is not interested in. Safety is NOT part of luxury could be the ideal bottom line.

[KEN-RAND]

So if you are saying "Safety is not to be part of luxury" fair enough, but what is the point of passive safety like airbags if you do not use the what is already supplied such as seat belts because you are to lazzy to put the thing on.

Seat belts work, Princess Dianna was killed because she was not using the belt in the back of the car the body gaurd sat in the front was wearing his and he lived driver killed no belt but had a air bag but she would have lived if she had used the seat belt.
Wear your belt back and front will save your life even without a airbag.

[rajneeesh]

In India even cars costing over a million rupees have no air bags. What RC Bhargava says has some logic ( cars being safer than 2 wheelers). However if I want to buy a Tata Storme with Airbags I will have to go in for the VX version which costs is 3-4 lakhs more than LX. If Toyota and VW can have airbags as standard fitment in Etios and Polo, why can't Tata motors equip cars like the Storme and Aria with airbags across variants.