Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

[aseem]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

I lived in Bangalore for 5 years, had a car for 3 years and every day I used to drive beyond 10 kmph; sometimes upto 80 kmph! Probably I was in a different part of Bangalore.

My regular timing was 40 mins for 19 odd kilometers which approximates 30 kmph average (Data for close to 1 year).

And there are NOT many people who can afford a car for just city drives @ 10 kmph; most of them also use it for journeys with much higher average speeds & top speeds too.

My Jetta doesn't lie. Waiting at stop lights peak hour traffic and tiny roads. I am glad car is averaging 11 km per hour.

[bblost]

Originally Posted by aseem

My Jetta doesn't lie. Waiting at stop lights peak hour traffic and tiny roads. I am glad car is averaging 11 km per hour.

Aseem, I am sorry but this is ridiculous.

Your average speed has very little to do with what your fastest and slowest speeds are.

For example:
20 km road.
You drive the first 15 kms at 100 kmph.
The last 5 kms in heavy bumper to bumper traffic moving at 10 kmph.

Will the average speed hence calculated be able to show the 15 kms at 100 kmph?

[aseem]

Originally Posted by bblost

Aseem, I am sorry but this is ridiculous.

Your average speed has very little to do with what your fastest and slowest speeds are.

For example:
20 km road.
You drive the first 15 kms at 100 kmph.
The last 5 kms in heavy bumper to bumper traffic moving at 10 kmph.

Will the average speed hence calculated be able to show the 15 kms at 100 kmph?

Did I say anywhere that i can't do 80 or 100 kmph. I just stated that the average speed in Bangalore is 10 kmph.

My argument is that in a country where still a majority is on 2 wheels, busses are not road worthy, roads themselves are not safe to drive on with stones pot holes and unmarked speed breakers in middle of nowhere. I will feel safe in a Swift.

[Carophilic]

Dear Readers,
Please do clear one misconception.The European Swift is no longer qualifying for 5 star as of 2014 rating system. This is because the norms are upgraded every year. The European Swift is now somewhere between 3-4 starts probably. In fact the way Euro NCAP is going, I don't think by 2015, we will have a single 5 star rated car on INDIAN ROADS even from the so called marquee brands.
BTW, hasn't VW come out smelling of roses after the GNCAP reports, even in this forum!!!I guess our fetish for Euro made stuff (me included) can overpower all logic. I know i am going to get a lot of brickbats for saying this. Suddenly Polo, Vento, Rapid are wonderfully engineered cars!!! They are good cars, no doubt but "wonderfully engineered"!!! Hmm, I will await the results of GNCAP's arm twisting till Indian regulations roll out.

[alavandar]

Originally Posted by S.MJet

Agree, this is what I wanted to say, of the two cars with similar structural integrity, heavier car is likely to be more safe.

Yes. You are absolutely right. Sufficient videos are available in youtube and other forums to prove this, where NCAP type collision tests between two equally star rated but different weight cars are shown.

[alavandar]

Originally Posted by S.MJet

Agree, this is what I wanted to say, of the two cars with similar structural integrity, heavier car is likely to be more safe.

Yes. You are absolutely right. Sufficient videos are available in youtube and other forums to prove this, where NCAP type collision tests between two equally star rated but different weight cars are shown.

[drsingh]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

I lived in Bangalore for 5 years, had a car for 3 years and every day I used to drive beyond 10 kmph; sometimes upto 80 kmph! Probably I was in a different part of Bangalore.

My regular timing was 40 mins for 19 odd kilometers which approximates 30 kmph average (Data for close to 1 year).

And there are NOT many people who can afford a car for just city drives @ 10 kmph; most of them also use it for journeys with much higher average speeds & top speeds too.

you have a fair point. The average speed for road transport in India is 40kmph. just for comparison in China it is 60kmph we are an 'emerging market' by western standards and we have a chaotic infrastructure/policy/poor drivers/bikes/rickshaws/cows/dogs/carts on our roads. like someone said above. its better for 3-4 people to be in a Datsun GO at 50-60kmph rather than be on a motorcycle at the same speeds. we are undergoing chaotic transformation as a country and banning products and forcing European standards on India is not the answer. I would rather Educate People on what happens to their cars when they crash at 40,50,60,70,80 kmph . they will lower their speeds if they are rational or buy a stronger car. But that is a mammoth task in India where you can get an International drivers license in 24 hrs no questions asked ! i regularly get bullied off the road by private bus operators driving the latest Mercedes/Volvo/Isuzu buses because of poor roads/regulations. "unsafe cars" are here to stay atleast till the next gen platforms are built by Indian companies and our Automotive manufacturing can supply cheaper ,reliable safety components. I read an article last year about the Indian Steel industry. The granddaddy of steel industry in India, Tata Steel, could not supply the kind of Steel Toyota wanted for the Innova's Roof and they were importing it from Malaysia/Thailand. The best outcome from this media coup by Global NCAP I hope for is that people with zero rated cars become more careful on the road.

[tbppjpr]

Friends, let's stop fighting. Our 'rulers' decided not to disappoint us so they are not going to impose any 'useful' crash tests for the cars sold in India.

Govt has decided to test the cars only at 56 km/hr, not at the speed of 64 km/hr where most of the cars failed to pass the tests. SIAM is opposing even this lowered down 56 km/hr speed and want the cars should be tested at only 24 km/hr.



http://auto.ndtv.com/news/new-cars-i...kmph-690066?fb

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by aseem

Did I say anywhere that i can't do 80 or 100 kmph. I just stated that the average speed in Bangalore is 10 kmph.

So you agree you do much higher speeds then what was/is your point?

Originally Posted by aseem

My argument is that in a country where still a majority is on 2 wheels, busses are not road worthy, roads themselves are not safe to drive on with stones pot holes and unmarked speed breakers in middle of nowhere. I will feel safe in a Swift.

What about the bus which jumps the median and crashes into you at 40 kmph because its brakes failed to work?
Your argument is flawed. The west must be paranoid idiots since their driving conditions are pretty much perfect and yet they drive safer cars. The 2 wheeler majority cannot afford a Swift while at the cost of a Swift there are better built safer cars out there. That logic fails too.
Its like saying I feel safe in TB when all others have cancer.

Originally Posted by drsingh

its better for 3-4 people to be in a Datsun GO at 50-60kmph rather than be on a motorcycle at the same speeds.

And how do you reach this conclusion unless the motorcycle being ridden ploughs straight into a wall? If it falls down vis a vis Datsun's crash with say another car at speed, I am pretty sure that people on the motorcycle will fare better since they have a 'run off' area so to speak.

[aseem]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

What about the bus which jumps the median and crashes into you at 40 kmph because its brakes failed to work?


Your argument is flawed. The west must be paranoid idiots since their driving conditions are pretty much perfect and yet they drive safer cars. The 2 wheeler majority cannot afford a Swift while at the cost of a Swift there are better built safer cars out there. That logic fails too.
Its like saying I feel safe in TB when all others have cancer.

Cost of life in West is more then cost of life here unfortunately however sad it's the truth. None of our factories regulations follow the same safety standards as US.

Leave that alone we even breath poorer polluted air have hardly any gardens or what not. You can't jog or cycle on roads without fear. Do I want more safety? Hell Yeah!

However that's just singling out one thing. Let's begin with roads, pollution, noise pollution, road worthiness of busses trailers, lane driving, speed limits, proper marked speed breakers. The thing is driving in India is not safe period!

Why single out cars probably our toothpaste too is not US grade and FDA would probably find it has toxins to make teeth white. So let's just accept the facts and not go gung ho over NCAP as this is the reality of the world we live in.

Imagine those traveling in Sumo or Nano. Imagine bike riders with family.

I would be considering myself lucky if I drive a Swift and just hope a XUV with an illegal bulguard doesn't bump into me.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by aseem

Cost of life in West is more then cost of life here unfortunately however sad it's the truth. None of our factories regulations follow the same safety standards.

Still does not make any sense. If you buy a safer car you are valuing your life not the government. Not all hatchbacks sold here have unstable structure. It is a free market, if you value your life buy a safer car.

Originally Posted by aseem

Leave that alone we even breath poorer polluted air have hardly any gardens or what not. Do I want more safety? He'll Yeah!

Polluted air kills you instantly? How is this even relevant to the discussion. There are infinite things out there that could kill you but how is it equate to buying an unsafe car? How do you determine where and when and what you will be killed by? Will it be a car accident or a snake bite?



Mod Note: Please be civil in your interactions with other members and avoid personal attacks.

[Hayek]

Originally Posted by Carophilic

Dear Readers,
Please do clear one misconception.The European Swift is no longer qualifying for 5 star as of 2014 rating system. This is because the norms are upgraded every year.

But that is the point. It is ridiculous that we still have legal cars with 35 year old designs like the Omni. I grew up in the era of Ambassadors (my dad had a Landmaster, since we could not afford an Ambassador), and found the Maruti 800 to be an ultra modern car. But that was over a quarter century ago. Technology moves ahead, and practices that were fine in the past are unacceptable today. Which is why the Datsun Go, and the Swift's results are shocking. They have deliberately engineered the car to be unsafe - it is not ignorance, it is a callous lack of concern for the lives of their customers. This is very similar to the example where GM (if I remember right) once chose not to recall an unsafe car because the probability weighted cost of compensation payments for the dead was less than that of a recall.

Originally Posted by aseem

Cost of life in West is more then cost of life here unfortunately however sad it's the truth. None of our factories regulations follow the same safety standards as US. Leave that alone we even breath poorer polluted air have hardly any gardens or what not. You can't jog or cycle on roads without fear. Do I want more safety? Hell

Why single out cars

I would be considering myself lucky if I drive a Swift and just hope a XUV with an illegal bulguard doesn't bump into me.

This is the attitude that needs to change. The life of an Indian is also precious. And comparing it with factory regulations is disingenuous. The number of people who die in automobile accidents each year is several times those that die in industrial accidents. Per Wikipedia, almost 250,000 Indians died in road accidents last year - that is 30x the official estimate (and 15x of the unofficial claims) of those who died due to the Bhopal gas disaster. I fully agree we need to enforce our traffic laws better to improve road safety - just this morning, I had an idiot taxi driver come the wrong way down MG Road in South Bombay as I was driving to Marine Drive for my jog. And as someone who cycles regularly in Bombay, I fully appreciate that there are several people who are worse off than car owners. But the incremental cost of producing materially safer cars is marginal, just about the cost of a halfway decent Android phone (and remember cars last 10-15 years vs 2 years for a phone). Also, please note that the Nano fared better in the GNCAP test than the Go, so there is no direct correlation between cost and safety.

Calling for immediate ban on grossly unsafe cars like the Omni, Go et al - and a mandating of Airbags within 6 months.

[drsingh]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

So you agree you do much higher speeds then what was/is your point?.
Its like saying I feel safe in TB when all others have cancer.


And how do you reach this conclusion unless the motorcycle being ridden ploughs straight into a wall? If it falls down vis a vis Datsun's crash with say another car at speed, I am pretty sure that people on the motorcycle will fare better since they have a 'run off' area so to speak.

The gist of my statement is to educate people about risks they take when they choose to travel on our roads using different modes of transport.So they can minimize the risk involved. Risk cannot be erased,but it can be managed. And in relation to the comment above about TB. It really is better than having cancer. TB is here to stay , and in more dangerous forms afflicting AIDS patients. You can take steps to minimize the risk of getting afflicted,but you can't remove the risk totally. That's the way it is for now.

[sadsack]

I resisted posting in this thread for a long time (it has now reached 31 pages) and I have also stopped reading most of the posts since they seem to say the same thing in many different ways. What has changed now? I read an article by Shubhabrata Marmar in the Overdrive magazine, where he stuck his neck out to say the most of the internet forums are places which simply spread information which is not accurate and thereby perpetuate myths that are the equivalents of urban legends. I also read an interview with Mr. C. V. Raman of Maruti Suzuki who had very interesting take on the NCAP. He hit the nail on the head when he said that the NCAP rating is mostly a marketing tool and that too in Europe. He went on to say that scoring a zero is not the equivalent of unsafe. He draws a parallel between fuel efficiency ratings and the NCAP crash test ratings.

If you want to rate cars on the basis of mileage then an agency may say that a car which consumes one litre of petrol for 16 kms is the base for the comparison and so that figure will be 0 stars and depending upon the calibration opted for by the agency stars will be allotted. It means that everything is on a relative scale whose base is chosen by the agency, which can sometimes be alright in one context but not alright in others. This point of C V Raman's is significant because it throws light on the way in which these agencies function. It is a bit like a two bit agency called Standard and Poor rating the economies of various different countries with A or B or C
grades. That these agencies can have malafides is adequately demonstrated by the tyrannical Max Mosley writing a letter to Carlos Ghosn asking that the Datsun Go be taken off the roads in India. Its like S & P telling India to withdraw subsidies on some products like fertilisers.

Coming back to Mr. Marmar's point about internet forums, I tend to agree with him. He was talking about how people who have never ridden a particular bike will generously part with opinions not just on that motorcycle but also on various different motorcycles available in the market. I know from experience on many forums, including this one, that opinions about the Tata Nano have been dished out by people whose only contact with the car was pictures on the internet. Nobody makes a sound when you hear that Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Audis have spontaneously combusted, because that is an exception whereas in the case of the Nano it is the rule. People mouth platitudes about safety based on some piece that they have read somewhere and when you see that a car made in India has been in accident people will wax eloquent about the lack of safety in Indian cars. I have seen and shown pictures of a BMW 3 series that was in an accident and broke into 3 pieces to my friends and nobody had anything to say other than that it may have been the driver's fault.

Before accepting the ratings of self created agencies such as the NCAP one should look at the accident figures and their causes and their consequences in different countries by taking into account road infrastructure, driving practices, rules awareness, the willingness to follow rules etc. You can see that this is a Herculean task and nobody will do it and it is here that agencies like the NCAP make a space for themselves and survive. Only today I saw piece on best Indian cities to live on Yahoo and this was done by some agency that applied scientific principles in giving ratings. In that Kolkata is top while Bangalore is bottom. Nobody gave the specifications used by the scientific principles. And incidentally science is not infallible. As Karl Popper said "something is true in science only till it is falsified and falsifiability is one of the primary attributes of science; otherwise it is no different from dogma, religion and the likes that do not tolerate discussions on the validity of things".

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by drsingh

The gist of my statement is to educate people about risks they take when they choose to travel on our roads using different modes of transport.So they can minimize the risk involved. Risk cannot be erased,but it can be managed.

And telling people that X car is unsafe compared to Y is not managing the risk? It is much better than letting the buyer buy an unsafe car because he does not know it and repent the circumstances. The two wheeler analogy works if somebody is graduating from a owning a two wheeler to a Nano because that it is all what he/she can afford but there is no reason why Maruti should build Swift the way they do. I would go as far as to say that it should come under manslaughter since they are deliberately making it unsafe.

Originally Posted by drsingh

And in relation to the comment above about TB. It really is better than having cancer. TB is here to stay , and in more dangerous forms afflicting AIDS patients. You can take steps to minimize the risk of getting afflicted,but you can't remove the risk totally. That's the way it is for now.

Fever or TB?