Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

[tbppjpr]

Originally Posted by senthildsk

The weight of the swift tested is mentioned as 1194 kgs. As far as i know, none of the swift variants on sale in India are that heavy. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Looks like the 1194 kg is the total weight of the car along with human-dummies inside. Forget Swift, none of the car in the segment has got that much of weight AFAIK.

Originally Posted by zenren

The way I see it, VW and Toyota just took it as a marketing opportunity. If they were genuinely concerned with the safety aspect, we would have seen ABS as standard on Polo or Etios, which is not the case. I don't have complaints about getting airbags or paying for the same, but I'm still in the same situation as before if ABS is available only in higher variant.

In my perspective, any manufacturer who says they are the new advocates for safety and would sell only variants with air bags but discard ABS even now are actually doing a desperate marketing gimmick to increase their sales numbers after all previous attempts have failed. It might still be a better situation than before for the consumers, but I don't respect anyone who does this with a different motive than what they proclaim.

Firstly its only Polo which is the only safe car proven so far in the mass segment hatchback segment in India.

Secondly its been a topic of debate since long if having ABS always adds into safety of a vehicle. There are some situations like mud or snow when ABS increases stopping distance drastically whereas one can manage to stop a non-ABS vehicle by applying bit of common sense.

"And in cases of limited traction such as snow, ice, and mud – ABS is actually detrimental to your safety, as it significantly (and needlessly) increases stopping distance. In snow or mud, a locked up wheel will dig into the snow – and provide considerable stopping power. If ABS prevents the wheel from locking in this case, almost no braking will occur." : Source

Either there should be a switch to turn off the ABS or there should be option of choosing a variant which doesn't come with ABS. VW is offering ABS in two variants of Polo and only one is left without ABS for those who don't need/want it. IMO ABS is way much more useful in two wheelers than the four wheelers.

But why arguing, this is not a topic of debate, These are secondary safety feature which just increase safety only if primary safety features of a car are effective enough.

We are rather getting worried that the cars we are getting here are built on compromised structures/chassis/platforms compared to their international versions.

[senthildsk]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

Looks like the 1194 kg is the total weight of the car along with human-dummies inside. Forget Swift, none of the car in the segment has got that much of weight AFAIK.

Yep, you are right. They have indeed mentioned "crash test weight". I'm also one of those thousands who bought swift ZXI assuming much better safety. But i did have my doubts.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

Looks like the 1194 kg is the total weight of the car along with human-dummies inside. Forget Swift, none of the car in the segment has got that much of weight AFAIK.

Correction - there is one. The Punto Evo 90hp has a kerb weight of 1198kg.

[akj123]

Originally Posted by senthildsk

Yep, you are right. They have indeed mentioned "crash test weight". I'm also one of those thousands who bought swift ZXI assuming much better safety. But i did have my doubts.

Now we need a mass Swift exchange with Polo/Punto program

Opportunity for VW ?

[alavandar]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

Looks like the 1194 kg is the total weight of the car along with human-dummies inside. Forget Swift, none of the car in the segment has got that much of weight AFAIK.

Originally Posted by senthildsk

Yep, you are right. They have indeed mentioned "crash test weight". I'm also one of those thousands who bought swift ZXI assuming much better safety. But i did have my doubts.

The crash test weight not only includes the weight of dummies (front=two) rear (one in child crab) but also some miscellaneous equipment in the boot.

Kerb weight of Punto is 1144 kg.( Kerb weight (UK English) or unladen mass is the total weight of a vehicle with standard equipment, all necessary operating consumables (e.g., motor oil and coolant), a full tank of fuel, while not loaded with either passengers or cargo.) Against this, the Swift DZire kerb weight is only 1080 kg. Etios is 900 to 950 kg.
Most important is, Punto has the metallic bumper under the decorative plastic top cover, which we generally mistake for the bumper. Swift (Indian) does not have this metal bumper. In its place two teeny weeny thin pipes are provided, that too are meant to support the equipment weight and not for absorbing any impact.

[alavandar]

Originally Posted by akj123

Now we need a mass Swift exchange with Polo/Punto program

Opportunity for VW ?

But you cannot change our perception so easily. A big seller like MSIL will do everything to undermine the efficacy of the NCAP tests. Or come up with a half hearted minor modification to keep people in their comfort zone.

[zenren]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

"And in cases of limited traction such as snow, ice, and mud – ABS is actually detrimental to your safety, as it significantly (and needlessly) increases stopping distance. In snow or mud, a locked up wheel will dig into the snow – and provide considerable stopping power. If ABS prevents the wheel from locking in this case, almost no braking will occur." : Source

Either there should be a switch to turn off the ABS or there should be option of choosing a variant which doesn't come with ABS. VW is offering ABS in two variants of Polo and only one is left without ABS for those who don't need/want it. IMO ABS is way much more useful in two wheelers than the four wheelers.

But why arguing, this is not a topic of debate, These are secondary safety feature which just increase safety only if primary safety features of a car are effective enough.

We are rather getting worried that the cars we are getting here are built on compromised structures/chassis/platforms compared to their international versions.

Since when did airbags (something that helps in the event of a crash) become a more critical safety feature than ABS which is a feature that actually help in preventing the crash in the first place?

If ABS is as much a safety hazard as you claim with all these sources, then why is VW offering these in the higher variants?

Just because a car has airbags doesn't mean a crash is a good thing. If there is any opportunity of preventing that crash in the first place, that should be the first priority.

[akj123]

Originally Posted by alavandar

But you cannot change our perception so easily. A big seller like MSIL will do everything to undermine the efficacy of the NCAP tests. Or come up with a half hearted minor modification to keep people in their comfort zone.

Yes of course. Already their VP of mktg has dismissed the NCAP results, saying the tests MSIL does is "good enough" as per ARAI and indian conditions.

Sure, there are a bunch of disappointed/agitated people here, but I am really not sure what can be done next apart from ranting. Perhaps write to MSIL, but who knows if they will care about a few "enthusiasts" complaining about some safety feature. Sales will likely not be affected by this news, even though it did play out on Zee News and NDTV.

I do hope though that VW or Fiat do some advtg around this theme. Atleast get some more awareness out there, and if in the process it improves their sales, great!

I am personally not sure what should I do - sell the swift and buy a safer car ? For starters, that's a solid expense. Secondly, even the Polo here gets 4*, while the european one gets 5* - which means they probably have more airbags or other delta. So does it make sense to do this change now, or, wait for couple of years for models with better safety features.

The only obvious actionable item for me is that I should use Swift only within city, and for trips outside rent a Vento etc from ZoomCar!

[commonman]

Originally Posted by akj123

Now we need a mass Swift exchange with Polo/Punto program

Opportunity for VW ?

Tried doing that with Polo. Base polo is having a waiting period of 6 to 8 months. The news is working. No offers and no discounts on Polo. Almost same with Punto too.
Sometimes we need to look things from a different view point ,to see things differently.
Customers are the real losers. Companies will make money ,let it be Maruti or Volkswagen ,with ABS,Airbags ,EBD or nothing.
What is the structural integrity rating for Polo? They put Airbags just to get the 3 star rating ,which Maruti would also get if they (NCAP) would have tested with Swift ZXI model.

Something fishy about all these tests and reports.

I checked for testing ,for Maruti Ritz on the NCAP website .It is never tested in Ritz Avatar.The splash (European version) model had got good review. With ABS , 2 Airbags and 30,000 discount , Ritz ZXi makes a VFM purchase in the current scenario.

So what should Maruti do now ? To keep it simple,promote Ritz for the next 2 to 3 months ,till all this negative publicity dies down.

This is just a scenario of marketing ,that got floated in my brain.
I am not taking sides with any manufacturer ,as they take Indians, for granted.

[alavandar]

Originally Posted by akj123

I do hope though that VW or Fiat do some advtg around this theme. Atleast get some more awareness out there, and if in the process it improves their sales, great!
I am personally not sure what should I do - sell the swift and buy a safer car ? For starters, that's a solid expense. Secondly, even the Polo here gets 4*, while the european one gets 5* - which means they probably have more airbags or other delta. So does it make sense to do this change now, or, wait for couple of years for models with better safety features.
The only obvious actionable item for me is that I should use Swift only within city, and for trips outside rent a Vento etc from ZoomCar!

1. I am a Fiat fan and Fiat is a gone case as far as marketing their product is concerned.
2. For Swift fans, who own one, there is no need for any panic reaction. As far as we know the limitation of our vehicle and drive it within the safe envelope (considering traffic condition, dead stop distance, road condition (dry/wet), day/night drive and how mad or sane the other road users at that point of time), there is no problem. This is easier said than done.
3. My approach would be, try and sell and buy a safer car, in due course. Keep using the Swift for long drives also but do not be swift with that!!

[tbppjpr]

Originally Posted by zenren

Since when did airbags (something that helps in the event of a crash) become a more critical safety feature than ABS which is a feature that actually help in preventing the crash in the first place?

If ABS is as much a safety hazard as you claim with all these sources, then why is VW offering these in the higher variants?

You are really not trying to get it my friend. First, its not my claim, it has been a topic of debate since long. Honestly, I have also been confused if ABS should be taken or not. ABS is not some magical features, it comes with it's own negatives.

If I am to choose from few of the safety features then I would prefer to have features like stability controls over ABS. If it has to be ABS then which type of ABS with how many channels? At what speed ABS should kick in? And is there EBD available along with ABS?

If there is apprehension against Euro car makers and getting the safety 'features' is top priority for someone instead of getting a safer and sturdier car as a package then get a Swift or Etios.

Secondary safety features can't be substitute of a safe structure in first place, they can only enhance the safety of occupants only if the structure itself is well built.

Just because a car has airbags doesn't mean a crash is a good thing. If there is any opportunity of preventing that crash in the first place, that should be the first priority.

Answer is don't drive or travel on roads.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Correction - there is one. The Punto Evo 90hp has a kerb weight of 1198kg.

But its 1144kg mentioned on Fiat India website for the Punto Evo Sport 93ps MJD variant, am I missing something?

[akj123]

Originally Posted by commonman

Tried doing that with Polo.

Sometimes we need to look things from a different view point ,to see things differently.

Customers are the real losers. Companies will make money ,let it be Maruti or Volkswagen ,with ABS,Airbags ,EBD or nothing.

What is the structural integrity rating for Polo? They put Airbags just to get the 3 star rating ,which Maruti would also get if they (NCAP) would have tested with Swift ZXI model.

Yes of course, end only consumers are losers. India is still a growth market and MSIL etc can keep growing even by completely ignoring these "enthusiast" concerns.

Polo and Figo actually scored well on the structure (marked as "stable"). The Polo version with zero airbags gets 0*, while the version with two airbags got the 4* rating.
http://www.globalncap.org/volkswagen...r-star-rating/

The i10/Swift/Datsun Go all got "unstable" for the structure, with NCAP saying for Datsun that there is no point in even trying to add airbags to it. This shows to me that both the structure and airbags are important for passenger safety!
http://www.globalncap.org/global-nca...-of-datsun-go/

[iamswift]

Originally Posted by zenren

Since when did airbags (something that helps in the event of a crash) become a more critical safety feature than ABS which is a feature that actually help in preventing the crash in the first place?

As @tbppjpr said, its quite debatable ABS is panacea. It might be handy in some situations.
Assuming if we prevent 60% of accidents by ABS, there is still 40% chance of crashing. Airbags comes in here which might push up the percentage of safely walking out alive from an accident to 90%. Airbags are critical indeed.

[alavandar]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

You are really not trying to get it my friend. First, its not my claim, it has been a topic of debate since long. Honestly, I have also been confused if ABS should be taken or not. ABS is not some magical features, it comes with it's own negatives.
.

1. In my opinion, ABS is a must have and it definitely keeps the car on course during crash stops. I have driven cars with/ without ABS and you can make out the difference when I had to crash stop, especially on wet roads.
2. The article where it states ABS can be dangerous (increased stopping distance) is only for snow covered roads and is largely not applicable for our roads.

[shashank.nk]

Originally Posted by RSR

The official Swift ZXi report has now been published by Latin-NCAP. It's the same test performed much earlier by Global-NCAP, which was covered in detail by Siddharth Vinayak Patankar.

Thank you for posting this report. Just like to add that the Zxi gets more reinforcements than the Zdi behind the plastic bumper at front. I've read somewhere on the forum that diesel variants don't get the additional beam to make way for either the intercooler or radiator. I wonder how this absence, may impact safety ratings or if they do at all.