[zenren]

Originally Posted by svsantosh

I cannot imagine how a datsun will even fare in a real Indian accident, typical 80-100Kmph, on highway, slam behing a truck with no rear crash bar! Yikes!

Irrespective of how Datsun performs in such a case, the company would have blamed the trucks in our country for the absence of under-run protection bar for any casualities from the accident and defended themselves.

Originally Posted by sharadmumbai

My 2 cents on incremental cost of airbags: today a 7 year SBI car loan EMI is 1673 per lakh. For 50k etc for airbags, it will be approx 850 Rs per month.

That is the argument most dealers use to push a potential customers from base variant to mid variant listing all the extra things they get for a few hundred bucks.

I respect Volkswagen that they took a stand with the Polo by offering it only with airbags.

The way I see it, VW and Toyota just took it as a marketing opportunity. If they were genuinely concerned with the safety aspect, we would have seen ABS as standard on Polo or Etios, which is not the case. I don't have complaints about getting airbags or paying for the same, but I'm still in the same situation as before if ABS is available only in higher variant.

In my perspective, any manufacturer who says they are the new advocates for safety and would sell only variants with air bags but discard ABS even now are actually doing a desperate marketing gimmick to increase their sales numbers after all previous attempts have failed. It might still be a better situation than before for the consumers, but I don't respect anyone who does this with a different motive than what they proclaim.

In the interest of the greater good, it is better we don't expose these ploy from anyone so that the criticism against the leaders continue and they are forced to transform their lineup to better quality and safety standards.

[Yeldo]

Originally Posted by zenren

The way I see it, VW and Toyota just took it as a marketing opportunity. .... I don't have complaints about getting airbags or paying for the same, ........

..............It might still be a better situation than before for the consumers,

Exactly my line of thought.

VW/ Toyota might have took this as a marketing opportunity, but they have at least provided dual airbags and they have every right to leverage it.

Airbags, increased crash-worthiness, ABS, whatever enhanced safety feature is given by ANY manufacturer, the buyer benefits.

But it remains that the Government needs to act decisively and enact a comprehensive passenger vehicle- and pedestrian- safety legislation.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Cars in India do not need to be fitted with safety devices: walls, trees, broken-down trucks* do. Read the accident thread: it is always the tree, the wall, or the truck to blame, never the car driver.


**ok yes, the trucks do.

[akj123]

Originally Posted by Hayek

That's also the issue I have with Maruti. By taking structural members OUT from the Swift, they are letting their customers down. In some senses it is worse than what Nissan has done. People who buy a Swift or Corolla or Accord in India reasonably expect it to be the same product as the one sold globally - with missing features appearing (or not appearing) on the brochure. Making a product that has been deliberately engineered to be less safe in a manner that a customer can't detect, and selling it under a global brand name is betraying the customer. Certainly a fit case for someone to file a complaint with the CCI in my view.

Thanks for writing it so eloquently - this is *exactly* how I feel right now. I looked at the Euro NCAP rating and assumed our swift will be bit worse off (lesser airbags), but I didnt expect to buy a "structurally unstable" car. What is the point of adding airbags/ABS etc and advertising these safety features in this kind of a car. Now I am feeling conned!

To add to that, VP saheb makes some smart comment about indian and foreign standards. The cars are tested at 64km/hr, that's not so high (except for bangalore roads). People definitely drive at those speeds on highways - even the airport road has speed limit of 80km/hr.

Now my simple question is this - if my focus is safety, what are the options ? Should I buy only one of Vento/Polo/Rapid/Fiat ? I saw another article on Ford having strengthened ecosport structure to sell it in Europe, so no longer sure how different even the german/fiat cars are!

[audioholic]

I am very keen to know how manufactures address this issue. I am not specific to Maruti since there are other cars too that have been condemned for not being safe. Will the heads at Maruti at least do something and pave the path for other manufacturers? I wish so. If not, there is no point in buying a car from them.

Speaking about reforms, the main problem in our country is modernization hasn't been uniform. Cars are getting modernized at a fast pace, roads aren't. Technology is being modernized overnight, education isn't. Traffic is getting faster, but drivers aren't getting sensible. Restaurants are becoming swanky and clean, but the waste they throw still lands up in a crude disposal process. Hence, if at all anything should be changed, its the people and their mindset. That's the solution for most of the issues.

If the people decide to buy a car based on safety and safety features, will a manufacturer have a say? NO.
If people decide to drive sensibly and follow traffic rules, will they require to be forced to do the same by heavy fines and enforcement? NO.
Its a democracy, so everything's in the hands of people. Rest is just on paper. Just like how the indian crash regulations are a bunch of joke, many things exist here just for the sake of it.

Will adopting the strictest safety regulations be the solution for avoiding accidents? NO. Because:
1. Some accidents happen only in India, in the wierdest ways. No crash test can simulate how randomly things screw up on our roads. Example in consideration is a person who was killed in his Mercedes because the car ran under a truck. Now what crash test simulated this in which country? Nothing helped him when the A Pillar was wedged and it punctured his body.

2. Cost factor plays a major role here. A car with airbags meets an accident and the airbags deploy. The owner will be a non team-bhpian with no idea of safety features. He is given a fat estimate at the ASC. A local garage offers to do the same job in a fraction of the cost. They never replace the airbags, convincing owner that its unnecessary. This episode happens in most of the local garages. Now, who should be blamed for this? Owner, manufacturer or mechanic? So even if airbags deployed, they wont replace it .

Hence, we should educate people about various aspects. That's when manufacturers will learn a lesson or two. Else, no amount of safety regulations is going to work here unless the people should go by it.

[for_cars1]

Originally Posted by saket77

the law will not hold good if the speeds & weights of the cars involving in such a crash are different.

During a head-on collision, it is the momentum (Mass*Velocity) that gets transferred between the cars. The larger vehicle has more momentum assuming both are doing the same speeds and consequently will push back the smaller(lighter) car harder.

The following video link demonstrates what happens when cars of different size and weights collide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExQUGk12S8U

Originally Posted by S.MJet

.... heavier car will be safer than a lighter one irrespective of the segment.

Again, this depends on how well engineered is the heavier car. A heavy car with a weak structure/frame will result in its passenger cage getting crushed by the smaller(read lighter) but stronger small car and harming the passengers in the "heavy" car.
The following video link demonstrates what happens when a heavier "weak structure" car collides with a lighter but "strong structure well engineered" car

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBDyeWofcLY

Its high time manufacturers provide Indian consumers with strong frame/structure cars padded with adequate crumple zones and well designed to direct/dissipate the impact forces away from the passenger cage. A heavier, bigger and well engineered car will be always safer.
Passenger cage deformation and footwell intrusion at 64kmph tests as observed in the latest Swift and Datsun Go tests are totally unacceptable.

[Ricci]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

Sometimes I laugh when people give funny logics behind choosing Maruti like reliability, cheap running cost, FE etc etc, in reality none of the logic is true. Rather Maruti service stations do very unprofessional kind of job while servicing vehicles.

It looks like herd mentality, but there is a monetary reason too. People like to buy cars that are popular because it proves they're not lemons, will have spares easily and cheaply available, lot of mechanics who know how to fix them, and very important - resale value will be relatively high.

Shows how optimistic(?) people are - they're not thinking what if I have an accident in this car , they're thinking how much will I get if I sell this car after x years.

[RSR]

The official Swift ZXi report has now been published by Latin-NCAP. It's the same test performed much earlier by Global-NCAP, which was covered in detail by Siddharth Vinayak Patankar.

This Swift petrol with 2 airbags scores 3* for adult occupants (and 1* for child occupants) on the Latin-NCAP (basically the same standard as Global-NCAP). The model tested was a made-in-India petrol RHD version, or the Swift ZXi on sale in India. The bodyshell was rated as unstable, but the presence of 2 airbags has helped the ZXi score 3-stars, as those life-saving airbags helped to minimise the injuries sustained by the dummies in the 64 kmph impact. Here is the video:

http://youtu.be/hWUfSrbKDys

The official report of the test is available here:

http://www.latinncap.com/data/pdf/su...airbags_en.pdf

This should be so obvious to Maruti Suzuki by now. Scoring 3-stars on the Latin/Global NCAP is not a pathetic result at all, even if the cabin structure was rated as unstable after the test, and even if a direct competitor (Volkswagen Polo) scored 4-stars with a stable cabin.

What is bad is their attitude in being adamant and trying to justify the pathetic 0* performance of the Swift LXi in the same test, instead of providing 2 airbags on the L_i (+) and V_i variants as well.

All they need to do is ask their executives to stop making those outrageous statements, and instead issue a simple note that from this moment, 2 airbags would be a standard feature on all Swifts manufactured in India. This would immediately make the Indian Swift a 3* car instead of the 0* failure it is right now in the minds of the informed folks.

This is exactly what Volkswagen did with the Polo as a reaction to their premium hatchback without airbags scoring a zero on G-NCAP. Toyota also followed VW by (pre-emptively?) making 2 airbags a standard feature on the recently face-lifted Indian Etios twins. Even if it is a shrewd marketing move, both those companies deserve a pat on the back for doing what they did.

What's preventing companies like Maruti Suzuki (and Hyundai, Ford, Honda, Chevrolet etc.) from doing the same? If these companies don't follow what Volkswagen and Toyota have done (at least for their cars in the B-segment and above), then they deserve every bit of the bashing they get from members here!

[rranjith_kum]

I came across a very interesting poll in one of the newspaper's webpage. I have posted the screenshot.



If the same question was to be asked here I am curious to know your answers.
In my opinion I think GlobalNCAP as an organisation promotes road safety. As a research institute they conduct crash tests and rate the performance of the vehicle. For very obvious reasons they tested a car, they gave their ratings and also comments about it. So this way I dont feel that Global NCAP went overabound in asking Datsun Go to be withdrawn from India.

I see this as a social pressure on Datsun/Renault/Nissan. I am just curious to know how they are going to react to this. They have Datsun Go+ in their pipeline.

1. Would they be really getting back to their drawing boards and start their redesigning work ?
2. Are they going to continue selling it because as per the law there is no restriction. A new law is definitely not going to come into action on Monday.

If they are going to redesign the vehicle's structure, this might involve lot of development costs, tooling costs and material costs. I see that there might be need to use higher and stiffer grades of steel esp. in A pillar sections. Datsun Go+ would be the worst case here. If I were to get to my drawing board then I would make sure that the structure works out for a 7 seater Datsun Go+. With more weight Datsun Go+ would need more energy absorbing deformable zones in the front and stiffer structures around the cabin. I would be carrying over the same parts for my smaller Datsun Go. But then since the Brand failed to do this in the beginning I am very very eager to see how they are going to react now.

Comments and opinions please

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by rranjith_kum

So this way I dont feel that Global NCAP went overabound in asking Datsun Go to be withdrawn from India.

I would have preferred them to test the models from all major manufacturers before coming up with such a recommendation against Renault-Nissan. Really curios how the big names like Toyota and Honda would fare in this regard- with their Brio and Liva models. That would have made for an even playing ground.

Anyways, it's a welcome step and I hope things get a lot better when the BNVSAP gets implemented by 2017.

[atlantis0965]

Originally Posted by rranjith_kum

I came across a very interesting poll in one of the newspaper's webpage. I have posted the screenshot.

Attachment 1306697

If the same question was to be asked here I am curious to know your answers.
In my opinion I think GlobalNCAP as an organisation promotes road safety. As a research institute they conduct crash tests and rate the performance of the vehicle. For very obvious reasons they tested a car, they gave their ratings and also comments about it. So this way I dont feel that Global NCAP went overabound in asking Datsun Go to be withdrawn from India.

I see this as a social pressure on Datsun/Renault/Nissan. I am just curious to know how they are going to react to this. They have Datsun Go+ in their pipeline.

1. Would they be really getting back to their drawing boards and start their redesigning work ?
2. Are they going to continue selling it because as per the law there is no restriction. A new law is definitely not going to come into action on Monday.

If they are going to redesign the vehicle's structure, this might involve lot of development costs, tooling costs and material costs. I see that there might be need to use higher and stiffer grades of steel esp. in A pillar sections. Datsun Go+ would be the worst case here. If I were to get to my drawing board then I would make sure that the structure works out for a 7 seater Datsun Go+. With more weight Datsun Go+ would need more energy absorbing deformable zones in the front and stiffer structures around the cabin. I would be carrying over the same parts for my smaller Datsun Go. But then since the Brand failed to do this in the beginning I am very very eager to see how they are going to react now.

Comments and opinions please

hi
Well the screen shot sure seems to reflect the opinion of the average buyer in India.Please note i am using the term “buyer” here and not “car buyer” because no matter what the product is or who the manufacturer is products which “look” good and comes “cheap” will always sell more.

Personally I think they have done the decent thing. The motives might be many but the intent is definitely correct. They are doing something which our transportation authorities ( the numerous ones which we have) are not willing to do or just incompetent to do.

Safety is a culture ; The term “ safety first safety always “ is something which many of my fellow seafarers all over the world would identify with.
Unfortunately it is not a part of the numerous diverse cultures which make up our great country.

Just to pose a few questions on this forum where we have some of the most knowledgeable car buyers in India; How many of us really thought about the safety features of a car before buying one ?
I keep reading on the previous posts about how VW and Toyota will market their products using this opportunity; why not? And I am sure many VW owners will agree here that the salesperson in a VW showroom always touches upon the topics of the heavier doors/panels and laser welded seams.So I guess they have being trying to do their bit for the safety of the car owner and passengers for sometime now or ever since . (I am not sure here though how many other manufacturers do the same.)
All said and done ; its up to each and every individual as to how safe or comfortable or flashy he/she wants to be and it’s their choice.
As for the car manufacturers; they are here to do business and not charity. You can as a consumer demand everything but then everything comes at a price which people choose to pay either the car manufacturer or a hospital or god forbid pass on the payments to their legal heirs.


Sorry if the post is more of a rant !

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by atlantis0965

Safety is a culture

The most brilliant and simplest explanation of all that's happening. Safety is a culture indeed, but thankfully it is also something that a culture can adopt over time. Enforcement of rules would help for sure.

[alavandar]

Originally Posted by Yeldo

Let me ask a doubt (don't know if it has been discussed earlier):

Were the technical representatives of these manufacturers present during testing?

Since vehicles from competing manufacturers were tested by a body with no actual legal authority (unlike ARAI which is accountable to the public), were the technical representatives of the competitors allowed to observe these tests to see if the cars were tweaked?

Global NCAP (New Car Assessment Programme) is an umbrella of voluntary consumer vehicle testing organisations. Its member organisations are Latin NCAP (Latin America and Caribbian), KNCAP (Korean), Euro NCAP (European), IIHS (Insurance Institute of Highway Safety) (US), CNCAP (China), JNCAP (Japan), ANCAP (Aus-NZ), US NCAP (United States), ASEAN NCAP (Malaysia),

Out of these, the KNCAP (founded 1999), Euro NCAP (1997), JNCAP, US NCAP (1978) all have backing/support of the respective government's road safty/ other departments. IIHS is backed by the American insurance companies. The European New Car Assessment Programme (Euro NCAP) is a European car safety performance assessment programme based in Brussels (Belgium) and founded in 1997 by the Transport Research Laboratory for the UK Department for Transport and backed by several European governments, as well as by the European Union. ASEAN NCAP is the joint initiative of MIROS (Malaysian Institute of Road Safety) and Clobal NCAP, formed in December 2011 to mark a new milestone of vehicle safety for the region in response to the United Nations’ Decade of Action for Road Safety 2011-2020. China NCAP is a voluntary organisation (2006).

Test procedures and standards are similar in all NCAPs, except that in China it follows the legally set standards.

In Europe too, NCAP Testing is not mandatory, with vehicle models either being independently chosen by Euro NCAP or voluntarily tested by the manufacturers. In Europe, new cars are certified as legal for sale under the Whole Vehicle Type Approval regimen that differs from Euro NCAP. According to Euro NCAP, "The frontal and side impact crash tests used by Euro NCAP are based on those used in European legislation. However, much higher performance requirements are used by Euro NCAP. The frontal impact speed used by Euro NCAP is 64 km/h compared 56 km/h for legislation." Euro NCAP also states that "Legislation sets a minimum compulsory standard whilst Euro NCAP is concerned with best possible current practice. Progress with vehicle safety legislation can be slow, particularly as all EU Member States’ views have to be taken into account. Also, once in place, legislation provides no further incentive to improve, whereas Euro NCAP provides a continuing incentive by regularly enhancing its assessment procedures to stimulate further improvements in vehicle safety."

In all these countries, whether backed by legal frame work or not, by all car manufacturers, and consumers, the NCAP assessment/test reports are taken seriously. No car maker, including notorious Chinese copy cats try to phoo phoo the results like it is being done in India by Maruti Suzuki. What Maruti tries is to make it look as if the NCAP is an irrelevant organisation and its results are irrelevant.

India is a late starter in this initiative (in fact we are yet to start).

For more reference, please follow the links:-

http://www.globalncap.org/

and in that link, drop down menu, NCAP Programmes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_NCAP

[akj123]

Originally Posted by RSR

[i]

This Swift petrol with 2 airbags scores 3* for adult occupants (and 1* for child occupants) on the Latin-NCAP (basically the same standard as Global-NCAP). The model tested was a made-in-India petrol RHD version, or the Swift ZXi on sale in India.

Thanks for the link. Couple of qs come to mind:

(1) This is made-in-India, but how do we know it's the same car which is sold to consumers here ? It could be possible that the cars sold here, and the ones built for export have some differences.

(2) The pdf report states "The bodyshell was rated as unstable" That doesn't inspire much confidence :(

[senthildsk]

Originally Posted by RSR

The official Swift ZXi report has now been published by Latin-NCAP. It's the same test performed much earlier by Global-NCAP, which was covered in detail by Siddharth Vinayak Patankar.

This Swift petrol with 2 airbags scores 3* for adult occupants (and 1* for child occupants) on the Latin-NCAP (basically the same standard as Global-NCAP). The model tested was a made-in-India petrol RHD version, or the Swift ZXi on sale in India. The bodyshell was rated as unstable, but the presence of 2 airbags has helped the ZXi score 3-stars, as those life-saving airbags helped to minimise the injuries sustained by the dummies in the 64 kmph impact. Here is the video:

http://Youtu.be/hWUfSrbKDys

Attachment 1306693

The official report of the test is available here:

http://www.latinncap.com/data/pdf/su...airbags_en.pdf

The weight of the swift tested is mentioned as 1194 kgs. As far as i know, none of the swift variants on sale in India are that heavy. Please correct me if i'm wrong.