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Old 11th January 2018, 15:40   #721
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Interesting perspectives.

I am not a primarily residential architect because the amount of effort required in a house is never proportionate to the fee. A house is actually the most difficult building type to execute and have satisfied clients. However, it is interesting to note the discussion regarding fees.

3% is low, considering that a house costing one crore gives you three lakhs in fee out of which the structural, plumbing, electrical consultants need to be paid and there will be at least twenty site visits of half a day duration each without including the design meetings. However, there is a demand / supply scenario as well as reduction in the amount of services one provides.

While RaguHolla has given some figures, I have the following pointers:

Conventional RCC structure should cost around 1500-1700 / sq ft with brickwork. AAC blocks could be cheaper.

Basement structure will cost 1.5 times of that over the area of the basement.

MEP (Mechanical, Electrical & Data, Plumbing, Home Automation etc) can cost anything between Rs 800/- to Rs 1500/- per square foot.

Finishing, Doors and Windows will take up another Rs 1000 per sq foot.

So, we reach a figure of about Rs 3,300 per sq ft.

Now, many people hear these figures and say I am wrong. When the work gets done, they never tell me what it actually cost them. In reality, most people do not complete a house for less than Rs 3000 per sq ft but will boast an unrealistic figure to their friends.

Lastly, never negotiate a lump sum contract with the builder / contractor. Negotiate an item rate contract.

Keep aside 10% of money for administrative costs: corporation fees, prasadam to various authorities who knock at your doorstep showing you violations that you may or may not have committed, watch and ward at site, architect's fee, bill checking fee (usually 0.5 to 1% of project costs, etc.)
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Old 11th January 2018, 23:20   #722
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Has anyone considered going for alternatives like Cement boards and MS structure instead of regular RCC and brickwork?
I was considering them for a shed I was building and savings were massive instead of regular brickwork. Work can be finished in weeks instead of months.
I ended up with an even cheaper alternative of using MS and GI corrugated sheets for walls and Bamboo and GI corrugated sheets for roof of the 4200sq ft shed. Almost all factory sheds are built like this these days and cement boards and other similar stuff offer similar cheaper solutions for residential buildings these days. They are also available in pre-laminated versions and are advertised as quite suitable for all kinds of environments.

Last edited by rdst_1 : 11th January 2018 at 23:22.
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Old 12th January 2018, 11:40   #723
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Originally Posted by rdst_1 View Post
Has anyone considered going for alternatives like Cement boards and MS structure instead of regular RCC and brickwork?
At the place where I currently stay most buildings create MS structure and Corrugated sheet at the top to keep weight low and let out to gyms /startups .. Many old banglows also have created extensions like this for commercial activities however I am not sure if it is good idea for residential use.

Image of cult fitness the brickwork at bottom is actually wallpaper and artificial turf grass at the floor and rubber tiles in workout area.


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Old 12th January 2018, 12:34   #724
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At the place where I currently stay most buildings create MS structure and Corrugated sheet at the top to keep weight low and let out to gyms /startups .. Many old banglows also have created extensions like this for commercial activities however I am not sure if it is good idea for residential use.

Image of cult fitness the brickwork at bottom is actually wallpaper and artificial turf grass at the floor and rubber tiles in workout area.
I am not suggesting GC sheets for residential purposes although some retro modern designs can incorporate them tastefully, especially if one is going for an industrial look.
I was instead suggesting cement sheets and MS structure just like people in US use wood frame and drywall. They also use similar cement boards known as Hardie Board on the outside.

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Old 13th January 2018, 00:02   #725
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Image of cult fitness the brickwork at bottom is actually wallpaper and artificial turf grass at the floor and rubber tiles in workout area.
OT: Isn't this Cult Sarjapur? How did you manage a pic of the empty lobby?
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Old 15th January 2018, 18:11   #726
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Since you guys have been helping with your suggestions, taking the liberty to quote you all.

So I visited the relative who deals in laminates, boards & mica and she suggested this brand Apricot. Cost-wise it was only 58/sqft but its a local brand as per my contractor.

I didn't find any website but the owner said that its a good quality board and my brother-in-law got a wall to wall cupboard made from this board.

I don't want to splurge on making this cupboard but wouldn't want to use really cheap stuff either. The only thing worrying me is the emissions thing and I realized that formaldehyde emission must be taken seriously.

See the problem I'm facing is that no seller knows what this E1 grade board or plywood is, including my contractor and the relative who is in this ply business.

I was thinking of using plywood instead of board only because its better quality and more robust but everybody else is telling me that boards do just fine in cupboard.

So questions:
1) Is it worth using those termite-proof or marine grade plywood even if it takes the cost of cupboard from 80k (for medium range particle boards) to 150-160k (high quality robust plywood)?

2) How do I figure out E1 grade plywood or is that something not to be worried about?

3) So far I figured Century Ply and Greenply are brands that I should be considering, any other brands which would be cheaper but still offer E1 grade plywood or boards?

4) I'm not opting for Veneer simply because the kind of laminates I saw in brochures is some unreal stuff. I mean glass-shine, stone shine and then the regular wooden look. Hope well-kept laminates would give me at least 10 years without any trouble and I'll always have the option to get it relaminated in case something gets damaged.

5) I was thinking of using Hettich hardware only, hope it can work with 4' sliding doors. As per my contractor he's installed it in various places and they work trouble free even after 5-6 years.
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Old 15th January 2018, 19:15   #727
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My response
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Originally Posted by fine69 View Post
Sin

So questions:
1) Is it worth using those termite-proof or marine grade plywood even if it takes the cost of cupboard from 80k (for medium range particle boards) to 150-160k (high quality robust plywood)?
Well I would say unless you have termite problem or water in the area you do not need termite proof or marine grade ply. Normal ply will do in a dry room setting ,
However my experience with particle board /MDF is not good so will say normal quality ply will be better.
Also my 2 cents go for painted interior finish instead of pre-laminated it works cheaper less chance of edge tape coming out and when it gets dirty you can get it repainted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fine69 View Post

2) How do I figure out E1 grade plywood or is that something not to be worried about?

3) So far I figured Century Ply and Greenply are brands that I should be considering, any other brands which would be cheaper but still offer E1 grade plywood or boards?
Skipping this someone more aware of current market can respond.
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4) I'm not opting for Veneer simply because the kind of laminates I saw in brochures is some unreal stuff. I mean glass-shine, stone shine and then the regular wooden look. Hope well-kept laminates would give me at least 10 years without any trouble and I'll always have the option to get it relaminated in case something gets damaged.
Yes aesthetics is purely personal choice.
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5) I was thinking of using Hettich hardware only, hope it can work with 4' sliding doors. As per my contractor he's installed it in various places and they work trouble free even after 5-6 years.
Again I will say whatever contractors say hinges are always better unless you do not have space to open shutter and strictly need sliding doors.

Hettich is good quality but it is not 100% trouble free either modern looking fittings with lots of adjustments are always problematic compared to fail-safe plain old hinges.

We have hittech rails in kitchen got them replaced 2/3 times compared to that hinges really have long life. Problem was that they have a small clip to take out the bearing and rail and if that clip opens the balls used in bearing just spill on floor. Compared to them old MS rails with plastic wheel and powdered coating finish lasted longer.

Also comparing between modern looking steel finish type hinges used in modular cabinets with old style brass /steel hinge which are used in doors /windows , The older style cheaper ones last really long.
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Old 15th January 2018, 22:22   #728
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Clarified a couple of things from the owner's daughter and here are the excerpts from the conversation.

Against 19mm boards 18mm commercial plywood is available.

Carpenters prefer boards simply because it is easy to work with.

Plywood is definitely stronger than boards but then boards aren't flimsy either.

There is no such thing as "termite-proof" plywood. "Termite resistant" boards exist and they only make the termite infestation slow. No plywood in the market today can prevent termite infestation 100%.

There is a plastic coat that can be done around the wardrobe (forgetting the name) and since it is plastic it prevents termite infestation.

Getting a termite treatment done before putting up the wardrobe is a better way of preventing termites instead of looking for a termite proof board (builder built wardrobe in the same room had termite infestation in one of the drawers and we removed it but it means that termites are a possibility in our house)

In kitchen WPC (Wood Plastic Composite I guess) boards are used simply because they are more termite resistant, these aren't really stronger than plywood.

Formaldehyde isn't that big an issue because the boards or plywood get wrapped in laminates and mica and there really isn't much left to emit. (These guys have boards in their basement and the effect of formaldehyde is visible there when eyes start watering, in houses it isn't too big an issue with so many wraps)

Plywood and board cost is the same for the brand they recommend, both would be 68/sqft for regular folks and 58/sqft for us. However, they can get me Greenply or Centuryply also but as per them they aren't much different, just bigger brand names hence the extra cost. 90/sqft onwards for Greenply and even more for Centuryply.

Mica is preferred over paint because it is cheaper and if the carpenter is good there is no issue of it taping off from edges.
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Old 15th January 2018, 22:55   #729
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Take a look at cement boards. They are supposedly termite proof and much more weather proof as well as they are good for even outdoor use.
Since you are going to be laminating them, it would seem to me that what lies underneath should have characteristics which save you the troubles of dealing with termites or moisture issues and supposedly cement boards are great at both.
Lastly one can also go for PVC boards but they will need to be supported with wood if you intend to use the shelves for heavy stuff as I have seen them bend under heavy load.
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Old 15th January 2018, 23:32   #730
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I was instead suggesting cement sheets and MS structure just like people in US use wood frame and drywall. They also use similar cement boards known as Hardie Board on the outside.
I am not aware of current composition of cement sheets but few years back Cement sheets used to have asbestos fibers as reinforcement and asbestos is banned in many countries and even in India from break pads.

Do cement sheets still comes with asbestos fiber reinforcement or the composition is changed ?

EDIT : As per website of Everest the cement corrugated sheets still have asbestos see the last two lines on below page

http://www.everestind.com/roofing/fibre-cement-roofing

Last edited by amitk26 : 16th January 2018 at 00:02.
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Old 15th January 2018, 23:57   #731
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I should have been clear that when I was talking about cement boards, I was actually talking about Bison Panel which is a cement reinforced particle board.

https://www.nclind.com/why-bison-panel
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Old 16th January 2018, 00:01   #732
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Originally Posted by rdst_1 View Post
I should have been clear that when I was talking about cement boards, I was actually talking about Bison Panel which is a cement reinforced particle board.

https://www.nclind.com/why-bison-panel
Thanks for posting the link hearing about this for first time will keep this option in mind for future.
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Old 16th January 2018, 11:19   #733
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For any thickness plywood will be stronger as it is a multiple laminated board (3 to 10 layers depending on thickness), in contrast board has one layer of ply on each side and the centre is filled with thick wooden pieces. I have experienced a lot of cases where the pieces just fell out of the edges.

My preference is for painted/polished surface rather than laminate clad, as barring factory hot pressed laminates, most laminates clad by carpenter warp and come off after 5 to 10 years.

Formaldehyde by itself is not a big problem, but in case of a fire its fumes kill, that is why it is best avoided.

Marine grade ply/board which is water and termite resistant, gives you an extra edge and longer life. It will also warp less than normal ply/board. In my opinion it is worth the extra cost.

Last edited by Aroy : 16th January 2018 at 11:21.
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Old 16th January 2018, 13:58   #734
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My preference is for painted/polished surface rather than laminate clad, as barring factory hot pressed laminates, most laminates clad by carpenter warp and come off after 5 to 10 years.
The kind of laminates that are available these days, I just couldn't NOT get them.

Actually factory laminates is what I wanted but the choices are very limited. If I get something decent I might as well get a factory pressed laminate. I totally agree that factory pressed laminates would be more durable than carpenter done laminates.
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Formaldehyde by itself is not a big problem, but in case of a fire its fumes kill, that is why it is best avoided.
From what I read and discussed with her, formaldehyde is used everywhere, the quantity varies and what may make a difference would be getting E0 grade plywood (hard to find and expensive I guess) but even E0 has formaldehyde in it.

A fire event doesn't worry me too much as my apartment is 3 side open and I'm on the first floor so its like having exits everywhere (including the main door).
Quote:
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Marine grade ply/board which is water and termite resistant, gives you an extra edge and longer life. It will also warp less than normal ply/board. In my opinion it is worth the extra cost.
The extra cost is actually turning out to be exactly double. So a 60-70k wardrobe vs ~140k wardrobe is the dilemma. I'm going to meet the plywood dealer again in person and take the call. I was more worried about the formaldehyde part but you guys' responses definitely help.

PS: I've heard this saying quite often. If you really want to take proper revenge with your enemy ask him to either construct a house or renovate it.
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Old 16th January 2018, 18:19   #735
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From what I read and discussed with her, formaldehyde is used everywhere, the quantity varies and what may make a difference would be getting E0 grade plywood (hard to find and expensive I guess) but even E0 has formaldehyde in it.
According to what I have read, urea formaldehyde is the bad one, while phenol formaldehyde is less hazardous. Phenol formaldehyde is used in waterproof plywoods.
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