[GearOn]

Originally Posted by Panko

SAF was consistently outsmarted by The Special One: Jose Mourinho. He is also outwitted by Josep "Pep" Guardiola. So SAF may be good, but definitely not the greatest.

But forget about United, what's happening at Chelsea is more exciting! They are the only side in Europe (may be apart from Real), capable of stopping the Barcelona juggernaut. They showed it in recent past. With signing of AVB as a manager and promising prospective signings, they will be the flavor of the season.

You think a manager with just two years of managerial experience that too with a team in a league miles below EPL would help Chelsea challenge Barca? He does not have the necessary experience and tactical know how.

Sir Alex has won 47 trophies in total. In response Pep Guardiola has won 10 and Jose Mourinho has won 18. So they have a long way to go before you even start to compare them to Sir Alex.

[deetjohn]

For all the Gooners out there, an excellent article on what is happening at our dear club. Even though it brings out the worst fears, a must read!

Arsenal season review: Where do we go from here? » Gingers For Limpar

[saildrive]

Very nice read: That said yes - my beloved club is just about to lose the top4 position that they have enjoyed over the years. Even clubs like Birmingham have beaten them.

THe defence is frail and their strickers have forgotten "SHOOT". Everyone is out to score the perfect goal and make watching the buildup a treat but never the finish.

It pains me no end to see them lose their firepower - last witnessed when Theirry Henry scored a goal against Real Madrid from half line guess it was 2006 in the CL quarters.....damn!

I keep hearing about Lukaku, Gervinho, Alvarez, Jenkinson...... none of them could be spoken in the same breath as Chichirito (ManU), Didier (Chelsea), even Spurs & ManC have got better killer strickers.... Van Der Vart & Dzeko/Balloteli. These strickers can send shivers down in the opposition back line leave alone the goalie.

Anyways - with Cesc, Nasri, Clichy on their way out ..... AFC's days are numbered and very soon I shall stop watching EPL!

[Panko]

Originally Posted by GearOn

You think a manager with just two years of managerial experience that too with a team in a league miles below EPL would help Chelsea challenge Barca? He does not have the necessary experience and tactical know how.

First of all, the statement that experience that too with a team in a league miles below EPL is supremely controversial. You will be aware that most of the South American players prefer to start their European careers with Portuguese or Spanish clubs (because of similarities in their respective cultures). When Porto won UCL in 2003-04 they defeated ManU (still coached by SAF) in Semis. Porto is one of the old European power-houses and still powerful. They have won more silverware than Chelsea or ManU. Same goes with Ajax in Holland, renowned for their perfect training regime.

So, if the particular league is not shown on Television, that does not mean it's poor or inferior.

I would like to inform you that AVB is no kid. He was already with Chelsea. Was in the support staff of Jose. He is completely aware of technical know-how as he used to scout the players.

Originally Posted by GearOn

Sir Alex has won 47 trophies in total. In response Pep Guardiola has won 10 and Jose Mourinho has won 18. So they have a long way to go before you even start to compare them to Sir Alex.

If you read my quote carefully, you will observe that I did not compare Alex Ferguson (he may be Sir for print media and Britons ) with AVB, but with Pep and Jose. For that matter even Pep has only 3 years of experience as coach.

[vb-saan]

Well friends, why are we fighting over the managers of Man-U and Chelsea?

We have a better manager in King Kenny, and Liverpool is the future
And my instincts say that Chelsea will win UCL next year.

[GearOn]

Originally Posted by Panko

First of all, the statement that experience that too with a team in a league miles below EPL is supremely controversial. You will be aware that most of the South American players prefer to start their European careers with Portuguese or Spanish clubs (because of similarities in their respective cultures). When Porto won UCL in 2003-04 they defeated ManU (still coached by SAF) in Semis. Porto is one of the old European power-houses and still powerful. They have won more silverware than Chelsea or ManU. Same goes with Ajax in Holland, renowned for their perfect training regime.

So, if the particular league is not shown on Television, that does not mean it's poor or inferior.
I would like to inform you that AVB is no kid. He was already with Chelsea. Was in the support staff of Jose. He is completely aware of technical know-how as he used to scout the players.

If you read my quote carefully, you will observe that I did not compare Alex Ferguson (he may be Sir for print media and Britons ) with AVB, but with Pep and Jose. For that matter even Pep has only 3 years of experience as coach.

I never mentioned that Porto are not a good team, but they play in a league which is not as competitive which enables them to win fairly easily. This will be difficult for AVB to deal with as EPL is the toughest league in the world as he is still in learning curve and by the time he learns i guess Abramovich will sack him as he gets bored of managers very easily.

Again with regards to Pep, he has inherited a great team which makes it easier for him. SAF has rebuilded a team which was in doldrums to a European giant which is the true greatness of a manager. Jose is any day a better manager and tactician than Pep.

[Panko]

Originally Posted by vb-san

Well friends, why are we fighting over the managers of Man-U and Chelsea?

We have a better manager in King Kenny, and Liverpool is the future
And my instincts say that Chelsea will win UCL next year.

King Kenny is a great tactician. Liverpool is definitely on the rise and will be the force to reckon with next season. They are making all their new signings wisely and building the team for future. It will not be far when Liverpool will be among the medals once again!

[athul_S]

Originally Posted by GearOn

You think a manager with just two years of managerial experience that too with a team in a league miles below EPL would help Chelsea challenge Barca? He does not have the necessary experience and tactical know how.

Sir Alex has won 47 trophies in total. In response Pep Guardiola has won 10 and Jose Mourinho has won 18. So they have a long way to go before you even start to compare them to Sir Alex.

Pep had just one year's experience of coaching in Spanish third division (the youth team of Barca) before taking over the senior team 3 years back. That didnt stop him from making a cleen sweep of all 6 trophies, including the CL win against SAF's mighty M Utd with a makeshift defense , the club world cup for the first time in Barca's long history etc.

Not saying that every young manager who does well for a year can reach the same heights but the fact is one can never underestimate people just because they havnt been at the helm for 2 decades.

Originally Posted by GearOn

I never mentioned that Porto are not a good team, but they play in a league which is not as competitive which enables them to win fairly easily. This will be difficult for AVB to deal with as EPL is the toughest league in the world as he is still in learning curve and by the time he learns i guess Abramovich will sack him as he gets bored of managers very easily.

Again with regards to Pep, he has inherited a great team which makes it easier for him. SAF has rebuilded a team which was in doldrums to a European giant which is the true greatness of a manager. Jose is any day a better manager and tactician than Pep.

Porto won Europa League, the championship where teams from the "toughest league in the world" have been competing mostly to make up the numbers and some from Spain dominating off late. Winning it against stronger and financially mightier is indeed a great achievement. As for Roman, i agree with you. As long as he manages the club like his Siberian oil wells, looking just for short term results/firing coaches at will/interfering in club activities, Chelsea cannot reach the level he wants the club to be.


As for Pep, the "great team" that he inherited had won nothing for 2 years before he took charge, despite having Ronaldinho,Etoo,Deco, a Cl winning coach familiar with the system etc. The dressing room was full of ego and conflicts.
He got rid of many big names,rebuilt the team,put the house on order and achieved what no team has managed, yet being humble as always.All this within the first year itself.
Surely, you cant write it off by saying that he inherited a winning team. He has made it one of the best teams in the game's history and that too within no time.

[GearOn]

Originally Posted by athul_S

As for Pep, the "great team" that he inherited had won nothing for 2 years before he took charge, despite having Ronaldinho,Etoo,Deco, a Cl winning coach familiar with the system etc. The dressing room was full of ego and conflicts.
He got rid of many big names,rebuilt the team,put the house on order and achieved what no team has managed, yet being humble as always.All this within the first year itself.
Surely, you cant write it off by saying that he inherited a winning team. He has made it one of the best teams in the game's history and that too within no time.

Pep has made Barca one of the best teams in quick time because the DNA of the club was already put in place by Rijkaard. He did not make radical changes. In response SAF inherited a team which was 21st in the League and was on verge of relegation and turned them into world beaters.

Just think what would Barca do without Xavi, Iniesta and Messi? If Pep finds players who fills those shoes year after year, then he qualifies to be a great manager which SAF has always done.

A managers true quality is shown in adversity. Its all easy when everything is going well for you. Lets give Pep and AVB few more years and then we shall be able to tell whether they match upto SAF.

[Cesc]

Originally Posted by deetjohn

For all the Gooners out there, an excellent article on what is happening at our dear club. Even though it brings out the worst fears, a must read!

Arsenal season review: Where do we go from here? » Gingers For Limpar

Definitely a good read. Kudos to the author.

Personally I still think Arsenal will stay in the top 4. Even if they do slip, I will continue to support them. Despite all their shortcomings they are still a great team to watch.

Personnels change and successes do not last forever. Institutions on the other hand have a much greater life span. Arsenal is a club that I have always supported and I will continue to do so as long as I watch football.

[athul_S]

Originally Posted by GearOn

Pep has made Barca one of the best teams in quick time because the DNA of the club was already put in place by Rijkaard. He did not make radical changes. In response SAF inherited a team which was 21st in the League and was on verge of relegation and turned them into world beaters.

A managers true quality is shown in adversity. Its all easy when everything is going well for you.

What do you mean by everything is going well for you?
If so, then there was no reason to let go of Rijkaard in the first place.
Barca under Rijkaard won absoultely nothing in the last two years and i dont think thats something you'd refer as going well for you.
From winning 0 trophies for two years to all 6 of them in the next is a miracle, that too for a new guy.
Its not like Pep had to just sit back and relax while the players did the job.

Just think what would Barca do without Xavi, Iniesta and Messi? If Pep finds players who fills those shoes year after year, then he qualifies to be a great manager which SAF has always done.

Firstly, Xavi was not even the main guy pulling the strings till Pep took over. It was Deco who ran the show.
The real Xavi was shown to the world by Pep in the last 3 years
I dont think any coach will have to worry about talent in barca's youth system
Of course, Messi is irreplaceable but there is a certain Gerard Deulofeu who could very likely be the next CR
If there was no Iniesta, Fab would have never left Barca in the first place
Thiago has every quality that will allow him to take over the midfield once Xavi hangs up his boots.
The kind of quality that the current youth system has is amazing and its only a matter of plenty atleast for another decade and a half.




The point i made earlier is,its not about comparing the greatness of coaches based on the number of trophies one wins in his lifetime.
Just because a coach doesnt have enough experience doesnt mean that he is not good enough, as Pep has shown in hsi limited career.
The same applies for AVB

[Panko]

Originally Posted by GearOn

Pep has made Barca one of the best teams in quick time because the DNA of the club was already put in place by Rijkaard. He did not make radical changes.

Rijkaard's Barca had already passed the autumn. They were going downwards. Then came Pep and revived the team only in a year. It's the most difficult task to revive the team that has already passed it's glory days. And believe me, Spanish league is much more fierce and competitive compared to EPL.

Originally Posted by GearOn

In response SAF inherited a team which was 21st in the League and was on verge of relegation and turned them into world beaters.

SAF became manager of ManU in 1986. He won his first UEFA Champions League in 1998-99. Now...do I need to type or explain further?

Originally Posted by GearOn

Just think what would Barca do without Xavi, Iniesta and Messi? If Pep finds players who fills those shoes year after year, then he qualifies to be a great manager which SAF has always done.

Xavi, Iniesta and Messi (to some extent) became what they are today under Pep. Added to that, Barca has amazing academy which keeps nurturing the talented footballers every now and then. Look at the way they play. Look at the way Pep outwitted SAF (multiple times) with his 'limited' experience. Even Jose Mourinho teased SAF to the limits.

Originally Posted by GearOn

A managers true quality is shown in adversity. Its all easy when everything is going well for you. Lets give Pep and AVB few more years and then we shall be able to tell whether they match upto SAF.

Exactly my point. SAF hasn't been under pressure of getting sacked for many years. Jose, AVB, Pep have to go through much adverse conditions and still they thrive.

[figo_united]

Originally Posted by Panko

Exactly my point. SAF hasn't been under pressure of getting sacked for many years. Jose, AVB, Pep have to go through much adverse conditions and still they thrive.

Dont agree to that at all.
SAF is always under pressure to deliver too. He hasnt build the credibility at the club by doing nothing. During the early days, he was under immense pressure too.

In 1990, "Three years of excuses and it's still crap. Ta ra Fergie." was displayed at Old Trafford, and many journalists and supporters called for Ferguson to be sacked

Ferguson later described December 1989 as "the darkest period [he had] ever suffered in the game",

And the rest is history as we know! But It just isn't fair to say he was never under pressure of the axe falling on him.

[joslicx]

On the SAF debate, its ludicrous to compare him to young'uns like Guardiola or Mourinho! He has won 48 major titles in his life with 3 different teams. Lets make this comparison when others achieve that.

He broke the hegemony of Scottish giants (Celtic & Rangers) with a small club (Aberdeen). Nobody in the history of the game has achieved that. I'd love to have your Mourinhos or Guardiolas try and achieve something like that with small teams against giants. Even that Aberdeen team won a trophy in Europe beating the likes of Bayern Munich and Real Madrid!

Being manager of a club like Manchester United is no joke. He has been there in that position for 25 years coz he has constantly delivered success. He created a monster out of a sleeping giant. Do you know the club was worth like 10m at the time he joined and now it is the biggest (and most valuable) sporting entity in the world (worth more than $1.8B as per Forbes). Thats nothing but 25 years of Fergie's dedication. I'd like one of these young managers to pick a small club and try and make it big like Fergie has done! How about Mourinho going to Newcastle and trying to make it as big as us! I bet he cant do that!!!

As for Guardiola at barca, hes been incredibly lucky. barca are blessed with an incredible team, a once in a generation kind of footballers like Messi, Xavi (who in my opinion is their most important player) and Iniesta and its imperative they'll win. But we'll only come to know in next 10-15 years if they can keep rebuilding sides and sustain success. Till then I'll refrain from making any comments. But I'd love to see Guardiola go to another team and build his own championship winning side. Until he does that, I wont put him in SAF class. He is definitely a better tactician than SAF but not a great manager yet.

[JVH]

Originally Posted by Panko

SAF became manager of ManU in 1986. He won his first UEFA Champions League in 1998-99. Now...do I need to type or explain further?

.

You haven't been around, have you? Utd won the UEFA Cup Winners Cup in 1991 (it was later reformatted into what we call now as UEFA Champions league) and also the UEFA Super cup.

And lest everyone forgets he inherited a bunch of gamblers and drunks when he took over at Old Trafford.

Let time talk. We can revisit this discussion years from now when the Young guns manage to achieve something.

Real, Barca, Bayern, Inter, AC, Juventus and all the other powerhouses have hit tremendous form in cycles througout the last 2 decades. Nobody has been consistent. Utd lost on trophies in the early 2000s only when the oil baron from Ukraine/Russia started spilling $$.