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View Poll Results: Do you support the lockdown extension?
Yes 299 47.46%
No 244 38.73%
I'm unsure 87 13.81%
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Old 18th June 2020, 18:14   #2491
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by proton View Post
But you yourself state that there are different issues from the original debate when the member thought that the danger was being downplayed because people had not considered how seriously it would affect them personally:
Ultimately it is still a thread about whether you are for the lockdown or not. All factors considered.

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..My comment was in reply to the claim that vigorous discussion by qualified and unqualified members would throw light on how the virus spreads. I repeat itís not rocket science.
That the virus spreads is a given. Every single person has acknowledged that, including myself. So, I am not sure what incremental point you are making.

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..As you admit, your evidence is anecdotal. One instance. In other instances, not applicable.
What would you like to see? A peer-reviewed article in some scientific journal saying that we have beds now? Can you show me one article from this week that says that says that beds are not available? Before you point me to an article that says so much capacity has been used up, let me say that capacity consumption is not directly equal to bed unavailability. With documented recovery rates going up every day, the number of daily discharges are high, consequently freeing up space for the incoming patients. Again, like I said, it is not a cake walk. Sure, there will be moments of anxiety. But, things are much better now than it was a few weeks ago. In fact, if anything it appears to be an uphill task for non-Covid patients to get care.

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..
Also, I'd like to know if your views reflect concerns about the handicapping of the healthcare system by over reaction from public, or about the ineffectiveness of the over reaction.
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Note that only one aspect is being dealt with. However, that itself has dependencies on various other related aspects, revealing how difficult it is to make rebuttals and why uninformed views are so dangerous; they can influence because they are so difficult to challenge, and so remain in view.
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..Certainly more than ten cents a pop. Or for the whole post.
Sir,

I read and re-read all your posts. Forgive me. I am sure that this it is entirely due to my inadequacies. But, aside from some small patches, I had to work hard to understand most of what you are saying. I request you to use small sentences and simple words to help us out.

To sum up, if you are trying to say that we are all having unqualified opinions; yes, maybe so to an extent. But, at this point, there is enormous amounts of information available both about the disease and about the counter measures that we are adopting. Also, we all have experiential knowledge from the past three months. Sure, we are still learning about this pathogen and all that. But, as of now, there is certainly enough information in the public domain for people to consume and use so as to come to decisions of their own.
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Old 18th June 2020, 18:25   #2492
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

The thread is for discussion of the lockdown. The poll was added some time after it began. Naturally, some views and posts will be more polarised than others, but for the more polarised to claim that
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Ultimately it is still a thread about whether you are for the lockdown or not.
is not at all right.
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Old 18th June 2020, 19:00   #2493
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
The thread is for discussion of the lockdown. The poll was added some time after it began. Naturally, some views and posts will be more polarised than others, but for the more polarised to claim that is not at all right.
You know what, you are correct. These three months have felt like such an eternity that I forgot about the pre-poll days. But, all in all, the thread has still been only about discussing the pros and cons of a lockdown, wouldn't you say? I am asking because we have other threads dedicated to Covid (as an illness) and the economy.
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Old 18th June 2020, 19:33   #2494
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by mohansrides View Post
You know what, you are correct. These three months have felt like such an eternity that I forgot about the pre-poll days. But, all in all, the thread has still been only about discussing the pros and cons of a lockdown, wouldn't you say? I am asking because we have other threads dedicated to Covid (as an illness) and the economy.
Bro, I have been enjoying reading from this thread from the beginning and benefiting from the contributions of many posters, especially those who have taken the time to acquire useful and correct content for their contributions. It's very common for threads to drift into related issues, and as long as they remain useful, they really cause no harm, or don't add to the discussion. In fact the drift from the poll topic is natural, because that issue has become more irrelevant, while the inputs to the current issues are becoming more informative and needed.

I only pitched in because, in the eagerness to push our views, we tend to become extremists/polarised, making black and white claims when the argumentations actually require nuancing. Two members made the same claims about the mask, which if allowed to remain unquestioned could easily have caused real harm! And I will clarify my statement, as you requested, by qualifying that qualified claims are not only from doctors, but also those who take the time to make sure their posts have substance, are not defensive, tribalist.

Again, case in point, the claims about masks...
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Old 18th June 2020, 19:47   #2495
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Bro,.....Again, case in point, the claims about masks...
Point taken.

But, you could have said this in these exact words in the first place and saved us a couple of days. I mean, instead of going all Shashi Tharoor on us!!

P.S.

No offense meant to Shashi Tharoor. I like the man in fact. He ran for office and won in the constituency that is close to my family.
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Old 18th June 2020, 19:47   #2496
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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You know what, you are correct. These three months have felt like such an eternity that I forgot about the pre-poll days. ... ... ...
I think there have been shades of grey and practical issues, and that those are more useful. Not (intentionally ) personal, but repetition of the polar views on either side is something that is not useful. At least, In My Humble Opinion, of course!

And yes, it has, and does feel like an eternity. With a strong feeling of will it ever end, and considerable doubts about what life will be like when it does.
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Old 18th June 2020, 20:21   #2497
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Is it true that it doesn't need coughing or sneezing, but just breathing out to shed virus into the air space in a room? If so, wouldn't a mask help even if no coughing or sneezing occurs?
As you can see, each claim needs a bit more mindfulness. Certainly more than ten cents a pop. Or for the whole post.
You have already made the virus an airborne disease by saying that by breathing out one actually sheds virus into the air, what you actually meant perhaps is that you are talking about fomites. And yes, to a certain extent masks helps in reducing the infection but you probably did not read what I actually said about the use of masks.


Refer to my post where I have said that people fiddle with their masks so much that ultimately it renders the use of masks redundant. Also, the use of masks is now advocated by the government but it was not so from the beginning. Here is the take of WHO regarding the use of masks during the early part of March ...please go through the article if you have time.


https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...257-2020-03-04


Even during the early part of the lockdown, the masks were only used by the medical staff who were directly in the line of fire because of the obvious. You can go through @Vivek95í s previous posts in this thread itself regarding the safety precautions he took while attending to patients. After around mid March, the government still issued advisories for the masks. Read on and this was mid March :

https://m.economictimes.com/industry...w/74669323.cms

Cut to April and suddenly the use of masks was advocated as being a major life saving tool for all. I tell you one thing, an infected person can also pass on the virus through many touch points even if he/she is wearing a mask. So where does that leave people ? Itís easy to pin point without going into the specifics. Many doctors are here in this thread, they can say weather I am correct or talking non sense here !!

Regarding your Ďin other wordsí things that you have mentioned, sorry but I actually couldnít decipher what you meant. You can disagree with me and please feel free to correct me since I am not qualified according to you. I have got this unqualified thing earlier also, so itís okay. Mindfulness or not, l canít say though.
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Old 18th June 2020, 21:38   #2498
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Originally Posted by ABHI_1512 View Post
You have already made the virus an airborne disease by saying that by breathing out one actually sheds virus into the air, what you actually meant perhaps is that you are talking about fomites. And yes, to a certain extent masks helps in reducing the infection but you probably did not read what I actually said about the use of masks.
What?! I didn’t make it an airborne disease, it already IS one, as well as one spread through fomites caused by contact!

Quote:
Refer to my post where I have said that people fiddle with their masks so much that ultimately it renders the use of masks redundant. Also, the use of masks is now advocated by the government but it was not so from the beginning. Here is the take of WHO regarding the use of masks during the early part of March ...please go through the article if you have time.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...257-2020-03-04

Even during the early part of the lockdown, the masks were only used by the medical staff who were directly in the line of fire because of the obvious. You can go through @Vivek95’ s previous posts in this thread itself regarding the safety precautions he took while attending to patients. After around mid March, the government still issued advisories for the masks. Read on and this was mid March :

https://m.economictimes.com/industry...w/74669323.cms

6. Regarding the usage of mask, a mask is only beneficial when you are around somebody and the usual distance is maintained.
Wrong. As soon as you step out of a known clean zone such as your house, you don’t know how you are going to change the new environment you enter. The mask prevents you from contaminating that air space as well as protects you from contamination from others. The latest research reveals that both transmitting and receiving is prevented.

Quote:
If one is not coughing or sneezing, then a person without mask is just as same as a person with mask who has some symptoms of cough and cold.
This is a bit convoluted. How can a person without a mask be the same as a person with mask who has symptoms of cough and cold? Does this mean a Covid carrier without a mask who is not coughing and sneezing is the same as a person with a mask with a cough and a cold? He is still breahing out viral matter. Does not compute…

Also the article says we don’t need masks normally. However if we come near a carrier, we need to wear one. How do we know if a person is a carrier?

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In a country as humid as ours, it’s near impossible to wear a mask always. I wear a mask when I visit the hospitals or the high risk areas but I don’t wear a mask when I ride my bike or drive the car because that’s useless. Some policemen have even stopped and questioned me for this but then sometimes logic works with them as well or may be I have been lucky till now !

But yes, if the mask is the one which will slow the spread of the virus then I am all for one but sadly that i don’t see it that way. The way people fiddle with the mask, it’s of no use even if someone is wearing one !!
By that logic, paper air filters are rendered ineffective in India. Another example of hyperbole.

Quote:
Cut to April and suddenly the use of masks was advocated as being a major life saving tool for all. I tell you one thing, an infected person can also pass on the virus through many touch points even if he/she is wearing a mask. So where does that leave people ? It’s easy to pin point without going into the specifics. Many doctors are here in this thread, they can say weather I am correct or talking non sense here !!
Are you saying the newer April research is a fad driven trend? Later research is always an improvement on the old, no surprises there. It's not an either/or situation. The virus was always transmissible through droplets, aerosol or physical contact. Is your question rhetorical? If not, then: People are left exactly where they were before, needing to be careful not to contribute to the spread of the virus, either by breathing out unfiltered air or transferring viral matter by touching things unnecessarily.

Quote:
Regarding your ‘in other words’ things that you have mentioned, sorry but I actually couldn’t decipher what you meant. You can disagree with me and please feel free to correct me since I am not qualified according to you. I have got this unqualified thing earlier also, so it’s okay. Mindfulness or not, l can’t say though.
I’m only saying we have to be responsible in making claims. Most of the sad stories are accounts of slips in making judgment calls, through being either misinformed or under informed. Responsibility involves being thorough, like I’m trying to be, now.

Last edited by vb-san : 19th June 2020 at 07:21. Reason: Back-to-back posts merged; it is readable as one single post. Thanks
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Old 18th June 2020, 22:23   #2499
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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By that logic, paper air filters are rendered ineffective in India. Another example of hyperbole.

I’m only saying we have to be responsible in making claims. Most of the sad stories are accounts of slips in making judgment calls, through being either misinformed or under informed. Responsibility involves being thorough, like I’m trying to be, now.
Thanks for enlightening, I did not know that the corona virus is an airborne disease, may be I am misinformed. I suppose it can possibly be used as a biological weapon then or may be the naysayers were right that the virus is man made, the jury is still to be out on that though.

I have not heard anyone using a paper air filter as a mask, hyperbole or not I don’t know or may be I am misinformed.

You are thorough in your responsibility and I am actually inadequate here to say anything more. I leave this here for our fellow members to construe about my inadequacies.

Mods: Please delete if found unnecessary for the thread, sorry for going little off topic !

Last edited by ABHI_1512 : 18th June 2020 at 22:41.
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Old 19th June 2020, 10:07   #2500
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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What?! I didn’t make it an airborne disease, it already IS one, as well as one spread through fomites caused by contact!
Can you please provide more details on the source of this information?
This is what I last across from WHO

Quote:
Based on the available evidence, the COVID-19 virus is
transmitted between people through close contact and
droplets, not by airborne transmission.
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Old 19th June 2020, 10:10   #2501
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Mumbai police portal seems to be very quick in responding to e-pass requests. Mine was like 2 hours from application to revert, however rejected.
Posting this here since this is the most active thread I need to urgently drive from Mumbai to Wardha, near Nagpur on 21st June and return on 23rd morning. Got some work at Datta Meghe Medical college, Wardha. E-pass was issued by MH police within 1 hour ( how I wish I could have secured one for Belgaum, KA as well ). I have posted the query here, kindly provide your valuable inputs --
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/route...ml#post4826360 (Pune - Nagpur : Route Queries)

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Can you please provide more details on the source of this information?
This is what I last across from WHO
Sir, yeh WHO toh rehne hi do. Not saying WHO is not worthy of anything, but for recent updates on the Covid-19, follow various journals of international repute. Besides, that article you shared is dated 19th March.

Last edited by vivek95 : 19th June 2020 at 10:16.
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Old 19th June 2020, 11:28   #2502
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Can you please provide more details on the source of this information?
Proceedings of the National Academy of Science

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2.../10/2009637117

Abstract
Various mitigation measures have been implemented to fight the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic, including widely adopted social distancing and mandated face covering. However, assessing the effectiveness of those intervention practices hinges on the understanding of virus transmission, which remains uncertain. Here we show that airborne transmission is highly virulent and represents the dominant route to spread the disease. By analyzing the trend and mitigation measures in Wuhan, China, Italy, and New York City, from January 23 to May 9, 2020, we illustrate that the impacts of mitigation measures are discernable from the trends of the pandemic. Our analysis reveals that the difference with and without mandated face covering represents the determinant in shaping the pandemic trends in the three epicenters. This protective measure alone significantly reduced the number of infections, that is, by over 78,000 in Italy from April 6 to May 9 and over 66,000 in New York City from April 17 to May 9. Other mitigation measures, such as social distancing implemented in the United States, are insufficient by themselves in protecting the public. We conclude that wearing of face masks in public corresponds to the most effective means to prevent interhuman transmission, and this inexpensive practice, in conjunction with simultaneous social distancing, quarantine, and contact tracing, represents the most likely fighting opportunity to stop the COVID-19 pandemic. Our work also highlights the fact that sound science is essential in decision-making for the current and future public health pandemics.
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Old 19th June 2020, 12:01   #2503
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Proceedings of the National Academy of Science

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2.../10/2009637117
Sir, perhaps this reading will make more sense here. Leading scientists have debunked the study that you quoted above. For your and memberís perusal -



https://www.outlookindia.com/newsscr...rborne/1870788

Now I am not so sure what to believe in !!
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Old 19th June 2020, 13:51   #2504
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by ABHI_1512 View Post
Sir, perhaps this reading will make more sense here. Leading scientists have debunked the study that you quoted above. For your and member’s perusal -



https://www.outlookindia.com/newsscr...rborne/1870788

Now I am not so sure what to believe in !!
From my understanding, after skimming the above articles, the conclusion is that it is not exclusively airborne. So keep washing your hands and don't touch your face or mouth.
And purely my opinion-
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Given the similarities to other viruses, it is likely that it spreads via the oral-fecal route. Be ultra careful at public restrooms and sterilize fresh produce - My opinion
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Old 19th June 2020, 15:50   #2505
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Sir, perhaps this reading will make more sense here. Leading scientists have debunked the study that you quoted above. ...

Now I am not so sure what to believe in !!
There's nothing in the article which says covid 19 is not airborne.
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