[yd_gli]

Originally Posted by mvadg

Just got confirmation on this - Rs. 25000 to reopen a tiny kirana shop according to the owner. Everything is back to normal.

Haha, Good times are back for men in charge! I went out for a bit after lunch. I needed to get hardware supplies and thought I'll check if I can fill up diesel on the way back since the pump is on the way. The hardware store is about 2kms from my place. On first glance, the number of people on the road was crazy high and almost nobody on bikes or walking was wearing a mask. The ones in their cars had masks on. Go figure! Most stores were in the process of opening up with quite a few already open including apparel, hardware etc.

I stopped at the pump to check if they would let me filled up. There was a line about 300mts long. There were a few young guys in Fortuners/Innovas who got their cars filled up. None had masks on. When it came my turn, the attendant said "no pass, no diesel". I asked him every one of those Innovas and Fortuners had a pass. He said yes, they had one pass in between all of them. There was never a line at this pump over the last month. All of a sudden a truck load of people have passes and are getting their vehicles filled up. It seems that we will never learn.

I now dread the situation when things open up for good. The lines at petrol pumps, banks, atms, airports, train stations are going to be hellish and every single gain over the last two months will be flushed down the toilet by the chaos that will ensue.

[Durango Dude]

As in the Spanish Flu the second wave comes with great morbidity and mortality, if they ease due to economic reasons our healthcare system which is already in tatters will never be able to cope up.

[paragsachania]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

I trust you have much more visibility on the liqour shop (can't make out from the video); but otherwise, I'd assume this was a line to a make-shift clinic for giving out health-checkup pass for out-of-state workers; to enable them to avail the trains and buses to their hometowns.

Indeed the queue was only for availing what I mentioned earlier.

This one is another one 1.5 Kms away on the same road that had queues not on the main road but inside a lane next to the shop since it had lot of shade due to presence of many trees.

Thankfully all are wearing masks (and I can see similar situation in your video).

Those closer to the entrance of the shop indeed are. Beyond few meters, which the shop owner too won't have control on, has people standing as much close to each other without masks, probably thinking they will wear it when their turn comes, just like how few motorists hang their helmets on their shoulders till they arrive at an intersection manned by cops.

On a different note, despite of wholeheartedly supporting the initial lock down and to an extent the 2.0 too, I have been on regular basis stepping out to buy essentials. Shops closer to home do not usually have stock of what you need (not what you want), and few supermarkets located further away mostly have everything that you need.

On yesterday, I and my wife decided to once and for all shop for the entire month (usual what we do), and hence wanted to visit a superstore that is located beyond a check-post. The cops didn't really flag us down but I had an honest effort to make here, to request the cops voluntarily that I was visiting a superstore ahead and will return back in an hour's time.

I was driving and my wife was sitting behind, both with masks. Upon explaining the cops, they did question as to why I cannot buy it from stores closer to home (This was around 3.5Km away) and I explained how our intention was to shop once for the month that mitigates stepping out frequently. The cops agreed to let me go but also said on return I have to deal with a different set of cops on the other side of the median.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ggSMYBXY0A

We returned exactly around an hour later, and this time there were traffic cops on the other side. I was expecting more questions since this is an entry point into Bangalore but I rolled down and told that I did request permission from the cops on the other side before I headed out and pointed to bags of groceries behind and he immediately let me go back.

[GeeTee TSI]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

Sir,

Could you kindly elaborate on what you mean by recklessness of others? I

Maybe I should have been more specific, did not intend to belittle anyone.

I think many people are not making a sense of social distancing - people waltz around coming too close for comfort at shops, along the aisles and in front of the racks people creep right next to me, someone on phone conveniently moves his mask away, many in apartment complexes hang around public areas.

The problem is the attitude and not awareness and I am not refering to a struggling man on the street here but folks who ought to know better.

I am not confident I can maintain my social distance in isolation nor do I feel confidence on others' resolve in doing so voluntarily. Things drifting back to what it was is my fear and reason to vote so

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by GeeTee TSI

Maybe I should have been more specific, did not intend to belittle anyone.

Oh, I don’t think that you miscommunicated or that I misunderstood. Also, I didn’t think that you were belittling anyone. So, let us not worry about all that. But, coming back to the specifics that you have elaborated on, I too was talking about the same specific examples. Please see below.

Originally Posted by GeeTee TSI

I think many people are not making a sense of social distancing - people waltz around coming too close for comfort at shops, along the aisles and in front of the racks people creep right next to me, someone on phone conveniently moves his mask away, many in apartment complexes hang around public areas.

Yes, these things happen. Absolutely. But that is what is called living life. People are within their rights to hang around in common areas and to do everything that you have mentioned.

So, I ask again. What is your expectation from people in our collective society? That they should be afraid just because you are?

Before you decide that I am simply trolling you, let me assure you that I am really not doing that. Just please think about what I am asking.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

Yes, these things happen. Absolutely. But that is what is called living life. People are within their rights to hang around in common areas and to do everything that you have mentioned.

One is at liberty to live as he likes even if he found to be infected. It is the job of the other person to stay away, if he is afraid.

BUT, how about some responsibility? If you have a disease, don't spread it. If you are not sure, get a test. And if you still spread it to another person, you have to compensate. If the other person is killed by the virus, you have to compensate. Ready for that? Liberty should come with responsibility.

[karan0009]

Hours After They Open, Some Delhi Liquor Shops Closed After Large Crowds.

Hours after liquor stores re-opened across India this morning, many shops in Delhi were shut again as huge crowds gathered outside the outlets, flouting social distancing norms. Last week, as the nationwide shutdown to check the spread of coronavirus was extended by another two weeks, the Union Home Ministry said that except in containment areas, standalone liquor shops can re-open across the country. These shops should not be located in markets and malls in urban areas, the government said, adding that minimum six-feet social distancing should be ensured, while no more than five people are allowed inside a shop at a time.

In Delhi, policemen were seen resorting to force in several parts of the city as they tried to control crowds outside liquor stores this morning. Nearly 100 liquor shops were permitted to open in the national capital that has over 90 containment zones; the city has so far reported over 4,500 COVID-19 cases and 64 deaths. Delhi should "allow minimum relaxations" to control the pandemic, Union Health Minister Harsh Vardhan said this afternoon, calling it his "personal opinion".

In neighboring Haryana, the shops remain shut as the district excise and taxation department has not received any fresh directive from the state government. Like Haryana, Punjab has also not allowed the resumption of sale of alcohol.

What will government do now? Home deliver liquor may be

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/coro...home-topscroll

[Hayek]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Debunking a lie that is being propagated again and again by men in suits - this time with a document from the Ministry of Health and Family Welfare.

This has been twisted by some folks to sound as if 80% of people are "asymptomatic" and hence do not figure in the disease statistics.

Source: https://www.mohfw.gov.in/pdf/FAQ.pdf

The MoHFW is talking about cases which have been found positive in India. And I have been talking about global data as shown in articles such as this one

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...tomatic-cases/

Or this one

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ng-wide-spread

If you bother to run a simple search, you will find studies from all over the world with similar results.

The facts are clear - more than 80% of Covid positive patients are completely asymptomatic and hence never tested. They can still spread the disease - which is why trying to stop the spread as opposed to slow the spread is futile.

I also strongly resent the use of the word “lie” while quoting me or anyone else - don’t think that is appropriate at all, and would request you to ask the mods to delete or change that word.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by paragsachania

Indeed the queue was only for availing what I mentioned earlier.

Yep, you are right. I stand corrected!

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

ronically the line goes by a liquor shop (ground floor of my apt) which hasn't been opened yet.

And I had to say this! Literally just an hour later, the scene below changed completely. The clinic closed up a short while ago, all workers were attended to; and dunno if done on purpose, the other shop is opening up now.





And already the status downstairs is worsening, with more folks joining! Men and women included.

discussion

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by Hayek

And I have been talking about global data as shown in articles such as this one

The first link you have cited is behind a paywall, and this is what the other article you shared says:

"The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has estimated that 25% of people may be asymptomatic for the disease."

Again, you are missing the context. The studies show that a certain % of the people who tested positive are without symptoms (or mild symptoms) - we can argue on the actual % later. It does not say that 80% asymptomatic+mild patients are untested and do not know that they have the disease. What I objected to was adding the imaginary 80% asymptomatic patients (who apparently were never tested) while calculating the death rate.

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by Lobogris

Out of the remaining 20%, the majority have mild symptoms and don’t require hospitalization.

Originally Posted by mohansrides

Many asymptomatic cases don’t even experience a “recovery” period as they were not feeling sick in the first place. They were only detected because they got tested due to contact tracing of one or more infected patients.

Originally Posted by vivek95

We do not exactly have the statistics as to how many are critical and needing ventilator support of those remaining 20%. ...

Thanks!! The answers make it clear to me now.

Originally Posted by civic-sense

This has been twisted by some folks to sound as if 80% of people are "asymptomatic" and hence do not figure in the disease statistics.

Originally Posted by vivek95

Oh yes. I am not sure if my statement so far has been misconstrued then. Let me clarify again, when I say, 80% are asymptomatic, that means 80 out of 100 people who are already lab tested positive show no or mild symptoms. It does not mean that 80% of the population as a whole is asymptomatic.

This study in New York throws light on how many of the general population are infected or may have been infected earlier. They did Antibody tests on completely random set of 3000 people. This was a significant study which indicated that the virus is much more prevalent than estimated.

Quoting from the study:

Nearly 1 in 7 people in New York who were randomly tested for coronavirus antibodies turned out to have them, Governor Andrew Cuomo announced today (April 23). In New York City, the number is even higher: About 1 in 5 people tested positive for antibodies to SARS-CoV-2.

If the actual infection rate among the entire population is similar to the early sample infection rate they found of 13.9%, it would change the death rate of the state, Cuomo said. New York is reporting 15,500 COVID-19 deaths, and if 2.7 million people were infected, that would mean the death rate would be 0.5%, Cuomo said.

There was one more such study also done in Santa Clara.

Antibody tests suggest that coronavirus infections vastly exceed official counts
Study estimates a more than 50-fold increase in coronavirus infections compared to official cases, but experts have raised concerns about the reliability of antibody kits.

[Hayek]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

The first link you have cited is behind a paywall, and this is what the other article you shared says:

"The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has estimated that 25% of people may be asymptomatic for the disease."

Again, you are missing the context. The studies show that a certain % of the people who tested positive are without symptoms (or mild symptoms) - we can argue on the actual % later. It does not say that 80% asymptomatic+mild patients are untested and do not know that they have the disease. What I objected to was adding the imaginary 80% asymptomatic patients (who apparently were never tested) while calculating the death rate.

And the point I am making is that it is NOT an imaginary 80%, plenty of data if you search for articles that are not behind pay walls, to show that 80% of all cases are not tested.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

One is at liberty to live as he likes even if he found to be infected. It is the job of the other person to stay away, if he is afraid.

BUT, how about some responsibility? If you have a disease, don't spread it. If you are not sure, get a test. And if you still spread it to another person, you have to compensate. If the other person is killed by the virus, you have to compensate. Ready for that? Liberty should come with responsibility.

I agree that if someone knows for a fact that they are infected, they should absolutely exercise restraint and get tested and do everything else you mentioned. The operative word here being “IF”.

In the meanwhile, anytime you decide that you want to compensate their families of these people getting dead due to the choice that was forced on them; a choice that you vociferously advocate; please let us know.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...297-2020-04-21

https://www.news18.com/news/india/th...n-2563719.html

https://thewire.in/rights/coronaviru...t-workers-dead

By the way, in the event that one does get infected, how would one go about pulling a “Byomkesh Bakshi” to figure out who to pin the criminal charges on?

[greenoval]

It's not just the SMEs, even the government has clearly started feeling the pinch of lockdown with revenues drying up. The Brihanmumbai Electric Supply & Transport (BEST) has been constantly calling us since the last week reminding us of the pending electricity bill for our commercial unit though the due date is more than a week away! We don't remember in the last 7-8 years when BEST has called us.

The interesting part is that the amount billed to us for the period during which the unit was never opened due to lockdown, is approximately the same as what we used to pay on an average when the office was 100% functional and open for almost 14 hours. BEST has gone ahead and generated a random figure based on past usage as they are yet to check the meter reading. Though BEST has committed to 'adjusting' this in future, expecting us to fork out when our revenue is close to nil plus the salary burden, for the administration's revenue shortfall reeks of insensitivity to the plight of small businesses.

[DCEite]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

There is a difference between saying: "80% of patients are asymptomatic" and saying: "80% people experience mild or no symptoms". What the chief has quoted is probably based on the people who had been tested as positive. But what had been quoted by people here (am not pointing at you) was that 80% are asymptomatic, so they never know that they have the virus (which does not figure in the numbers tested positive). In some earlier post, this was used to play down the death rate being reported currently should be corrected a 1/5th of the reported numbers.

Let me make it simple for you.

Lets say you live in a gated apartment of 500 people (just a random number, it could be anything).

Let us say at random 20 people in the apartment experience COVID-19 symptoms (fever, cough, shortness of breath, loss of taste and smell etc.). They decide to visit hospital and all of them are tested for COVID-19 and are tested Positive.

Normally the story ends here. The administration sends data to central repository which is then used to calculate Mortality rate and other metrices, based on the outcome of their respective treatment.

But here is a twist. Local administration is wise and they decide to test the remaining 420 people in the apartment. They found out that atleast 80 more people are COVID-19 positive out of these 420 people. Even though none of those reported any symptoms.

Here lies the problem (a good one at that). The actual mortality rate should be calculated taking into account these 80 people as well. Had the administration had not tested the remaining population, they would have never known about the COVID positive status of these 80 patients. And these patients would have recovered on their own without anyone even realising that they were infected with COVID-19.

Hence the notion that the actual Mortality rate of COVID-19 is much less then what is reported. What is reported is based on actual number of patients diagnosed, not the actual number of people who had the infection.

EDIT: Following interview of professor Jay Bhattacharya's study in Santa Clara County US for COVID-19 antibodies in sample population is very interesting, please have a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7v2F3usNVA