[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by carboy

Sure - as they say - 'The squint eyed guy is the king amongst the blind'.

There were lot of away series where Kumble's figures were such that it wouldn't get him into a county team.

Originally Posted by carboy

About Kumble's 600 wickets, the ones home have come at an average of 25 and strike rate of 60. The ones away have come at an average of 36 and strike rate of 75. His average in England was 41. His average in NZ in 40. His average in Pakistan is 42. His average in Australia was 38. His average in Sri Lanka was 45. Kumble was not a quality spinner or even an average spinner most places outside India.

You seem to be obsessed with statistics than real facts. I don't see a point in belittling Kumble in this thread. He has retired quite a while ago after having a successful career. He couldn't care less himself whether he was a quality 'spinner' or not. Fact is, he was easily the best bowler we had in last couple of decades.

While the stats that you have put may be correct, what you fail to mention is the amount of effort he put into his game. Ask any Indian captain from Azhar to Dravid under whom he played. He was there when his captain needed him the most. Sadly, same can't be said about current bunch of bowlers we have. It has come to such a state that even Dhoni himself had to bowl in last few games.

Originally Posted by ghodlur

The list can go on. The Indian team themselves are to be blamed for this. Right from the start of the series Indian team was never in the right frame of mind, the will to win wasn't there at all. The lesser said the better.

It's easy to blame the team, but as i have said earlier, it's BCCI which should take the blame. It has got it's priorities all wrong.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

You seem to be obsessed with statistics than real facts. I don't see a point in belittling Kumble in this thread. He has retired quite a while ago after having a successful career. He couldn't care less himself whether he was a quality 'spinner' or not.

I wasn't arguing with Kumble. I was arguing with someone who called Kumble a quality spinner.

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by ghodlur

The collossal loss of yet another innings defeat of India can be attributed to the follwoing reasons:
1) Poor coaching - Whats Duncan Fletcher doing by the way, relaxing?

You sir, could you educate me as to what is the role of a coach in the game of cricket? I thought it was just a ceremonial post.

Didnt Kistern say that players at that level dont need any coaching!!!

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by carboy

I wasn't arguing with Kumble. I was arguing with someone who called Kumble a quality spinner.

So what is he? Quality bowler who didn't spin the ball or quality medium pacer? Or are you saying he didn't have quality at all.

By your logic, Shane Warne is not a quality spinner either because his average in spin friendly Indian pitches is 43 and strike rate is 81.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

So what is he? Quality bowler who didn't spin the ball or quality medium pacer? Or are you saying he didn't have quality at all.

On Indian pitches, he was one of the best spinner ever. Outside India, he was a run-of-the-mill spinner.

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

By your logic, Shane Warne is not a quality spinner either because his average in spin friendly Indian pitches is 43 and strike rate is 81.

Warne is possibly the best spinner I have ever seen. Every career has some bad point. Check Gary Sobers - his batting was very bad against NZ - that doesn't mean he wasn't a quality batsman. He was probably one of the best batsman ever (next to The Don, of course), but he did very superb against every other country.

Likewise Warne had problems bowling in India. Without these problems, he would have been an even greater spinner. But even with that hiccup, he is a quality spinner, because he has done well in practically every other country. Kumble, OTOH, had problems bowling anywhere except on Indian pitches.

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by carboy

On Indian pitches, he was one of the best spinner ever. Outside India, he was a run-of-the-mill spinner.

...

Likewise Warne had problems bowling in India. Without these problems, he would have been an even greater spinner. But even with that hiccup, he is a quality spinner, because he has done well in practically every other country. Kumble, OTOH, had problems bowling anywhere except on Indian pitches.

Ok, so basically we are arguing over semantics used.
Current Indian team is missing someone like Kumble, that is what original post from joslicx was about. I agree with him.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

Ok, so basically we are arguing over semantics used.
Current Indian team is missing someone like Kumble, that is what original post from joslicx was about. I agree with him.

I don't agree with that. I don't see how Mishra did any worse than Kumble would have done? Mishra returned with 3 for 150. I don't see any evidence in Kumble's past career to show that he would have done much better in these conditions.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by carboy

I don't agree with that. I don't see how Mishra did any worse than Kumble would have done? Mishra returned with 3 for 150. I don't see any evidence in Kumble's past career to show that he would have done much better in these conditions.

The difference between Kumble and Mishra, or Kumble and any bowler in the current Indian team, is the heart that the man has. Mishra will not bowl if he broke his jaw during a match. But Kumble would. And he did.

Heck! Ishant Sharma did not want to take the ball after the second session after lunch at Trent Bridge because he was too tired. We were in a great position and could have skittled England out for under 150. Ishant was bowling the spell of his life and had ripped through the English top-order. He could have caused further devastation, but chose not to bowl. That move alone let the English team score in excess of 200 and then take the match away from us.

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by carboy

I don't agree with that. I don't see how Mishra did any worse than Kumble would have done? Mishra returned with 3 for 150. I don't see any evidence in Kumble's past career to show that he would have done much better in these conditions.

Hahaha, you compare Kumble with Mishra.
Probably that's the best Mishra could do. Since you are well versed with digging stats out of cricinfo, i think you can find the evidence yourself, if you want.

Here's one sample:
Headingley 2002

Kumble 1st innings:
33-7-93-3 2.81
Kumble 2nd innings:
29.5-12-66-4 2.21

India won the match, btw.

3rd Test: England v India at Leeds, Aug 22-26, 2002 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Next time you bring stats to the table, please carry a bigger bag

[carboy]

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

Hahaha, you compare Kumble with Mishra.
Probably that's the best Mishra could do. Since you are well versed with digging stats out of cricinfo, i think you can find the evidence yourself, if you want.

Here's one sample:
Headingley 2002

Kumble 1st innings:
33-7-93-3 2.81
Kumble 2nd innings:
29.5-12-66-4 2.21

India won the match, btw.

3rd Test: England v India at Leeds, Aug 22-26, 2002 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Go over the full career of Kumble & find out how many times he did something like this outside of India. If doing once in 30 matches is good enough, then I will pick Agarkar instead of other pace bowlers (in a similar comparison of pace bowlers).

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by carboy

Go over the full career of Kumble & find out how many times he did something like this outside of India. If doing once in 30 matches is good enough, then I will pick Agarkar instead of other pace bowlers (in a similar comparison of pace bowlers).

Now, you are talking something else. You said you wanted evidence. I showed you one where Kumble's bowling helped win a match.
Now you want more. I can give you more, but i don't want to waste my time on that. Please find it yourself.

[ghodlur]

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

It's easy to blame the team, but as i have said earlier, it's BCCI which should take the blame. It has got it's priorities all wrong.

Its much easier to blame the BCCI for everything but wasn't it the players themselves who agreed for the series, maybe they should have taken rest to count their IPL earnings. You are supposed to represent India as a whole on the international level and not everytime go down meekly which shows the players are not interested in the game at all. Sorry but this is my personal opinion.

Originally Posted by joslicx

You sir, could you educate me as to what is the role of a coach in the game of cricket? I thought it was just a ceremonial post.

Didnt Kistern say that players at that level dont need any coaching!!!

Wasn't it Kirsten who was credited to India's top spot in the test rankings as well as the world cup. What happened just one series down under? Have they faltered that easily. Its the coach's duty to identify the SWOT for the players and work on them. Nothing happened in Windies and now in England we are already on the mat offering the tests on a platter to the Engish without any fight. I think Fletcher is not doing enough, the Indian team coach's job is a high profile job and Fletcher was selected to continue where Kirsten left off.

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by ghodlur

Its much easier to blame the BCCI for everything but wasn't it the players themselves who agreed for the series, maybe they should have taken rest to count their IPL earnings. You are supposed to represent India as a whole on the international level and not everytime go down meekly which shows the players are not interested in the game at all. Sorry but this is my personal opinion.

Team was doing alright for last few years. This is the first series loss in quite some time. So it's not as if they are losing continuously.

When it comes to agreeing to play, i think you got it wrong here. I don't think players' opinions are considered. Every time Dhoni talks about playing too much cricket and it falls on deaf ears. So basically players don't have a choice. Some seniors who are assured of their places may decide to skip a few matches like against WI, but otherwise players don't have a choice.

You can say that they should have skipped IPL. But who organizes IPL? It's BCCI again.

Wasn't it Kirsten who was credited to India's top spot in the test rankings as well as the world cup. What happened just one series down under? Have they faltered that easily. Its the coach's duty to identify the SWOT for the players and work on them. Nothing happened in Windies and now in England we are already on the mat offering the tests on a platter to the Engish without any fight. I think Fletcher is not doing enough, the Indian team coach's job is a high profile job and Fletcher was selected to continue where Kirsten left off.

A coach is as good as his team in international cricket. And there was hardly any preparation this time, i won't be surprised if Fletcher hasn't spoken with all the members of the team.

I don't know if you have read John wright's book, it's a good read.

[PPS]

Originally Posted by carboy

About Kumble's 600 wickets, the ones home have come at an average of 25 and strike rate of 60. The ones away have come at an average of 36 and strike rate of 75. His average in England was 41. His average in NZ in 40. His average in Pakistan is 42. His average in Australia was 38. His average in Sri Lanka was 45. Kumble was not a quality spinner or even an average spinner most places outside India.

I do not know whether those statistics are true or not but Kumble's contribution to the team has been phenomenal ! Agreed he never took that many wickets abroad but what he would do is bowl tirelessly from one end the whole day without giving away too many runs. Now who in this present team can do that sort of job? Harbhajan benefitted a lot because of Kumble as Kumble would bowl tightly from end . If you go by statistics in all the Tests in which Warne & McGill played together you would know that McGill took more wickets than Warne as Warne would bowl tightly from end & at the other end the batsman would go after McGill and loose their wickets!
One should also remember Kumble's contribution with the bat. He would always fight it out and put a price on his wicket unlike some of our present tailenders who are over-eager to throw their wickets away by playing million dollar shots

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by carboy

Quite seriously, I am not frustrated. I have followed cricket through the 90's when Indian couldn't win an away match even against Zimbabwe. The fact that they won some in the last decade was like a good surprise. That's the reason the current loss doesn't devastate me.

About Kumble's 600 wickets, the ones home have come at an average of 25 and strike rate of 60. The ones away have come at an average of 36 and strike rate of 75. His average in England was 41. His average in NZ in 40. His average in Pakistan is 42. His average in Australia was 38. His average in Sri Lanka was 45. Kumble was not a quality spinner or even an average spinner most places outside India.

Do you know what the great (no pun intended) Warne's average is on Indian soil? (and against India in general). Kumble was not a big turner of the ball and was not that difficult for players to play him abroad.
If you want to look at negative things you can also look at how Kapil performed in the last 7 or 8 years of his career.