[amitoj]

Originally Posted by joslicx

But you get MOM for performance, not for non-performance isint it?

Today our team is in a transitional phase, which so many older players on verge of retirement. So many opportunities are there, both for bowlers and batsmen. My question is, why dont the younger players grab these with both hands? None of the new bowlers that have emerged in last few years are consistent enough to be even called club class, forget them being world class. Same is for batsmen. No consistency. How many chances did guys like Rohit Sharma, Yuvraj Singh, Raina and others have got! I am sorry but none of them have shown the temperament to play test cricket so far. Hence the reliance on our golden oldies.

Well, not really @performance. A batsman who has made a century in 40 overs or so will get MoM award, even if there was another batsman who made a quickfire 40-50 runs in the last few overs and took the team's score to a competitive level.

As for younger players, they have chosen to go where the money is, i.e. IPL and have tuned their playing styles accordingly.

Apart from that, our players' fitness levels have always been sub-par. That is why our fast bowlers keep getting injured.

Also, statistics in cricket are very rudimentary. Batting averages and number of centuries hardly give an idea about the impact the player has had on the team's performance. Take a look at Sabermetrics, which is used in baseball to get an idea what kind of stats actually reflect performance
Sabermetrics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[WindRide]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

..Who has the highest number of Man-of-the-Match awards? ...

If MOM awards were the criterion to determine loyalty to team and selflessness, Dravid would have to be less loyal and more selfish than Tendulkar. History, statistics and popular opinion say otherwise.

So lets discount that theory.

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

This example doesn't prove anything because MI is not a country, it's a private team.

A team is a team - even a high-school unit.

Are you saying its OK to be selfish when playing for every other team except for TEAM INDIA?

Originally Posted by joslicx

But you get MOM for performance, not for non-performance isint it?

True. It's possible for even Bhajji to get a MOM if he swings the bat around and scores a quick fire 50, when all other mainstream batsmen has scored lesser than him.

How much value should we then attach to an MOM award?

MOM is strictly that - man who performed best in THAT match. It does not mean anything else.

Originally Posted by joslicx

... And this when Tendulkar is not even the most talented batsman (doesnt compare to the likes of Lara, Ponting) but he is honestly the most hard working player to come out of India ever. ...

That description fits players like Rahul Dravid and Steve Waugh better - less natural flair but supremely hard-working and complete team-men.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by WindRide

If MOM awards were the criterion to determine loyalty to team and selflessness, Dravid would have to be less loyal and more selfish than Tendulkar. History, statistics and popular opinion say otherwise.

So lets discount that theory.

LOL!!

I asked you this earlier and asking you again.

How do you think a player should show his selflessness to the team.

You talk about Rahul Dravid. I hold him in the same high esteem as Sachin (a disclaimer as you might get on this).

Someone said isn't Rahul being selfish when he quickly resigned from the ODI Team after being called up during the recent ODI series in England?

So if selflessness was a criteria he should have made himself available forever to play any form of cricket when it came to country. Oh and he still plays IPL. Now?

Please try and answer my above questions about Rahul and Sachin. Thank you.

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by WindRide

A team is a team - even a high-school unit.

Are you saying its OK to be selfish when playing for every other team except for TEAM INDIA?

I was just questioning the example used to prove self before 'country'.
If you go by that example, most players were selfish at some point in their career.

There is definitely a difference in mindset when one plays for the country or an IPL team. IPL team doesn't have the same emotional attachment of playing for your country.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

IPL team doesn't have the same emotional attachment of playing for your country.

To add to this a lot of top players do not want to play IPL. They are in it because they have been asked to orelse..

And no a lot of them are not in it for the money.

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by WindRide

True. It's possible for even Bhajji to get a MOM if he swings the bat around and scores a quick fire 50, when all other mainstream batsmen has scored lesser than him.

How much value should we then attach to an MOM award?

MOM is strictly that - man who performed best in THAT match. It does not mean anything else.

We can keep arguing for arguments sake but NOBODY has still answered my simple question. What keeps others from performing better than Sachin??? Why should he get more MOMs (and by definition mean better player for more games than others?)

Why cant other players, for a change, step up and show us they are better on a consistent basis (just like Sachin has done since he picked up that willow for us as a 16 year old).

The situation is very simple. There are places up for grabs in Team India (I dont really care about other teams like MI or any other team. I care about team India that goes out to represent our country against others). Its upto youngsters to perform better than Sachin, Dravid, Laxman to oust them! Period.

That description fits players like Rahul Dravid and Steve Waugh better - less natural flair but supremely hard-working and complete team-men.

Steve Waugh isint Indian (read I said most hard working Indian player) and I'll accept that the Wall is in the same class. Not the most talented but hard working as anyone and thats why he is where he is.

We seem to have short memories really, as I can distinctly remember there was a time when people will give up on India winning the match once Sachin got out! That was our level of confidence on other players (and that reflects on the quality of players around Sachin). Its only about 2-3 years since others have stepped up (like Shehwag, Yuvi and now Kohli). For a better part of his life, Sachin has totally carried Indian team.

[suhaas307]

Jeff Boycott has said that the Indian team doesn't deserve even the 2nd rank.

My blood began to boil the moment I read that in today's TOI. This is our first series loss in a long time. We've managed to hold our position for a long time now. You can't win every single game. You win some and you lose some. Our players are tired. They've been flogged repeatedly for the past 5 months.

I would like to meet Mr. Boycott and remind him of the series when England had toured India a few years ago and got thrashed by us 5-nil. With 2 games left, the series was headed towards a whitewash but England boycotted the rest of the series due to the terrorist-attack.

At this very moment, England as a country is in tatters, what with all those riots and violence going on. Do you see our players getting onto a flight back home? No.

C'mon Mr. Boycott. Accept the fact that England ran away. And one series loss doesn't render our team the worst. It can happen to any team.

I see lots of gloated faces in the English camp after this series win. Nothing wrong with that. But you don't throw our team in bad light. Our team has been in much better form that England in the last 3 years. The records speak for themselves.

[WindRide]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

How do you think a player should show his selflessness to the team.

One way would be by not having a severe attack of "nervous-nineties-syndrome" every time a century is nearing. It's becoming more common for SRT to take an inordinate amount of time and waste deliveries to reach a century while he is in the 90s. With guys like Sehwag, Dravid, etc, the momentum doesn't come down drastically as it does with SRT.
Not sure if you have observed this phenomenon.

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Someone said isn't Rahul being selfish when he quickly resigned from the ODI Team after being called up during the recent ODI series in England?

The guy felt insulted and embarrassed and he made his feelings very clear. He is not a rug to be used and thrown around.
After being dropped in 2009 and kept out of ODIs thereafter, and just because every other Indian batsmen in sight forgot the art of batting under difficult playing conditions, incluing GOD, he is recalled and made to play just one series!!!

The guy just gave a mightly "thappad" at the collective faces of selectors. Hurrah!!
If you are going to label Dravid "selfish" based on just this one incident, then maybe he is. And iam glad he is so

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Oh and he still plays IPL. Now?

He has retired from T20s as well.

Originally Posted by joslicx

Why should he get more MOMs (and by definition mean better player for more games than others?)

I can think of two reasons - one cricketing the other being cloak-and-dagger stuff.

Cricketing reason - he is just so damn talented! None of his team-mates come anywhere close to him in terms of sheer natural talent and flair for hitting. No need to elaborate on that, iam sure.

Conspiracy theory? - I hear he has the final say regarding the position he bats in ODIs and Tests. In ODIs, he wants to open - hard and shiny white ball that moves lesser in air than the red cherry, field restrictions that favour batsmen are in place, in ODIs the bowlers are usually reduced to mere bowling machines with rules stacked against them, and ODI pitches are usually run-rich to start off with.

While in tests, he prefers to come down the order when the ball is older and fast bowlers are either tired or out of the picture with spinners operating. The openers would have taken the sting out of the dangerous pitch conditions.

This is what i have heard being said in hush-hush tones ;-)

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Jeff Boycott has said that the Indian team doesn't deserve even the 2nd rank.

My blood began to boil the moment I read that in today's TOI.

Relax. India will drop down to #3 if they lose the 4th test as per ICC rankings. And it will keep heading south unless we find replacements for tired legs, pronto.

[karanraheja]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Jeff Boycott has said that the Indian team doesn't deserve even the 2nd rank.My blood began to boil the moment I read that in today's TOI. This is our first series loss in a long time.

+ 1 to that . Just cant stand the English Media even one bit. I would like to remind them this is the same England team that lost to Ireland in a WC match few months back and got kicked out of WC. That time they were bashing their team and now they putting garland on them . I would wait for England to come down to Asian pitches and prove that they are No.1 . Just one series that Dhoni has lost in Tests and we performed badly and they compare us to Bangladesh. Pathetic !


OT: Has anyone been following Michael Vaughan on Twitter? Please check out how badly he's getting abused from Indian Fans

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by WindRide

Not sure if you have observed this phenomenon.

He did get to 90 didn't he? LOL!! How many others have got to that score as the number of times he has?

You think it is easy to go out there and score 99 and you wont feel the hibbie gibbies when on 99? Its psychological, that does not mean he is being selfish. It happens everywhere.

Have you played football and felt like a rabbit in front of the headlights when there is no one in front of the goal and your shot goes wide. Its a tense movement in cricket too.

A Sehwag hits his way out, a Rahul sticks to the text book. Sachin gets nervous. Simple. Why get the selfish part here.

The guy felt insulted and embarrassed and he made his feelings very clear. He is not a rug to be used and thrown around.

So the self- respect thing is bigger then the country? And you accept it.

But Sachin getting nervous in his 90's is selfishness?

SERIOUSLY??

After being dropped in 2009 and kept out of ODIs thereafter, and just when every other Indian batsmen in sight forgot the art of batting under difficult playing conditions, incluing GOD, he is recalled and made to play just one series!!!

You know what. I could give away my whole lifetime to play one match for India.

The guy just gave a mightly "thappad" at the collective faces of selectors. Hurrah!!

Not really he turned away his face when the country needs him.

Try doing the same with a soldier.

If you are going to label Dravid "selfish" based on just this one incident, then maybe he is. And iam glad he is so

Pure double standards isn't it? This is at the top level man.

He has retired from T20s as well.

IPL?

[Daewood]

Originally Posted by joslicx

And this when Tendulkar is not even the most talented batsman (doesnt compare to the likes of Lara, Ponting) but he is honestly the most hard working player to come out of India ever.

Tendulkar was a supremely talented guy from his teens. Even Gavaskar had said, that Tendulkar always had an extra fraction of a second before he plays the ball. That's something that hard work cannot give you, unless you're blessed with a superior eye.

Have you seen anybody else play the straight drive like he does? But the sad fact is, he's not able to play those magnificent shots anymore. He just places the ball here and there, like a Dilshan and somehow manages to score enough to maintain his average.
Don't believe me? Just read what Swan had to say about Tendulkar's wicket
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cri...eme-Swann.html

My question is, why dont the younger players grab these with both hands?

You can't expect an youngster no matter how talented he is, to deliver in the 2 or 3 innings he gets to play before he is dumped back into the domestic circuit. Talent has to be spotted and groomed.
Why haven't technicaly sound batsmen like a Manish Pandey or Badrinath been given more chances in Test matches, whereas people like Raina who cannot even handle a 125kph bouncer, are persisted with in Test matches?
BCCI wants stars to play for them, rather than upcoming talent.

This debacle in England is the right time for BCCI to experiment. If we keep relying on ageing stars to deliver, we won't move an inch forward. An younger team might lose matches initially. But once they gel well, things will brighten up. Talents will explode. A good example of a TEAM is the Srilankan unit. No superstars except Murali. Yet consistent performers in recent times.

Originally Posted by joslicx

And wasnt Tendulkar the top scorer for MI this year anyway?

In a match with just 120 deliveries to play and a field set to contain rather than take your wicket, if you open the innings and play 70 of those deliveries without playing any risky shots, any 'average' batsman will have a great cumulative score.

Originally Posted by Spitfire

How do you think a player should show his selflessness to the team.

An indirect answer.
Have you noticed the number of times a batsman in full-flow has had to sacrifice his wicket in a a run-out, even if the wrong call had come from GOD himself.

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by Daewood

Tendulkar was a supremely talented guy from his teens. Even Gavaskar had said, that Tendulkar always had an extra fraction of a second before he plays the ball. That's something that hard work cannot give you, unless you're blessed with a superior eye.

Have you seen anybody else play the straight drive like he does? But the sad fact is, he's not able to play those magnificent shots anymore. He just places the ball here and there, like a Dilshan and somehow manages to score enough to maintain his average.
Don't believe me? Just read what Swan had to say about Tendulkar's wicket
England v India: Rahul Dravid not Sachin Tendulkar is the wicket we prize the most, says Graeme Swann - Telegraph

Well, Tendulkar is talented, very talented but he is not a genius (unlike Lara or Ponting or Richards - these are three batsmen I have seen playing during my lifetime whom I consider as pure cricketing genius. There might be others in earlier era but I have not seen them play).

Talentwise, I consider Tendulkar in same class as Dravid, Kallis (though he can bowl as well), Kistern, Hayden, Saeed Anwar, etc.

You can't expect an youngster no matter how talented he is, to deliver in the 2 or 3 innings he gets to play before he is dumped back into the domestic circuit.

This debacle in England is the right time for BCCI to experiment. If we keep relying on ageing stars to deliver, we won't move an inch forward.

What are you smoking? Why cant we expect a talented youngster to deliver? On one hand you say we cant expect younster to deliver. On other you say we cant keep relying on aging stars to deliver. Then who should play???

Sports globally are becoming a younger phenomenon. How old were the likes of Nadal, Messi, Ronaldo, Rooney, Woods, Nikhil Advani (he plays snooker and was a champion at 18), Anand, Alonso (of Motorsports) were when they became champions and world famous??? Why cant our youngsters emulate them?

A simple example is ROhit Sharma. Hailed as new Tnedulkar and was given enough opportunities. Where is he now? Or this guy ishant sharma. A star at 18. but now, only at 22, he couldnt come out and bowl after lunch fearing a breakdown!!! And you talk about tendulkar who at 38 years of age scored a double century in 50 over game!!!

An younger team might lose matches initially. But once they gel well, things will brighten up. Talents will explode. A good example of a TEAM is the Srilankan unit. No superstars except Murali. Yet consistent performers in recent times.

Didnt they just lose badly to Eng and then had to recall a 42 year old great grand daddy Jayasurya from retirement!!! What an example.

In a match with just 120 deliveries to play and a field set to contain rather than take your wicket, if you open the innings and play 70 of those deliveries without playing any risky shots, any 'average' batsman will have a great cumulative score.

What else is the duty of a batsman if not to score runs and not get out? How does it matter if you score runs playing safe shots (which should be seen as a positive if you ask me!!!)

An indirect answer.
Have you noticed the number of times a batsman in full-flow has had to sacrifice his wicket in a a run-out, even if the wrong call had come from GOD himself.

This is now taking ridiculous pot-shots at a legend!!!

[vamsi.kona]

I don't want to quote anyone in particular, but what I feel is a person cannot continue to play a game for so long and at a level that sachin is playing, if they don't have the passion for the game and respect and commitment for the nation or team they represent.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by joslicx

Well, Tendulkar is talented, very talented but he is not a genius (unlike Lara or Ponting or Richards - these are three batsmen I have seen playing during my lifetime whom I consider as pure cricketing genius. There might be others in earlier era but I have not seen them play).

Talentwise, I consider Tendulkar in same class as Dravid, Kallis (though he can bowl as well), Kistern, Hayden, Saeed Anwar, etc.

Woo hoo, now you've gone and done it!

Hope you're wearing a flame-proof jacket. you're going to need it!

IMO, Sachin is a genius too. The records speak for themselves. A double-century in ODIs, more than 30,000 runs in international cricket, 2-decades of being at the crease and doing everything he possibly can. Those glorious cover-drives and straight drives. Few can play those shots better than him. His exquisite timing is unmatched, and he can systematically destroy the opposition.

He has been in the form of his life, off late and doesn't seem to lose steam.

Not just that, he's a mentor to so many players in our team. A great figure.

Yes, Ponting does fall under the 'genius' category. But what has he done in the last one year? Not much. Ponting's time is coming up. And so is Tendulkar's. And let me ask you this. Who is ahead of who?

It's as simple as that.

[motortechie]

sachin is a talented player.No one doubts that.The only issue i have is about his inflexibility regarding his batting position. In ODI's he wants to open. In test matches he wants to bat at No.4.In 2007 he made such a fuss about opening the innings in ODI's whereas the team management wanted him to bat at No.4 .In the 2nd innings of the first match and in the 2nd test we needed a stop gap opener.Now wouldnt it have made sense for sachin to open the innings since he opens in ODI's but yet he doesnt do so.Its upto dravid to sacrifice his batting order. Heck he doesnt even come at No.3 but instead it is laxman who comes to bat at No.3.
Now when a legend like dravid can make compromises and open the innings when the situation demanded what stops sachin from making a small compromise to bat at No.3 or open the innings instead of batting at No.4 as a stop gap arrangement?