[WindRide]

IMO the difference between "great" and "genius" is very thin. But if you want to hazard a definition, it could be thus:

A great player is often an exceptional player who works continously on his technique and gets better at his art all the time. Essentially, a hard working player. Dravid comes to my mind immediately.

A genius on the other hand relies purely on instinct and is often impatient and intolerant of lesser mortals. Someone said genius is all instinct and no thinking. Sir Viv's genius was his lightning fast reflexes, that gave him extra time to destroy some of the best fast bowling attacks the sport has ever seen. Imran Khan famously commented that Sir Viv was a genius with a faulty technique.

Lara falls in the latter category.
Maybe SRT falls somewhere in between.
It's a stretch calling Ponting a "genius"!

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by WindRide

IMO the difference between "great" and "genius" is very thin. But if you want to hazard a definition, it could be thus:

A great player is often an exceptional player who works continously on his technique and gets better at his art all the time. Essentially, a hard working player. Dravid comes to my mind immediately.

A genius on the other hand relies purely on instinct and is often impatient and intolerant of lesser mortals. Someone said genius is all instinct and no thinking. Sir Viv's genius was his lightning fast reflexes, that gave him extra time to destroy some of the best fast bowling attacks the sport has ever seen. Imran Khan famously commented that Sir Viv was a genius with a faulty technique.

Lara falls in the latter category.
Maybe SRT falls somewhere in between.
It's a stretch calling Ponting a "genius"!

Agree! You spared me the blushes.

Its really difficult to describe genius. A particular movie comes to my mind. A certain Matt Damon starrer "Good Will Hunting".


Theres a prof (Stellan Skarsgard) at MIT who is a Field's medal winner (that is equivalent to Nobels in Mathematics) and probably is the top guy in the world in his field. He comes across this guy (Matt Damon) who sweeps around the halls in MIT, who is a natural genius! You should see the movie to understand the difference!

There were moments when Lara batted when I was awestruck "How did he do that!" and convinced nobody else in the world can do that! Same goes for Ponting and Sir Viv. With Tendulkar, its more like, as someone here said, he makes batting look so easy and risk free (by the way this could qualify him as a genius but just not for me!!!). There are too less wow moments and too many times he has failed at the biggest finals. Tendulkar has shown a tendency to flop at a moment when he is needed the most (probably that is why so much of his criticism here on this thread).

Originally Posted by Daewood

What i said is you can't expect any youngster, no matter how talented he is to start delivering from day one.
All the youngsters whom you mentioned didn't win their Championship title in their first outing itself. Not all talents have fairytale starts like Boris Becker.

But I expect the same from youngsters (for we expect the same from seniors as well!) If they have to dislodge others from the team they have to perform better than them "consistently". The "seniors" took us to No. 1 rankings in test cricket. The youngsters have the responsibility to maintain that. Simple!

What i meant was, when you play 70 balls in a T20 match what's the use if you score a little more than 'a run a ball'? That's why in almost all of MI's innings it was left to Pollard to do the rescue act. And whenever he failed they lost.
Strike rate matters more in T20 than 'orange caps' or 50s and 100's.

Who cares for T20 and moreso IPL!!! Its just a money making exercise for players and BCCI. The aam-junta (you and me) and just big time losers! Afterall their fat paychecks go out of our pockets only :(

[Spitfire]

So guys, a genius player cannot necessarily be a great and vice versa. And SRT is 50% genius and 50% great?

SERIOUSLY!!!

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

So guys, a genius player cannot necessarily be a great and vice versa. And SRT is 50% genius and 50% great?

SERIOUSLY!!!

That is correct. Not all greats were geniuses and not all geniuses became great (in general).

Regarding SRT. My position is clear. I dont think of him as a batting genius. Though he is the greatest batsman I have seen.

Cannot be any more clear!

[comfortablynumb]

Originally Posted by joslicx

Not all greats were geniuses and not all geniuses became great (in general).

A little bit OT from the ongoing discussion about SRT: A few of my favorite batsmen are Carl Hooper, David Gower and Mark Waugh. The part in bold underline certainly applies to them!

Cheers,
Vikram

[Spitfire]

Ok so at an individual level everyone is free to come up with their own definitions of greats, geniuses and what not.

So yeah for you'll that might work. No issues there. Each one has an opinion. So at an individual level and at each individuals level of knowledge of the game we can have umpteenth geniuses and greats some of which the others might not have even heard of.

But then that's not what we were discussing.

[kirantp]

Originally Posted by joslicx

That is correct. Not all greats were geniuses and not all geniuses became great (in general).

Regarding SRT. My position is clear. I dont think of him as a batting genius. Though he is the greatest batsman I have seen.

Cannot be any more clear!

Friends, I totally agree with your views on SRT. From my personal view being a Cricketer myself having played for KSCA Leagues and other corporate tournys, I would say that
1) he plays more for personal glory than for the team
2) influences others in all decisions be it minor/major.
3) Was responsible to a great extent for the team performing below par when Agarkar was being glued into the team for extended duration inspite of his horrific performances.
4) Definitely has the talent and technique that no other batsman can imitate. However, he has not used it constructively to uplift the team or for the benifit of other young players.
5) India has more %age of losses whenever he has scored above 50.

[WindRide]

Originally Posted by comfortablynumb

A little bit OT from the ongoing discussion about SRT: A few of my favorite batsmen are Carl Hooper, David Gower and Mark Waugh. The part in bold underline certainly applies to them!

Cheers,
Vikram

DavidG and MarkW were the most elegant batsmen of their time.

On MarkW, where do i even begin!!! I never fail to relish MarkW's batting when the old matches are replayed on Star Cricket. He made batting look so effortless. His batting was so light on feet and with very less movements. Maximum results with minimum effort. The guy was a prodigy, but a flawed genius. He probably never gave his natural gift the seriousness it deserved.

[amitoj]

A contract with BCCI does not supersede the "influence" that individuals have. And in case of someone like SRT, that influence is way more powerful than a piece of paper.

Anyway, looking at the current test match, i dont understand why Dhoni is standing so far back. Because of that, catches from the few and far in between edges are falling short of the slip fielders. Is he trying to protect his injured thumb?

[WindRide]

^Agreed. No on will dare go against SRT - not even those handing out those contracts. Reason being BCCI wants SRT to bat at a position HE feels most comfortable at, not where the captain wants him to. SRT brings in the moolah for BCCI, you see.
Its all a 'you scratch my back, i'll scratch yours' arrangement.

Regarding the current match, has anyone noticed how fit and superb the physique of the English players (and bowlers, in particular) look? They are so lean and toned and fit!!! Just compare our boys. RP Singh looks like he just walked out from a lavish indian wedding buffet table after filling up. And i don't even want to start on Sehwag - the guy just pops out of his clothes.

Sreesanth seems to have one too many deep fried beef fry - just look at his cheeks.

Only saving grace is Ishant; but then he always resembled a hungry Great Dane.

[kirantp]

Originally Posted by amitoj

A contract with BCCI does not supersede the "influence" that individuals have. And in case of someone like SRT, that influence is way more powerful than a piece of paper.

Anyway, looking at the current test match, i dont understand why Dhoni is standing so far back. Because of that, catches from the few and far in between edges are falling short of the slip fielders. Is he trying to protect his injured thumb?

@amitoj - He is trying to protect his bad technique from being exposed. Moreover, its the lack of ability to judge the amount of swing in English conditions that is making him play safe. Otherwise, from the Day1 of 1st test until now, how many times catches have died down just couple of inches short of slip cordon and still our team has not learnt the art of aligning themselves in slips. Its really pathetic to see them on a free fall right from the top couple of months ago.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by amitoj

A contract with BCCI does not supersede the "influence" that individuals have. And in case of someone like SRT, that influence is way more powerful than a piece of paper.

You serious?

Ok I will give you another take a situation in most of our daily lives of working in IT.

Situation 1: We have this genius in a team, does what he does best in the company of 2k people, has been instrumental in holding major projects (clients like him - gets money in), works his rear out for the team. Isnt the team leader but is a principal of the team along with a couple of others. Is proficient in a particular aspect say A.

Now a new team leader comes in, knows the creed of this guy and asks him say do you Mr. Genius think that you can handle B, its the same job, same people you face, same music you hear. Only difference is you come in at B now and not A (A and B is not in order of importance, random).

Mr Genius says see dude what you say is correct and I agree. If you want it I will do it. But over the last 20 years of doing this thing day in and day out, believe I know what I am saying and I will give my level best at where I was and want t continue. My history speaks for me. I can do B too but I would prefer staying at A and trying to improve myself. What say?

Situation 2: Now take your situation, Mr Genius sulks. Goes to higher management and says. That kid wants me to go do B, does he even know what A is? Then goes to rest of the team and says guys; at the water cooler take my name and see the folks go hysterical and the new guy thinks I should do B. I will see how he lets that happen.

Which situation do you think happens in an Indian Team dressing room, 1 or 2?

We can sit here and talk all about this till the pigs fly but this influence bit is so untrue. The top flight players prefer a position and ask for it. Everyone in every day conditions has a preference. Some help in getting the preference in their favor only due to their sheer work ethics at it. And surely not influence.

Awe yes, influence not at all.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by kirantp

@amitoj - He is trying to protect his bad technique from being exposed. Moreover, its the lack of ability to judge the amount of swing in English conditions that is making him play safe. Otherwise, from the Day1 of 1st test until now, how many times catches have died down just couple of inches short of slip cordon and still our team has not learnt the art of aligning themselves in slips. Its really pathetic to see them on a free fall right from the top couple of months ago.

If he can't judge the swing from our gentle medium paced bowlers, then he should not be keeping wickets.

The slip fielders position themselves relative to the keeper. If the keeper is too far back, obviously the catches will fall short.

Well, all good runs must come to an end. And it was a known fact that our team never had the bowling attack to sustain it's position at number 1. What with the most ineffective spinner continuously occupying a place in the playing 11 and the pace bowlers going through the revolving doors of injury.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Which situation do you think happens in an Indian Team dressing room, 1 or 2?

LOL. If i answer that, and you dont like my reply, you are just going to say, "have you ever been inside a dressing room?!?"

So, no i am not falling for that.

By the way, A is not the same as B. I thought you would know that, given that you have played at pro level.

But if Sachin is as great a player as his fans make him out to be, then he should not have any problems in changing his batting position. The "great" man should be willing to face the new, swinging red cherry in tests by opening and should be willing to come down the order in ODIs when there are no field restrictions. Why does he have one preference for ODIs and another for tests? Maybe because he realizes his weakness, which is fine because ultimately it may benefit the team only.

But, and this is the biggest one so read carefully, do his fans realize and accept that weakness in him? NO.

[kirantp]

Originally Posted by amitoj

If he can't judge the swing from our gentle medium paced bowlers, then he should not be keeping wickets.

The slip fielders position themselves relative to the keeper. If the keeper is too far back, obviously the catches will fall short.

Well, all good runs must come to an end. And it was a known fact that our team never had the bowling attack to sustain it's position at number 1. What with the most ineffective spinner continuously occupying a place in the playing 11 and the pace bowlers going through the revolving doors of injury.

This is what we all saw in 1st two tests right. Our so called keeper never was comfortable with the swing of Praveen Kumar and had no idea what the ball would do once it passes the bat .

Our good for nothing spinner was enjoying his everlasting honeymoon in the team and thanks to SRT again for his backing due to which other deserving people in the ranks of Ashwin, Mishra had to either miss the tour or sit out of the playing 11.