[pratyush6]

I am not a big fan of Pandya or Bumrah in Tests, yet they ended up with 5 wicket hauls in this test. Pandya bowled in conditions which were helpful and got the ball to swing and sometimes things do fall your way.
What about Bumrah? The length he bowls is a typical back of length ODI stuff. Were England batsmen so bad to get out to him? Or it just happened he picked up wickets?

Am I missing something?

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by pratyush6

What about Bumrah? The length he bowls is a typical back of length ODI stuff. Were England batsmen so bad to get out to him? Or it just happened he picked up wickets?

He is a quick learner and bowled long spells. The England batsmen played for the angle but he took the ball away well enough. He bowled a fuller length in the second innings at high pace. His whippy arm action also helped along with the fact he used the width of the crease. He bowled a short delivery to dismiss Woakes, which Michael Holding termed as one of the best short deliveries he had seen in some time.
This he picked up from his first innings dismissal by Pandya. Maybe the bowling coaches have some say in building this strategy.

This should by far be our strongest pace bowling attack ever. Now if Bhuvneshwar can get/ stay fit and Umesh Yadav hits his straps, the Australian tour could be fun.

[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

He is a quick learner and bowled long spells. The England batsmen played for the angle but he took the ball away well enough. He bowled a fuller length in the second innings at high pace. His whippy arm action also helped along with the fact he used the width of the crease.
This he picked up from his first innings dismissal by Pandya. Maybe the bowling coaches have some say in building this strategy.

I tuned in when we had to take a couple of wickets. He got Rashid off a no ball (again). I saw his reaction of shutting spectators up when he finally managed his 5th wicket. I was like I mean, if we had 1 hour to take those 2 wickets, the game would have ended in a draw. Let's be honest, despite him being new in Tests, he is by no measures a newbie and if you still cannot fix a no ball problem, then you just cannot trust someone like that.

Also, remember the umpires only check the no ball when wickets fall down, I wonder how many are not even called.

Originally Posted by selfdrive

This should by far be our strongest pace bowling attack ever. Now if Bhuvneshwar can get/ stay fit and Umesh Yadav hits his straps, the Australian tour could be fun.

Haven't we heard this umpteen times. I honestly like the SA attack, they have everything covered - pace, bounce, swing, seam, reverse. India & English bowlers are only good when it swings and seams. There was also a great piece on cricinfo about our bowlers effectiveness.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/...eme-conditions

I don't know. This team is just too fickle for us to be certain of anything. Kohli is quite clearly the best batsman in this side and capable of handling himself anywhere. No one else is good enough.
On the bowling front, its more or less settled, everyone will bowl better if the conditions are in their favour, else I think Shami is someone who is pretty much the only one if he gets on a roll, can rip the other team (but he is too inconsistent). Ashwin and Jadeja, if they get conditions, they are too good as well.

Team for the next 2 Tests:
Vihari's performance in India have him selected for Tests in England! And Shaw - I honestly felt his game isn't yet at even a sub-Test level. When did score against WI'A' become a benchmark?

We've dropped Vijay, I don't get it - our flat track bullies get selected consistently while Vijay gets dropped after an admittedly low rung of scores. You see these things and get disenchanted with the whole bloody system. After a while, people would simply stop caring.

[VWAllstar]

Originally Posted by pratyush6

I tuned in when we had to take a couple of wickets. He got Rashid off a no ball (again). I saw his reaction of shutting spectators up when he finally managed his 5th wicket. I was like I mean, if we had 1 hour to take those 2 wickets, the game would have ended in a draw. Let's be honest, despite him being new in Tests, he is by no measures a newbie and if you still cannot fix a no ball problem, then you just cannot trust someone like that...

...We've dropped Vijay, I don't get it - our flat track bullies get selected consistently while Vijay gets dropped after an admittedly low rung of scores. You see these things and get disenchanted with the whole bloody system. After a while, people would simply stop caring.

Murali Vijay is already 34 and investing time and efforts in him isn't going to pay rich dividence. We have to realise that he and Dhawan have not been exceptional but rather mediocre and most times atrocious when we tour outside the sub continent.

Giving opportunities to Shaw and Vihari should be good for their own learning and confidence. Shaw has consistently proved himself in the domestic circuit, India under 19's and India A. It is sad that Mayank Agrawal has been overlooked.

Shaw and KL Rahul can be a good combination given the fact that they can adjust their stroke play according to the situation. K L Rahul has a lot of talent but hope he does not get carried away with all the attention.

Hardik Pandya is like a make do ben stokes. He does not have the skill to be a proper test batsmen. But you need to give it to him for his energy on the field. And with time Hardik + Pant could be what Gilly was for Australia.

Bhuvi, an improved Ishant and sincere Shami with the intelligent Ashwin can form a lethal bowling attack. Throw in Bhumrah and Yadav as per the pitch and opponent and we can be confident of taking 20 wickets.

Pujara and Rahane need to up their contribution. Pujara with his strike rate and Rahane with some concrete runs.

[NPV]

Originally Posted by pratyush6

Vihari's performance in India have him selected for Tests in England!

Not just his domestic performances in Ranji Trophy and Irani Trophy.

He played very well in the India A series in England in June this year scoring a century and a half century in the 3 matches he played (Shreyas Iyer was captain and team also had Prithvi Shaw, Shubman Gill, Mayank Agarwal among others).

Earlier this month Hanuma made 148 Vs South Africa A in the unofficial test (4 day match).

*Hanuma may still not play a test, while Prithvi has better chances with Murali Vijay out of the squad.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

The thing with Test Cricket, and Cricket in general is that you cannot and should not look at figures in isolation.

For example, this Test series results read 2-1, but it's clear that India has been the dominant side, barring the disastrous Lord's Test match. The first match was a pretty close one, with VK being the stand out player between both teams. What sealed it for England at the very end of the match was the late flourish in the 3rd Innings.

The first match was closely fought but England won so obviously they were better, we got a royal old drubbing in the second test match and England were comprehensively better, third test match we beat them by 200 odd runs and we are the dominant side? I dont understand the math.

By the way that flourish, flourished because we dont have a bowler which can finish the tail quick and i think its reasonable to expect our quickie in the team purely for bowling should be able to do that atleast once in the last 6 innings!

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Shami has held up the other end quite well, in my opinion. It is true that he has not been great in terms of length and has often pitched it up to settled batsmen giving them the opportunity to strike through the line. But he has undoubtedly held the other end well enough to justify his place in the team.

So he was not great in terms of length bowled so went for runs and he did not take wickets either but he held the other end well? You cannot have a premier front line fast bowler purely in the team for bowling, bowling in conditions conducive for fast bowling sitting on 7 wickets from 3 test matches.

[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by VWAllstar

Murali Vijay is already 34 and investing time and efforts in him isn't going to pay rich dividence.

He is 34, not 44. And till last test he was India's best opener, how did this change?

Originally Posted by VWAllstar

Hardik Pandya is like a make do ben stokes. He does not have the skill to be a proper test batsmen. But you need to give it to him for his energy on the field. And with time Hardik + Pant could be what Gilly was for Australia.

You really do have high hopes. Despite this performance, I don't look at Pandya as either a batsman or a bowler - he needs to be atleast one and then even a half other skill will be fine. As far as Pant, we do need to give him some time. His performance in IPL were stupendous, but that is not a great barometer for success in Tests.

Originally Posted by VWAllstar

Bhuvi, an improved Ishant and sincere Shami with the intelligent Ashwin can form a lethal bowling attack. Throw in Bhumrah and Yadav as per the pitch and opponent and we can be confident of taking 20 wickets.

Pujara and Rahane need to up their contribution. Pujara with his strike rate and Rahane with some concrete runs.

I love your adjectives! I also think our bowling will never be lethal. Neither Pujara & Rahane be any different than they are now, we have enough of a sample size. I also think Anderson was mighty unlucky with his bowling, on any other day, he would have ended up with half of India's wickets, with half the total scores (in the first Test).

Originally Posted by NPV

Not just his domestic performances in Ranji Trophy and Irani Trophy.

Earlier this month Hanuma made 148 Vs South Africa A in the unofficial test (4 day match).

*Hanuma may still not play a test, while Prithvi has better chances with Murali Vijay out of the squad.

Honestly, I haven't seen Vihari, but I sincerely think he would be better than Shaw - looking at his technique. We already have our latest Rohit Sharma - KL Rahul, the super talent; we cannot afford another super talent without substantial performances.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I dont understand the math.

By the way that flourish, flourished because we dont have a bowler which can finish the tail quick and i think its reasonable to expect our quickie in the team purely for bowling should be able to do that atleast once in the last 6 innings!

Completely agree. We honestly do not have much of a batting lineup, who can fight, look ugly and stand up when needed. We have a bunch of wusses really, except Kohli. My other batsman in that category is Vijay, but he finds himself out of the team. Perhaps a quickfire 30 would have perhaps save him, like it keeps saving Dhawan & Rahul.
Lets remember this English side is not a great side, we are making them look way better than what they are!

[VWAllstar]

Originally Posted by pratyush6

He is 34, not 44. And till last test he was India's best opener, how did this change?

Tell me a test match where M Vijay has been the prime contributor to the teams victory? Age is never a good parameter to talent, even I agree to this. But if not now then when do we groom young talent to be the next Gods of Indian Cricket?

As you rightly said, England team is a hit or miss but we are making them look like the 90s Australian team. Pakistan came to England and won handsomely very recently. Atleast with the current team and form we are better than them.

Even I feel Hardik is neither a good batsman nor a good bowler. He needs to be good at something other than fielding which is a must to all. Pant is raw and hence can be the x factor India has been looking for ever since Dhoni has retired. Gilly was just an example though I feel there is no one in world cricket anywhere close to what he was to his team.

Our bowling may not be lethal but tell me when have you heard Indian pace bowlers outplaying our spinners? We have heavily relied on our spinners even on green tops.

It is more like a transition phase for Indian cricket. If we show some courage in our selection then we can make three teams which can be world beaters. Look at the domestic talents we have. Just need to groom them rather than playing the same people who have been given enough opportunities and have failed to make a mark.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by pratyush6

I tuned in when we had to take a couple of wickets. He got Rashid off a no ball (again)....

Also, remember the umpires only check the no ball when wickets fall down, I wonder how many are not even called.

I answered your question about why/ how he took wickets in the test despite being primarily an ODI bowler.
As the commentators say, for the no balls this habit needs to be nipped out in the practice sessions.

Originally Posted by pratyush6

Haven't we heard this umpteen times. I honestly like the SA attack, they have everything covered - pace, bounce, swing, seam, reverse. India & English bowlers are only good when it swings and seams. There was also a great piece on cricinfo about our bowlers effectiveness.

My other statement was about this being our best ever bowling attack. Not that of South Africa or any other team. We have had only one or two good bowlers in our team while others made up numbers. Of late, there are different bowlers taking fifers.

Now that you brought up South Africa, they have no decent spin option. Give them a flat track; they still depend on the brilliance/ efforts of their pacemen to do something. So as an overall attack, I would not agree with you.

[WindRide]

Originally Posted by msdivy

.... No news after losing 2nd test and we are yet to hear what they are doing after winning the 3rd test. ....

Originally Posted by Eddy

....Since we didn't hear anything after the 2nd test and nothing till now after the 3rd, we can assume they are doing the regular stuff - practice.....

Nope.
The circus party headed by their 'leader' is off on a 4-day holiday to god knows where after 3rd test ..

"The players, who had gone into a shell after the defeat in the first two matches, had time for fans, familiar faces and there's bound to be a positive vibe in the team as they go into a four-day holiday mode."


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/65509291.cms

[PPS]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

This should by far be our strongest pace bowling attack ever.

Agreed. This is our best pace bowling attack ever & with good variety! Remember in the 90's, after Srinath & Venkatesh Prasad were done with their spells there was nothing much after that!

Originally Posted by pratyush6

if you still cannot fix a no ball problem, then you just cannot trust someone like that.

Bumrah regularly bowling no-balls is a major problem. It already cost us the Champions Trophy some years back !

We've dropped Vijay, I don't get it - our flat track bullies get selected consistently while Vijay gets dropped after an admittedly low rung of scores.

Will be difficult for Vijay to make a comeback now. Dhawan & KL as usual will score heavily in the home season & now Shaw has been kept as a back up opener.

[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by VWAllstar

Tell me a test match where M Vijay has been the prime contributor to the teams victory?

Our bowling may not be lethal but tell me when have you heard Indian pace bowlers outplaying our spinners?

It is more like a transition phase for Indian cricket.

On Vijay: Don't think any single player has that much impact to cause a victory in a Test match. Look at his records when he played last time in England, SA & Australia - they speak for themselves.

On Bowling: It's just to do with conditions. However, I do agree we have a good bowling attack, only if they could be more consistent. Bumrah, Shami & Yadav are talented but way too inconsistent.

Transition Phase: Has Saha been shown the door? Till recently he was the 'world's best keeper' in Kohli's book! There has to be some consistency with both selection and analyzing performances. How can a hundred on flat tracks hold good for selection in Eng/SA/Australia ? This has been consistently the case with Dhawan/Pujara

Originally Posted by selfdrive

I answered your question about why/ how he took wickets in the test despite being primarily an ODI bowler.

Now that you brought up South Africa, they have no decent spin option. Give them a flat track; they still depend on the brilliance/ efforts of their pacemen to do something. So as an overall attack, I would not agree with you.

On Bumrah: Saw highlights of the 2nd English innings, he did bowl far better lengths than usual, but he was still way too inconsistent. People keep telling me he is a quick learner, but the bloke has been playing 1st Class Cricket for such a long time! Let him learn in domestic games. I look at his spell and he will invariably bowl half trackers every over!

On SA attack: Agree on the SA Spinners. However, Maharaj is a very underrated spinner. Important thing, he spins the ball and keeps it simple, unlike Ashwin trying Doosras and Teesras. Usually their pace-men will do the job, until and unless you give them an absolute flat pitch with low bounce.

********
Essentially, I do believe that we have a decent team, which can be better if we really think through and give Test matches the respect it deserves. Look at scheduling, selections and preparations. Just saying that we want to be the best Test team doesn't make you one, you have to plan and prepare for it. If the selection criteria is IPL, then I guess, we will continue to be decent but we will continue to lose games where you need to fight hard. A lot of the other teams are also doing the same thing, hence the standards in general have gone down.

[suku_patel_22]

Originally Posted by pratyush6

Transition Phase: Has Saha been shown the door? Till recently he was the 'world's best keeper' in Kohli's book! There has to be some consistency with both selection and analyzing performances

Saha is injured at the moment. He is still the best keeper india has.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by pratyush6

Let him learn in domestic games

That's not how it works in India. Take Ishant for e.g. he was given 10 years in the Indian team & finally seems to have learnt, hasn't he? Bumrah is much better than Ishant from 2007 to 2016. Ishant got 70 tests to learn - let's give Bumrah at least 50 tests.

Take Kumble - never coached anyone in his life except in his backyard. He got a position in the Indian team to learn the job.

Take Shastri - never coached anyone in his life except in his backyard. He got a position in the Indian team to learn the job.

Test matches are the best place to teach people stuff - it may take time but they will learn.

Take Rishabh Pant - he will also learn in the Indian team in the next 7-8 years. I think the best thing to do is to take players before they hit puberty & select them in the Indian test team to learn - 50 test matches they would have learnt & by that time, they would also have the experience of playing 50+ tests.

[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by carboy

That's not how it works in India. Take Ishant .. Bumrah is much better than Ishant from 2007 to 2016 .. let's give Bumrah at least 50 tests.
Take Kumble - never coached anyone. ..Take Shastri
Test matches are the best place to teach people stuff - it may take time but they will learn.
Take Rishabh Pant - he will also learn in the Indian team in the next 7-8 years.

One Answer to all of those: Parthiv Patel, blooded at age 16, was hopeless and it nearly destroyed him. Even though he is a far better player now, he does not get the chances he deserves.

And, I don't think that's the way it works in India or anywhere else where the system is mature. Can cite several examples the other way - MSD, Hussey, Ajmal, Hayden, Herath.

None of them are a rule, but we select players when (1) they can contribute (2) they are probably 90% ready (3) Also depends on the talent pool.

I truly hope I am wrong about Bumrah, Pant & Prithvi Shaw, but the system needs to be fair and seen to be fair to players who toil day in and day out in Ranji Trophy. Not for a minute I believe we do not have talent in this country. This supposedly star system and favouritism needs to end.

On another note, Don't think Shastri is a coach, he is a just a fanboy of Kohli