[saket77]

Originally Posted by Leoshashi

The issue is resolved as of now. Incase I find any further issue, I will request you(BHPian Saket77) for lending my car some hours on sunday. By the way, which place do you recommend for alignment??

Great to know that Shashi. You are always welcome for a quick sunday breakfast In fact, it will be enlightening for me to know how did you manage to get the alignment done by yourself in absence of equipment. Was it done by the thread method? Or trial & error? However, do keep an eye on the tire wear. May be you can photograph the front tires now and compare it after the car has done about 500 kms on this alignment setting. Besides, keep an eye on uneven wear too.
Sorry but I couldn't play that youtube video as I am in office, but will surely watch it later.

Regards.

[Leoshashi]

Originally Posted by saket77

Great to know that Shashi. You are always welcome for a quick sunday breakfast In fact, it will be enlightening for me to know how did you manage to get the alignment done by yourself in absence of equipment. Was it done by the thread method? Or trial & error? However, do keep an eye on the tire wear. May be you can photograph the front tires now and compare it after the car has done about 500 kms on this alignment setting. Besides, keep an eye on uneven wear too.
Sorry but I couldn't play that Youtube video as I am in office, but will surely watch it later.

Regards.

Thanks for the invite.

That video is a must watch for any DIY enthusiast. All the equipment I needed was a scale, a marker, two threads and a wrench. Also I borrowed those tripods used to keep the car lifted from a nearby FNG which is currently undergoing renovation. I didn't feel safe to go under the car using those little hydraulic lifts.

Theoretically the alignment is perfect, also on trial runs, results are awesome, but what I now need to observe is uneven tyre wear.

Regards,
Shashi

[Leoshashi]

Originally Posted by saket77

Was it done by the thread method? Or trial & error? However, do keep an eye on the tire wear. May be you can photograph the front tires now and compare it after the car has done about 500 kms on this alignment setting. Besides, keep an eye on uneven wear too.
Sorry but I couldn't play that Youtube video as I am in office, but will surely watch it later.

Regards.

Even if the car(M800 DX) was behaving properly, I knew deep inside that there was some undetected issue due to which all alignment attempts were failing. Because of this, I didn't drive the car much, fearing some more complexities which might develop.
The issue was a bent engine member, due to which the engine load was not balanced properly, resulting in pull towards right hand side.

Story- I left the car for alignment at my trusted shop, and for the first time I left the car entirely in their hands for a few minutes, while I and my friend rushed to grab a movie ticket of PK. The date was 20th December 2014. Before the alignment, no issue was there. After I came back, I was surprised to see my car up on ramps while a huge crowd of mechanics were below my car. Something felt fishy to me, but upon asking, the mechanic said that since my car was one of the very rare 5 speeders in the city, they were having a look under my car. I trusted them, paid and left. Immediately afterwards, the car was violently pulling. I showed them, but since it was their closing time, they ignored my request and asked me to come the next day.
I was a bit busy due to college placements and thus couldn't attend the car. I however took care that no body drives it, as I feared mis-aligned vehicle.
To cut a long story short, each and every service station/ tyre alignment shops and dealer outlet was visited and I spent almost Rs.2000 trying to figure out what the issue was, but in vain.

One lesson I learnt, DON'T JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER. I didn't take my car to my trusted MASS(M/s Maruti Automobiles) since it didn't appear as properly organised( read fancy and high-tech). The MASS is famous for its technically sound mechanics and has received many accolades country wide, but somehow, I missed it. After hearing NO from each and every service station/ tyre alignment shop, I took my car to them. They inspected everything starting from lower arms to suspension to tyres, but didn't find a thing. Even the castor/ camber settings were perfect. They then switched to basics. The found a bent engine member and bolt, and their logic did make sense. However they asked me to come after a week, since they were overloaded. I meanwhile tried showing the car to our city dealer M/s Premsons Motors. I was lucky that I met a Maruti Engineer there who had come to inspect some axle issue on a brand new Ertiga.
He too agreed on the issue. Premsons quoted me Rs.9000 for the body job, along with 3 days time. Due to the love towards my car, I asked my dad and agreed to get it repaired from them, since they have many chassis straightening tools and a plethora of other hi-tech tools. I was again being stupid and immature here.
Meanwhile my SA from Maruti automobiles calls me and asks me about the issue. I unfolded to him the entire story. He just asks me to drop by. I have never met a more Genuine SA than him in my life.

In short, they dismantled the engine member, did some gentle hammering, reassembled everything, and viola, my beauty was again healthy. No pulling, pushing crappiness !!!!

Damage to my pocket- Rs.700 only. And this also includes an axle boot repair job. All it took was merely 2 hours!!
Once again my faith in that MASS is restored, and now never again in my life will I go anywhere.

I would like to boldly state that MARUTI is still the cheapest to own and run. The reason there is a thread running on this forum about the myth of Maruti being cheap, is the shrewdness of greedy dealers and SA, and to a large extent, the ignorance of owners, and dealers and SAs cash on our love towards our machines. Even with our Ertiga which has done about 40000kms till date is pretty cheap to own so far. It all depends on the MASS.

The reason apparent to me of this damage- The wheel alignment guys had banged the underbody of my car, and probably that was the reason they were gathered under my car.

Enough of words, let the pics do the talking.

1. The mismanaged and crowded, but excellent MASS. BTW, that's my 800 in California Gold.



2. Notice the message- Reason for Maruti's success



3. The culprit and the underbody




4. The freshly cut axle boot, which survived for 15 years/~2.7 lac kms. The others are factory installed. I got it changed as a preventive measure.



5. The bill



Sincere thanks to all the members, specially BHPian Saket77 and SS-Traveller for their valuable support.

Regards,
Shashi

[saket77]

So finally you were able to find the culprit and set up it right. And great to know that you are finally satisfied with the handling of the car now. Good on him who diagnosed the issue perfectly as it was not an easy spot in any way.

I have visited that MASS a few times and one thing that I must add is that they have sourced parts for my Zen which were difficult to come by because most of them were petty stuff like boot carpet, inner trim for the internally adjustable rear view mirror (a small triangle shaped black plastic part), weather strip etc. However, I kind of lost confidence in them because once they tried to put aside an issue related to brakes which put me off. They did a brake overhaul and still I complained of inadequate braking and hard pedal. They shrugged it off. But later, in a DIY, I zeroed it down to the vacuum check pipe and cleaned the valves inside it which sorted out the problem. However, that was about 5+ years ago.

But that was my experience. Yours turns out to be good as spotting something like this would not only demand experience on the part of SA but also their time. These days you do not find too many SAs who can devote so much time for a car.

Regards.

[Leoshashi]

Originally Posted by saket77

So finally you were able to find the culprit and set up it right. And great to know that you are finally satisfied with the handling of the car now. Good on him who diagnosed the issue perfectly as it was not an easy spot in any way.

I have visited that MASS a few times and one thing that I must add is that they have sourced parts for my Zen which were difficult to come by because most of them were petty stuff like boot carpet, inner trim for the internally adjustable rear view mirror (a small triangle shaped black plastic part), weather strip etc. However, I kind of lost confidence in them because once they tried to put aside an issue related to brakes which put me off. They did a brake overhaul and still I complained of inadequate braking and hard pedal. They shrugged it off. But later, in a DIY, I zeroed it down to the vacuum check pipe and cleaned the valves inside it which sorted out the problem. However, that was about 5+ years ago.

But that was my experience. Yours turns out to be good as spotting something like this would not only demand experience on the part of SA but also their time. These days you do not find too many SAs who can devote so much time for a car.

Regards.

Your observations are spot-on. You know that 5 Speed 800's are very much rare, and its parts are even rarer. I couldn't find accelerator cable for 5 Speed anywhere, not even the MGP distributor. But one call to them and I was in for a huge surprise. They stock each and every spare, whether quick moving or not.

There are two SAs there who are absolutely useless. A small cartoon type guy who takes all jobs causally and a tall one with specs who usually shrugs off all complaints.

But my SA Mr Dhiraj and his colleague Mr.Yadav are very knowledgeable persons. I love interacting with them, as talking to them is as enlightening as talking to a wise Professor. No nonsense talks, no funny replies and reasoning.

Can't express how much happy I am now with my car.

My beauty in all its glory, says thanks to all BHPians. A 2 months old pic BTW.






Regards

[OwnersPride]

Please suggest any good independent wheel alignment and balancing centres in Hyderabad preferrably in Kukatpally area?

Pardon my ignorance but how do they balance alloy wheels properly without any scratches/ damage?

Thanks.

[ricky_1605]

Hey guys,

Can anyone please tell me if during wheel balancing, the existing weights should be taken out before the wheel is put on the machine or it should be adjusted as it is?

Thanks

[driverace]

Originally Posted by ricky_1605

Hey guys,

Can anyone please tell me if during wheel balancing, the existing weights should be taken out before the wheel is put on the machine or it should be adjusted as it is?

Thanks

I had that same query when we took our car to the WAWB centre.

Then, the balancing guy actually showed me a practical experiment.

The wheel already had 3 weights totaling to 65 grams.
He spun the wheel & machine showed, it needed 70grams to balance the wheel.

Then, he just removed the old weights & checked again.
Now, the machine showed 40 grams weight to be added to balance the wheel.

There are 2 direct losses if the old weights are retained:

1. It may result in unnecessary weights being stuck to the wheel. May induce heavy wobbles in case the balancing goes wrong.
2. You may most probably end up paying "more" for the resulting heavier weights in balancing

Point to be noted, it's not just the "weight" but, it is "position on rim" AND the "weight".

So, it is recommended that weights be removed before balancing a wheel.
It is also recommended to remove stones/debris stuck in the tyres!

Have a read about the process here:
http://www.tirereview.com/back-to-ba...eel-balancing/

Ace.

[VCheng]

While the need for periodic wheel balancing is often emphasized, the proper technique to balance them is not often known. I wanted to present some of my thoughts in this regard.

Wheel Balancing is of two main types: static and dynamic.

Static wheel balance is done with the wheel put on a machine that finds its heavy spot and applies an equal weight opposite to it. This type of balancing removes the shimmy caused by the heavy spot. This type of balancing can work very well for narrow tires, such as motorcycle tires, but wider car and SUV tires require the second type of balancing to remove the wobble caused by heavy spots away from the center line of the wheel and tire assembly.

Dynamic wheel balance is done with a machine that spins the wheel and tire at a high speed and calculates out the weights to be applied towards the inside and outside of the wheel to cancel out both shimmy and wobble types of vibrations. More expensive machines also apply an extra roller to put a force on the tire to mimic the weight of the vehicle to take into account variable stiffness of the sidewalls. This type of road force balancing is usually recommended for high end cars operated at very high speeds, but most cars will not need it. (I am leaving out on-vehicle balancing for brevity since it is not used often.)

The should be noted that the balancing machine itself usually needs to be calibrated for accuracy at periodic intervals. Each manufacturer specifies the procedure and provides the calibrating slug as well. It is important to ask the shop if they have the necessary information and equipment to calibrate their machine.

There are two basic types of wheels: hub-centric and lug-centric. Hub-centric wheels are centered on the axle by their hubs, while lug-centric wheels are centered by their lug nuts, and not by the central hub. The correct method to mount wheels on the machine depends on which type of design they are.

The easiest way for shop to mounts the wheels is by front-coning, which saves them time but is the least accurate method. In this method, the wheel is mounted on the shaft and the centering cone is slid over from the outside and tightened. A better way to use is back-coning, where the cone is slid on the shaft first, and then the wheel is tightened over it by a special adapter on the outside. This method is preferred for hub-centric wheels and is not recommended for lug-centric wheels.

The most accurate method to properly mount the wheels for balancing is by using a back-cone and a proper flange adapter where the wheel is held in by slugs of the proper size in the lug nut holes from the outside.

A good shop will be able to differentiate between the two types of wheels and have the proper cones and flange adapters to accurately mount the wheels.

After a wheel has been properly mounted on the machine, the next step is to do a centering check. The wheel is spun and location noted. Then it is loosened and rotated 180 degrees on the shaft and tightened again before being spun. This will enable to machine to determine if it has been centered properly or not. Most shops skip this step to save time, and it is not the proper technique.

Then, it is figured out where to apply the weights, depending on the type. Some wheels use clip-on weights, some use stick-on weights, and some can use a combination. Stick-on weights are best because they do not damage the wheels in the long run, while clip-on weights can trap salt and debris and initiate corrosion, especially if they are hammered on or pulled off without proper care with the correct tools. Clip-on weights must be of the proper cross-section, for example, most Japanese steel wheels use the FN profile. A good shop will have the proper profile gauge and the necessary weights in several sizes to do a good job.

Some machines can even figure out how to apply all the weights from the inside so that no weights are visible from the outside, and also how to hide the weights behind spokes. Ask the shop if they can offer these options.

For stick-on weights, make sure that the surface is properly cleaned and dried before they are applied, otherwise they will not stick and may fall off, causing vibrations. Also make sure that all the old weights are taken off before the wheel is spun on the machine, otherwise you will end up with a ugly mass of weights on the wheel.

The last step is to spin the tire/wheel on the machine and apply the indicated weights. Then the tire is spun again and the machine should indicate a zeroed out condition for both inside and outside weights. Usually a second round of corrective weights are needed before the error is less than 10 grams or so. This accuracy is good enough for 100-140 kph. Higher speeds will require the errors to be below 5 grams or so, depending on the size and weight of the tire, and the design of the vehicle suspension.

I wish everyone smooth motoring!

[Happysmiles]

Which machine gives the most accurate balancing and alignment?

I just got my car done on the Hunter machine. Is that the best in the market?

[Jeroen]

Thanks, interesting write up. As you mention it is not down to having the machine, you really need somebody who is knowledgable too.
Back in Europe all shops, even relatively small ones will have a dynamic wheel balancing machine these days. They can handle just about any size tire you will find on road cars.

There is a third type of balancing, which is essentially dynamic, but the wheel is left on the car. Have a look at this video

http://youtu.be/7UP97bO-MpU

Jeroen

[VCheng]

Originally Posted by Happysmiles

Which machine gives the most accurate balancing and alignment?

I just got my car done on the Hunter machine. Is that the best in the market?

Hunter machines are excellent and I personally prefer them, but there are many other good makes on the market. Any machine can only give smooth results if it is calibrated and used properly, as I mentioned above. Most of the problems arise from improper mounting of the wheel on the machine since getting it right takes time.

[swift_guy]

One question guys :

I have a Swift which has done ~10k kms since the last alignment and balancing session. I do not feel that the car is deviating from line while driving, i.e. it drives normally. Do I still need to get alignment or balancing done or wait till I face some issue?

In the other car Duster, we had problems of the car moving to left (which needed regular correction from steering) and had got alignment and balancing done. In previous car, we used to get it done every 5k kms.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by swift_guy

Do I still need to get alignment or balancing done or wait till I face some issue?

It depends but no harm in getting it done.

In my Swift, I do the Wheel alignment, balancing and rotation every 5K kms and it costs me 500 bucks all inclusive.

Prolongs tyre life and keeps the tyre and suspension healthy and giving me a smooth drive always.

[swift_guy]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

It depends but no harm in getting it done.

In my Swift, I do the Wheel alignment, balancing and rotation every 5K kms and it costs me 500 bucks all inclusive.

Prolongs tyre life and keeps the tyre and suspension healthy and giving me a smooth drive always.

Thanks. Here it costs around 800 bucks but major problem is that it takes around 3-4 hours because of the rush.

I think that some other person might be able to detect problems better because I would have adjusted to any minor problems related to alignment and balancing as these problems occur and increase gradually. Right?

Do you have any tips on detecting problems related to alignment/balancing of tyres? I travel on well paved roads mostly.

One last question - I do 4 tyre rotation (as given in manual) every 5k kms. Is it fine or 10k should be ideal?